APA Signs accord.

[ArtTang]

And no flight attendant better think of touching a pilots crew meal if he or she declines to eat it during a flight. The pilots bargained for that meal, and a flight attendant has no right to it even if its not going to be eaten!

AC AA LA FA, I really don't understand the angst. How is this any different from the late 1990's when the TWU bargained for, and got the right to occupy a cockpit jumpseat (pre 911) if it was unoccupied?

I also don't understand the motivations of THB to stir the pot either. As the hotline states, the APFA bargained for the right to occupy the CJS if it is unoccupied. The pilots are attempting to do the same and be the next group in line behind the F/A's for the seat. Nothing more. The TWU bargained for in section 6 and got the cockpit jumpseat even though it is "owned" by the pilots. Why the nonsense?

And the reference to Part One? What the hell is that about? Thats a manual that gets updated by the company with the FAA's approval. APFA doesn't have squat input on that, just like the APA doesn't have any input on their Part One when the mechanics got cockpit jumpseat.

I believe the crux of the argument stems from the manner in which the proposal has been presented. The pilots' union could have made the request to utilize unoccupied cabin jumpseats more palatable had they offered reciprocity. As a couple of posters have pointed out, it does not seem to be a FAA rule that bars flight attendants from riding in the cockpit. If there is such a ban, it has yet to be confirmed. Can anyone supply any factual data regarding the matter? I cannot speak for all flight attendants, but I imagine that most would be on board with the APA's proposal if there were reciprocity.

Had the pilots offered to extend the same courtesy to the flight attendants, it probably would never have been an issue, but this is not the case. To add salt to the wound, the pilots' union has requested boarding priority over the flight attendants when the crews deadhead together. Such a request can only result in divisiveness between the work groups. I agree the current system is broken, but I feel the fairest way to remedy it would be to honor seniority for deadheading. This way, there is no imposed hierarchy, and seniority...which most deserves to be honored (at least in this industry)...is rewarded. So, if the captain is senior to everyone else, s/he should get first crack at the business class seat. However, if the number 6 flight attendant happens to be senior, then s/he should be first in line for it. This is fair.

This whole issue goes back further. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was not too long ago the pilots' union attempted to negotiate for its members and their families higher boarding priority over other employees for non-rev pass riding (in other words, the agents, mechanics, and flight attendants, etc., would all be boarded after the pilots and their families). For obvious reasons, this did not sit well with the other employees, and the current proposal submitted to the company by the APA seems to echo this sentiment of superiority. Some of my pilot friends were embarrassed when the APA attempted to negotiate this deal because they knew it was divisive and inherently unfair. So, I think that if one looks at the proposal in this light, it becomes clearer why many of the flight attendants are 'chafed' by it. Just my two cents worth.

Peace,
Art Tang
IMA

 

[exB717Flyer]

Jet Blue allows their flight attendants to jumpseat in the cockpit.

Didn't know that. I guess that makes them the exception.

 

[AC AA LA FA]

I believe the crux of the argument stems from the manner in which the proposal has been presented. The pilots' union could have made the request to utilize unoccupied cabin jumpseats more palatable had they offered reciprocity. As a couple of posters have pointed out, it does not seem to be a FAA rule that bars flight attendants from riding in the cockpit. If there is such a ban, it has yet to be confirmed. Can anyone supply any factual data regarding the matter? I cannot speak for all flight attendants, but I imagine that most would be on board with the APA's proposal if there were reciprocity.

Had the pilots offered to extend the same courtesy to the flight attendants, it probably would never have been an issue, but this is not the case. To add salt to the wound, the pilots' union has requested boarding priority over the flight attendants when the crews deadhead together. Such a request can only result in divisiveness between the work groups. I agree the current system is broken, but I feel the fairest way to remedy it would be to honor seniority for deadheading. This way, there is no imposed hierarchy, and seniority...which most deserves to be honored (at least in this industry)...is rewarded. So, if the captain is senior to everyone else, s/he should get first crack at the business class seat. However, if the number 6 flight attendant happens to be senior, then s/he should be first in line for it. This is fair.

This whole issue goes back further. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was not too long ago the pilots' union attempted to negotiate for its members and their families higher boarding priority over other employees for non-rev pass riding (in other words, the agents, mechanics, and flight attendants, etc., would all be boarded after the pilots and their families). For obvious reasons, this did not sit well with the other employees, and the current proposal submitted to the company by the APA seems to echo this sentiment of superiority. Some of my pilot friends were embarrassed when the APA attempted to negotiate this deal because they knew it was divisive and inherently unfair. So, I think that if one looks at the proposal in this light, it becomes clearer why many of the flight attendants are 'chafed' by it. Just my two cents worth.

Peace,
Art Tang
IMA

Thank you Art, I couldnt have said it better.

