APFA vs. AFA

[AdAstraPerAspera]

I think it is very important to take things into perspective. The union dues increase argument is really ridiculous "7 bucks". For that extra seven bucks AFA members enjoy much better medical insurance, much better work rules, more flexible use of vacation days, affiliation with the AFL/CIO and the list goes on. Please take the time to review the comparison charts...that is all I am saying.

And I am not nescessarily AFAs biggest fan, so don't think I am anti APFA. But I am not really seeing a lot of things to cheer about in the APFA contract. For instance how the vacation days must be used or the amount of sick time accrual monthly. I believe the scheduling rules at AA are horrible. But thats just me. Everyone really needs to think long term.

As for an industry standard contract...it sounds good while you are in BK, but you have to consider what "industry standard" really means in the airline industry. DL Bankrupt, UA Bankrupt so any industry standard contract is based upon bankrupt airline's standards. Management's dream come true. Let's not be shortsighted, let's take the best from both. Why not just merge the two unions and start working toward a better future all together. Kumbaya

 
It's not the amount of the dues that is the problem, it's the imperialist way they go about increasing them. Dues increases at APFA have to be voted in by the membership. It's part of the constitution. Whereas, when I was an AFA member in 2011, my dues were increased arbitrarily simply because AFA National lost dues income from the Northwest flight attendants. This was galling. How were my interests being safeguarded in this case?
 
Not to mention, when we elected AFA as our bargaining rep in 2010, all the negotiators did was rubber stamp our existing work rules already in place to form a contract. They didn't even bother trying to improve the language.
 
After that fiasco, plus paying addl dues to cover the cost of the failed AFA election at Delta, me and a lot of other crew were wondering what we were paying AFA for…and what they were doing with all our money.
 
Transparency should be paramount in any union. I've been a member of AFA and APFA, and I can say for sure, APFA has more of it.
 
And I'm not interested in any national union affiliation. I'm a flight attendant, not a communications worker (whatever that is).

 

[700UW]

How is it that APFA did all that to you when the IAM was the union that waived the protection you had? APFA worked with what has given to them to integrate the seniority lists. APFA has and had an obligation to represent the interests of the AA F/As, not the TWA F/As after the IAM screwed you guys over.

Josh

Hey JP Morgan fraud, every union at TWA was forced by AA to waive their LPPs or TWA would have gone out of business with Chapter 7 instead of Chapter 11.
 
And what was written about the APFA is true, thats what happened, so are you going to keep lying and post misinformation?
 
And the IAM spend over $5 million alone on trying to help the former TW FAs, even though they werent even IAM members anymore.
 
So lets see, everyone out of work, or acquired by AA, thats the choice the union had, and you cant say its about dues money as they werent IAM members anymore.

 

[jimntx]

Jimntx, as I and IORFA said, the adjustment for AA seniority was on the discussion table and agreed to in principle, before Mr Holmin hit his big ol' red reset button. It wasn't going to be a full 8 1/2 weeks, but it was something fair enough. But I suppose everything is all up in the air once again…all the more reason, for me anyway, to regard AFA's agenda as disingenuous going forward.

I understand that, but DOH is DOH is DOH. My original DOH is 9/7/2000. My "bidding" seniority (I think is also called occupational seniority) is still 9/7/2000. But, my company seniority for benefits, etc. is 1/24/2002 to adjust for my 17-month furlough. So, it's going to come down to paraphrasing President Clinton..."Define DOH." US Airways flight attendants who have a company seniority prior to 1/24/2002 will probably want to use the company seniority DOH as opposed to "original" or "bidding" DOH.

I had a feeling from the beginning that this was not going to be a case of "let's all embrace and call each other thou." The road to a fully combined/merged airline is not going to be pretty. Just for starters, the benefit differentials between us and the LCC folk. Starting 01JAN, I'm supposed to get a 10% contribution to my 401-K per the CLA. The LCC folk get something like 3% match to theirs. Is that fair? And, where is the money coming from? No one has answered that yet other than to say from the "synergy" of the combination. Well, at Kroger they accept Credit and Debit cards, checks, or cash, but not synergy.

Also, while giving APFA full credit for only doing what the members want, you have to cut Mr. Holmin a little slack. For all we know, he may have gotten major negative feedback from his members as to the direction that the talks were going. You have to remember that with LCC f/as, seniority comes first, last, and everything in between. I have a close friend here in Dallas who is a senior LCC f/a. His only comment when I mentioned something about wondering how the workgroups would be combined, was "It had better be straight date of hire."

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Just for starters, the benefit differentials between us and the LCC folk. Starting 01JAN, I'm supposed to get a 10% contribution to my 401-K per the CLA. The LCC folk get something like 3% match to theirs. 

 
I know, this is why I get so confused when I hear some US crew crowing about their "amazing benefits"
 
 

Also, while giving APFA full credit for only doing what the members want, you have to cut Mr. Holmin a little slack. For all we know, he may have gotten major negative feedback from his members as to the direction that the talks were going. You have to remember that with LCC f/as, seniority comes first, last, and everything in between. I have a close friend here in Dallas who is a senior LCC f/a. His only comment when I mentioned something about wondering how the workgroups would be combined, was "It had better be straight date of hire."

