APFA vs. AFA

[737823]

AFA won't get much support on the AA property, most AAers know what they are trying to pull off. Again, AFA politics/structure isn't exactly democratic/transparent and they haven't made headway at UA while other groups have. The only support they will likely get is from the ex-TWA folks and people like Rock Salomon who have devoted their careers AA to discrediting APFA. The TWA seniority is done, the IAM screwed them unfortunately but they can't retroactively change DOH nor will that make up for the injustice the IAM caused.

Josh

 

[kirkpatrick]

I don't mean to rehash the seniority issue with regard to TWA.  Suffice it to say that APFA will get little if any support from any ex-TWA person.  Over doesn't mean forgotten.
 
MK

 

[737823]

I don't mean to rehash the seniority issue with regard to TWA.  Suffice it to say that APFA will get little if any support from any ex-TWA person.  Over doesn't mean forgotten.
 
MK

Fair enough, if at some point the IAM were to come along would they support them? Not likely given the no raid clause but it could happen in the future. FWIW, throughout the UA and DL AFA campaigns they brought up the IAM and TWA seniority. Now of course there are IAM cards going at DL the non-union activists are similarly banging that drum loudly.

Josh

 

[jimntx]

If I remember correctly, it was probably 6.5 weeks.

Alert the media, the all-knowing perfect senior flight attendant is wrong. I started training in last week of July, 2000 (I went back and looked). I graduated Sept. 6, 2000. 5.5 weeks.

 

[IORFA]

Did you miss the early bird special tonight? I clearly said if I remember correctly. I guess I was wrong. However I am still pretty sure that everyone from 1998-2001 were in training for 6.5 weeks. I don't remember the training being shortened at any time then. You really are getting more obstinate through the years and ever more argumentative. Either right or completely wrong. Doesn't matter since you are convinced that your "hire date" will never be adjusted for that time. So when it does, make sure you only get 5.5.

 

[kirkpatrick]

Josh, the things I mentioned happened after the APFA had been designated the union under single carrier status, so the TWA people were represented by APFA and paying dues just as the others were.  The IAM may have botched the court case, but the pilots and mechanics/ramp service also waived their scope clauses and still got something. 
 
Allegheny-Mohawk said no group should receive "windfall seniority", which is exactly what APFA members got.  Their percentile on the seniority list went way up and we acted as "furlough fodder" beneath them.
 
MK

 

[IORFA]

I hear your point, but I wouldn't say the pilots got much of anything. The vast majority that got any seniority were unable to do much as the fences were in place long enough that most would be retired before they could do much of anything. I did go back and read your post and a few things of what you point to happened while you were not APFA members. The STL base thing said if you were gone for more than 2 years from the base, you lost TW seniority there. If you were furloughed for more than 2 years, then the threshold was met. I'm sure it was purposely vague, but if you felt that you were harmed, why didn't you guys sue? I always was under the impression that you would rather be in NYC since you live there. So would you rather commute? Just trying to understand. The A & M language you state is all well and good, but it wasn't part of the equation. So, unfortunately didn't apply. In the end, I'm very happy so many got the chance to return if they wanted and hope that you are all happy to be working as F/A's again! It must not be that bad since such a high percentage came back. Something like 90%.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

I don't mean to rehash the seniority issue with regard to TWA.  Suffice it to say that APFA will get little if any support from any ex-TWA person.  Over doesn't mean forgotten.
 
MK

 
I don't have a dog in the fight over the TWA seniority issue. I'm so junior it wouldn't have any effect on me either way. But coming from a TWA family I can understand your grief. But with all due respect, hating on APFA because they were effective at representing their membership seems counterproductive. Now, you are an APFA member. Do you not want a strong union to safeguard your interests going forward with this new merger? What is the point in holding a personal grudge? What will that accomplish for any of us?

 

[RJcasualty]

I'll put it gently to you. Sherman's March through Georgia tilted the political landscape there for over a hundred years. 

 

[kirkpatrick]

IORFA, the pilots (captains anyway) were slotted in starting behind #3000 and about one for eight after that.  It may not have been much, and most ex-TWA weren't happy with it, but it was something.  If APFA had given us one for three or four people would still be pissed, but it would have been far better than nothing, and then-current APFA members still would have had their percentile positions raised. 
 
True that I was never in STL and never intended to be, but it still serves as an example of how they tried, and succeeded, to screw us.  That, the furlough pay and the placement of the equity window which left us with so much left happened years after APFA began to represent us.  The fact that we came back doesn't justify APFA's actions.  We came back for the same reason you and the other original AAs have stuck around.  We like our jobs
 
Those of you who've followed my posts over the years know I'm not a whiner.  I'm simply trying to explain why there's bad blood between us and APFA. 
 
Astra, AFA has managed a contract at US that is superior in virtually all ways to APFA's. You'll notice I said earlier nobody has me in their pocket yet.  Let's see some proposals.
 
RJ, you said it right.
 
MK

 

[IORFA]

Fair enough. I still think the pilot slotting had no real effect, except window dressing. As it had zero effect for all practical purposes to any of them. APFA has stated that the equity is for payment for the lack of a contract for all those years. Thus it is all based on W2 earnings during that time. Seems fair enough to me. Also, it was decided by the President that the former TW F/A's wanted. She garnered far fewer "native" f/a votes. So, at times I feel that what ever decision that APFA makes that the former TW don't like they play the discrimination card. It has gotten really old and tired to hear. It obviously isn't all bad here. As evidenced by all that are still here and by the large numbers that clamored to come back for all those years and eventually came back. I don't know anyone who harbors ill will toward you guys. Never heard any talk since the days when you guys came in stomping about date of hire and we're willing to burn the village down to get it. So in essence, maybe the problem started in 2001 with your radical set. There is no yeti or Area 51 here. I wish the supposed conspiracy against the former TW would stop being propagated.

 

[kirkpatrick]

IORFA, how can you say that with a straight face?  That the pilot slotting had no real effect (I'm still unable to backquote due to problems with the new IE 11).  If you were the senior TWA pilot would you rather be #3001 or #10001?  Of course it had an effect.
 
I realize things aren't all bad here.  In fact, better money, lack of balancing and position bidding make it a bit better than TWA flying, in my book, except for having little seniority.  My purpose, as I said, is not to rehash the entire seniority question, but to explain to those who might not understand why virtually no TWA FA will support APFA.  Call it karma or whatever, but it's true.
 
MK

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

My purpose, as I said, is not to rehash the entire seniority question, but to explain to those who might not understand why virtually no TWA FA will support APFA.  Call it karma or whatever, but it's true.
 
MK

 
I appreciate what you are saying, by the same token I hope you appreciate when I try to explain how hating APFA just for the sake of hating them is not very productive for our work group as a whole.
 
 

Astra, AFA has managed a contract at US that is superior in virtually all ways to APFA's. You'll notice I said earlier nobody has me in their pocket yet.  Let's see some proposals.

 
Don't forget, you said this earlier:
 

 
 
If an election occurs I'll almost certainly vote for the AFA.

 

[RJcasualty]

OK. Would this pass muster:   "Thank God I was stapled otherwise there would have been no legal curbs [re: Bond-McCaskill] for indy unions such as APFA to do as it wished to AFA or any other union in future mergers or acquisitions..."

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

OK. Would this pass muster:   "Thank God I was stapled otherwise there would have been no legal curbs [re: Bond-McCaskill] for indy unions such as APFA to do as it wished to AFA or any other union in future mergers or acquisitions..."

 
Which union represents you right now?