 

[nbmcg01]

At America West (where I work) and I'm sure some other carriers the cabin jump seat is available to non-reving pilots if no FA wants it. It's a no-harm item. No airlines allow FAs to occupy the cockpit JS. I would have no problem with it but I don't think the FAA would ever approve of it.

But is ok for Co executives to occupy the cockpit jumpseat? Hummmm

 

[AAStew]

But is ok for Co executives to occupy the cockpit jumpseat? Hummmm

I read the entire list of demands last night. Internet at layovers, Boarding Priority over F/a's while deadheading to work with a first class seat, minimum business coming back. They don't want to be tired....
First of all the company does not deadhead them anywhere that would take them over their legal FAA mandated and contractual limitations. If they are being deadheaded overseas or transcon, they have legally mandated rest periods. If they are deadheading to cover a New York trip from Miami, why in the world would they need a First Class Seat? Displace a passenger for their sweet tushies? No, they just want to make sure they are recognized as the leaders they are...(please read with a huge note of sarcasm). The majority of these guys I could never count on to lead when they need to. As to how some of them passed their psych test to become FDO's is beyond me. In fact I know a couple who have failed and some have gone back to take it again.
It is just a case of the pilots being primadonas again, to the expense of their coworkers and at this point passengers. Eventually they will learn they are not as indispensible as they think they are. (don't worry I have no illusions about my worth to the company)

 

[ArtTang]

I read the entire list of demands last night. Internet at layovers, Boarding Priority over F/a's while deadheading to work with a first class seat, minimum business coming back. They don't want to be tired....
First of all the company does not deadhead them anywhere that would take them over their legal FAA mandated and contractual limitations. If they are being deadheaded overseas or transcon, they have legally mandated rest periods. If they are deadheading to cover a New York trip from Miami, why in the world would they need a First Class Seat? Displace a passenger for their sweet tushies? No, they just want to make sure they are recognized as the leaders they are...(please read with a huge note of sarcasm). The majority of these guys I could never count on to lead when they need to. As to how some of them passed their psych test to become FDO's is beyond me. In fact I know a couple who have failed and some have gone back to take it again.
It is just a case of the pilots being primadonas again, to the expense of their coworkers and at this point passengers. Eventually they will learn they are not as indispensible as they think they are. (don't worry I have no illusions about my worth to the company)

Whereas I realize AAStew does not characterize 'all' pilots in the same way, I think the overall sentiment is clear. It probably reflects the feeling engendered among many flight attendants by the pilots' proposal.

I always believe it is important to give each person the benefit of the doubt before judging him/her just because of a uniform. If they respect me I am happy to respect them. The APA's current proposal, however, does not respect me or my fellow flight attendants. As I stated, some of my friends who are pilots were unhappy and very embarrassed when their union once tried to negotiate higher boarding priority for them over other employees, and I imagine they feel the same way about this latest proposal. I don't know.

Well, if AAStew's comments are any indication of what the general reception on the line is going to be to the APA's proposal, it's going to be a long month! Glad I'm on vacation

Peace,
Art Tang
IMA

 

[exB717Flyer]

But is ok for Co executives to occupy the cockpit jumpseat? Hummmm

Different issue. And irrelevant.

 

[nbmcg01]

Different issue. And irrelevant.

Not really. The issue is whether empty jumpseat authority will be extended to the AA f/as in the cockpit. My guess is no.

I think the other work groups need to note that there is only one "pie" and with the APAs early openers, how much will be left after the pilots get their "fair" share?

Jumpseat use should be free and if there are open cabin seats, those should be filled in seniority order, period.

The AA pilots have apparently lost control of their airplanes when working so now want to control boarding and seat order when deadheading. I guess f/as don't "get tired" so they should not enter into the mix on who should be comfortable while deadheading. I think all would be better served if provisions were negotiated that put high cost on deadheads. Maybe the Co wouldn't be so quick to ship everyone all over the place to work their flights.

 

[Mach85ER]

Art Tang,

The past attempt to negotiate non-rev priority by APA was inflamed by the company. It keeps resurfacing on this board and most fail to understand why APA did it.
If you remember at the time, AMR had multiple divisions of employees, many who had nothing to do with the airline except using it as a cash cow.(French trains and car reservations ring a bell) These groups all had pass travel and priority over the AA airline employees if they checked in 1 minute earlier.
APA's intent was to get the airline employees priority, not just the pilots. Big problem was the APA couldn't negotiate for other union and non-union groups, so only pilot priority was listed. The goal was to follow in the steps of obtaining Direct Deposit. The pilots got that in negotiations and instead of two payroll systems, gave it to everybody. You're all welcome
The morning after APA informed the company, they handed APA's proposal out to every FA, which spun them up immediately. The legend continues on this board. APA was also at fault for not communicating with the other unions and it's own memebers about it. Proof of this is your pilot friends.