 
It's not going to feel very fair to me if a US fa hired after me gets put ahead of me on the list.

 

[jimntx]

I know, this is why I get so confused when I hear some US crew crowing about their "amazing benefits"
 
 
 
It's not going to feel very fair to me if a US fa hired after me gets put ahead of me on the list.

But, you see the powers that be on our side of the aisle say that you weren't "hired" until the day after your graduation from training when you reported to base. Being offered a slot in the training class and being hired by AA are two separate events as far as AMR corporation is concerned. I don't think that is going to change.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Well on that very note, why do I have to cut Holmin any slack at all? Why does he think he has the math in his favor to go around pushing reset buttons? Negative feedback or no, I don't know where he thinks his leverage is coming from, but he is in no position to negotiate. 16,000 AA flight attendants aren't going to be happy about 7,000 US flight attendants with hired *after* them going ahead of them on the list.
 
Ok fine, let's say they have the representation election they want. Here's what's going to happen: APFA will win and become the sole bargaining unit for the combined group. The contract they negotiate will be up to a vote, and it will pass, and there will be some opposition, mainly from the US side. If the future is already written, why is an election necessary when we know all it will provide for us is rancor, animosity, and a colossal waste of time when time is precisely what we need to get the greatest leverage in contract negotiations?
 
The contract we negotiate now will be a much better one than the one we have to negotiate 14 to 24 months later after a divisive election campaign with plenty of hurt feelings and perhaps higher oil prices or a dimming economy (or when all the synergy fails to materialize, right jim?)

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Roger Holmin is behaving irrationally because AFA's desperation is showing.

 

[jimntx]

Well, I admire your confidence in the belief that the next contract will be better than the current one. Let's hope that you are right. And, do you not give the LCC flight attendants who have a DOH senior to you the right to expect that you will not go ahead of them?

LCC started hiring again while we still had flight attendants (both nAAtive and former TW) still on furlough. I don't think that in the long run there will be any hope of a combined airline if the APFA and its members take the approach that "we have the most votes therefore we will decide everything. The way we do it is the only acceptable way."

 

[johnny kat]

Regardless of which union is ultimately the bargaining agent for the new AA. That union will have a responsibility to take the best of both contracts as a basis for bargaining for the first post bankruptcy contract at AA. The 10 percent 401k contribution is talked about often and US side would love to have it. You have to keep in mind that the contract provisions currently in place at US will run for the next five years irregardless of the name on the union office door. If it is APFA then they will have to adhere to the current rules for the US side. It is the law. During that time the current APFA folks will see in reality and day to day the differences between the two. So, it is important not to get too wrapped up and emotional about all this stuff, there are many labor laws in place that will dictate how it goes irregardless of union. Eventually it will sort itself out.


As for seniroity it has already been agreed upon. It is the first day of your training class at your respective airline. Some adjustments will have to be made to the AA side. It is just my opinion but I think eventually the TWA folks will be placed at their original TW seniority (and most definately if we are AFA).

I have to say that this forum is not the best place for these discussions when all the good info is provided at APFA and AFA websites, you tube and working peeps. Good luck to us all.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Regardless of which union is ultimately the bargaining agent for the new AA. That union will have a responsibility to take the best of both contracts as a basis for bargaining for the first post bankruptcy contract at AA. 

 
Agreed 100%, totally. I also believe, like I told Jim, that a hypothetical contract we negotiate asap will be a better contract than a hypothetical contract negotiated after a brutal union battle with lots of hurt feelings and lingering animosity between the work groups

 

[johnny kat]

Correction: The US CBA will remain in effect until a joint CBA is negotiated. I hope the following will shed some light on things. This was sent by AFA yesterday:


AA/US Merger Q & A's

Yesterday, the Company released a series of merger-related FAQ's for all employees. Here are a few of the questions that relate to our Flight Attendant workgroup. This is the first of a series of many FAQ's that will be provided for our Flight Attendants in the upcoming weeks and months.

Q: What changes will Flight Attendants experience at the time of Merger Close?
There won’t be many other significant changes in your day‐to‐day work right away. Operationally we will continue to run as two separate airlines until we receive a Single Operating Certificate, which could take as long as 18 to 24 months.

Q: Does that mean we’re all employees of American Airlines now?
We’re all part of the new American family, but to be clear, American Airlines Group Inc. is a parent Company and we’re still operating two separate airlines. Employees at each airline will continue to be employed by their legacy carrier until we obtain a Single Operating Certificate.

Q: Does merger close mean American and US Airways are one airline?
Not yet. We’re one Company, but still very much running two separate airlines, until we become a unified airline with a Single Operating Certificate (SOC). Legally closing our merger is only the start of a long journey toward integrating workgroups’ seniority lists, IT infrastructures, operational and policy plans and more.

Q: What contractual changes will US Airways Flight Attendants experience at the time of merger close?
US Airways Flight Attendants will continue to be covered by their current CBA until a Joint CBA (JCBA) is reached that will cover all Flight Attendants at the new American Airlines.

Q: When will US Airways Flight Attendants be offered a Voluntary Early Out Program (VEOP)?
The official details of the VEOP are planned to be announced on Jan. 6, 2014. To be eligible, a Flight Attendant must have fifteen (15) or more years of Company seniority AND be in active status on the date the VEOP is awarded and the date the Flight Attendant is released from the Company. Active is defined as in regular pay status with US Airways (including paid (using sick time) Medical or Maternity leave) or on FMLA, Military, Maternity, Adoption or Paternity leave and not on any other unpaid leave of absence. Additional details can be found in the CBA, Side letter #1.

Q: Will there be any changes to the Flight Attendant jumpseat policy or the Flight Attendant/Pilot reciprocal cabin jumpseat policy?
For both Flight Attendant groups, there will be no immediate changes to either of the current jumpseat policies. Any change to these policies will need to be agreed upon by the unions and company.

Q. How will the merger affect the new uniform rollout?
We are thrilled to continue our joint collaboration with the design duo KAUFMANFRANCO to create new uniforms for our pilots, flight attendants, airport agents and club and premium service team members. Our uniform committee and workgroup designees are now working with the designers to create prototypes and review potential fabric choices.

Q: How will Flight Attendants find out about the changes customers will experience in conjunction with the merger so we can best serve them on flights?
The Company will provide Flight Attendants with more information about the changes customers can expect in the next several weeks. Changes for customers will go into effect in early January, and Flight Attendant ambassadors who have received special training will be in the operations areas to help answer Flight Attendant questions.

Q. How will travel privileges change for the legacy American and US Airways teams?
The new American will have one of the best employee travel programs in the industry, though combining our travel programs and aligning technology will take some time. We’ve already aligned our dress code (yes, you can now wear jeans in First Class) and policy on employees’ college‐aged children (for example, if your children are in school or opt for military or missionary service, they still qualify for your travel privileges until they are 24). Starting Dec. 10, employee fares on myIDTravel between our two airlines will be zeroed out. For now, everything else about each legacy airline’s travel program, including fees and retiree privileges, remain the same.

Q. When will the two carriers’ fleets be combined and how many aircraft will the new American have?
Although we are now one company, we will continue operating as two separate carriers for the time being. It’s important to recognize that the integration process will take some time to complete, including harmonizing our fleet.




Association of Flight Attendants-CWA at US Airways | www.afausa.org |

 

[jimntx]

As for seniroity it has already been agreed upon. It is the first day of your training class at your respective airline. Some adjustments will have to be made to the AA side. It is just my opinion but I think eventually the TWA folks will be placed at their original TW seniority (and most definately if we are AFA).

Well, that certainly works for me. If 1st day of training is DOH, then that adds about 5 or 6 weeks to my seniority. I started training in July, 2000, and I think the length of training was something like 5.5 weeks. Training was shorter then because we were only trained on domestic equipment and procedures.

 

[IORFA]

Regardless of which union is ultimately the bargaining agent for the new AA. That union will have a responsibility to take the best of both contracts as a basis for bargaining for the first post bankruptcy contract at AA. The 10 percent 401k contribution is talked about often and US side would love to have it. You have to keep in mind that the contract provisions currently in place at US will run for the next five years irregardless of the name on the union office door. If it is APFA then they will have to adhere to the current rules for the US side. It is the law. During that time the current APFA folks will see in reality and day to day the differences between the two. So, it is important not to get too wrapped up and emotional about all this stuff, there are many labor laws in place that will dictate how it goes irregardless of union. Eventually it will sort itself out.As for seniroity it has already been agreed upon. It is the first day of your training class at your respective airline. Some adjustments will have to be made to the AA side. It is just my opinion but I think eventually the TWA folks will be placed at their original TW seniority (and most definately if we are AFA).I have to say that this forum is not the best place for these discussions when all the good info is provided at APFA and AFA websites, you tube and working peeps. Good luck to us all.

Agreed that the decision on seniority and integration is decided and that AA F/A's will get a little adjustment to our "hire" date to account for the training difference. Now that the information is and has been all over the internet and respective union websites, maybe jimntx will believe it. Probably not, but we can hope. I get the feeling he just likes to argue and stomp his feet just to hear himself talk. Like WT. HOWEVER, there is no way that the former TW, now AA F/A's will get any of their seniority back. No matter if AFA wins some miraculous election or not. AA will shut down if that happens.

 

[IORFA]

Also, APFA has stated numerous times that their opener would incorporate the very best of BOTH combined contracts. Why would anyone think different? That only makes sense. Why would you start negotiating with yourself in a hole? Only people that pay zero attention would actually think either union would ignore the other contracts good to great items.

 

[IORFA]

Well, that certainly works for me. If 1st day of training is DOH, then that adds about 5 or 6 weeks to my seniority. I started training in July, 2000, and I think the length of training was something like 5.5 weeks. Training was shorter then because we were only trained on domestic equipment and procedures.

If I remember correctly, it was probably 6.5 weeks.