AAStew,

Ignorant and stupid is no way to go through life, even as a FA. Those that got turned down by the FFDO process included a USAF Fighter Squadron commander who flew missions over NYC in a missile armed fighter. TSA decided he wasn't trustworthy.
I didn't know that the psychological testing application process was public knowledge? Maybe you have forgotten about the definition of SSI in your pubs.

You are a complete fool.

 

[AAviator]

Art,
Are you versed in the (cough, rumored) recent firing(s) of 2 MIA based F/A's and the events and circumstances that led to the firing(s)? It all began with a deadhead from what I understand.

Which leads me again to question why the APFA chose to run the cabin jumpseat up the flagpole, and not the deadhead priority?

 

[jimntx]

Jumpseat use should be free and if there are open cabin seats, those should be filled in seniority order, period.

I still would like to see other airline f/as get priority on the jumpseats before anyone else. However, if the j/s is not being used, I see no reason why another company employee should not be allowed to use it. SWA lets any company employee use the j/s if no f/a needs it. I beleive the only FAA stipulation is that anyone who is not j/s qualified must be instructed in the operation of any applicable emergency exit--just like we do with the window exits.

AFAIK, AA uses check-in time forseat assignment on DH travel as well as non-rev. Technically, you don't have to check in until 30 minutes prior to departure for DH flights, but that means you are checking in when the agents are trying to get the boarding process started. As a courtesy to the agents, I try to get to the gate as early as possible if I am DH. And, on a full flight, can't you just see some CA walking up to the gate at boarding time, demanding "his" F/C seat, and then the agent has to reseat a revenue passenger in coach or deny them boarding to accomodate the DH.

By the way, it is company policy that DH employees are to be accomodated in F/C whenever possible; though, I have found that a few agents need to be reminded of that fact at times. But, most of the time when I am A1 the agent has already assigned me a F/C seat if one is available when I arrive at the gate. (But, then I'm a nice guy to the agents. lol)

 

[ArtTang]

Art Tang,

The past attempt to negotiate non-rev priority by APA was inflamed by the company. It keeps resurfacing on this board and most fail to understand why APA did it.
If you remember at the time, AMR had multiple divisions of employees, many who had nothing to do with the airline except using it as a cash cow.(French trains and car reservations ring a bell) These groups all had pass travel and priority over the AA airline employees if they checked in 1 minute earlier.
APA's intent was to get the airline employees priority, not just the pilots. Big problem was the APA couldn't negotiate for other union and non-union groups, so only pilot priority was listed. The goal was to follow in the steps of obtaining Direct Deposit. The pilots got that in negotiations and instead of two payroll systems, gave it to everybody. You're all welcome
The morning after APA informed the company, they handed APA's proposal out to every FA, which spun them up immediately. The legend continues on this board. APA was also at fault for not communicating with the other unions and it's own memebers about it. Proof of this is your pilot friends.
AAStew,

Ignorant and stupid is no way to go through life, even as a FA. Those that got turned down by the FFDO process included a USAF Fighter Squadron commander who flew missions over NYC in a missile armed fighter. TSA decided he wasn't trustworthy.
I didn't know that the psychological testing application process was public knowledge? Maybe you have forgotten about the definition of SSI in your pubs.

You are a complete fool.

MACH85er:
I think you are correct in stating the APA should have done a better job of communicating this to everyone. It created lots of ill will among the work groups toward the pilots, and that could have been avoided. However, it still does not alter the fact that, in this latest proposal to the company, the pilots are trying to secure boarding priority over flight attendants when they deadhead as a discrete crew. Again, I think honoring seniority would be the only fair way to resolve this debate.

Also, regarding the following comment you make to AAStew:

"Ignorant and stupid is no way to go through life, even as a FA."

I have to say, this sort of rhetoric kind of places you both on an even playing field as far as ad hominem attacks go. The majority of pilots are not mentally feeble (contrary to what AAStew may suggest), and the majority of flight attendants are not air heads (as you seem to suggest). I know plenty of flight attendants who are also teachers, lawyers, multilingual, nurses, etc. I have two master's, teach French and Portuguese at the university level, and am ABD in my doctoral program, so please don't use such a wide brush when insinuating flight attendants are ignorant and stupid. If your beef is with AAStew, which it appears to be, please be considerate enough to leave the rest of the flight attendants out of it.

Peace,
Art Tang
IMA

Art,
Are you versed in the (cough, rumored) recent firing(s) of 2 MIA based F/A's and the events and circumstances that led to the firing(s)? It all began with a deadhead from what I understand.

Which leads me again to question why the APFA chose to run the cabin jumpseat up the flagpole, and not the deadhead priority?

Hello AAviator,

No, I am not up to date with this 'news' item. I don't fly very often, so I am out of the loop. Sorry...

Art Tang
IMA

 

[Mach85ER]

Art,
Sorry about the inference. Second part of my post was written quickly. After reviewing it, I kind of had a J Kerry moment Thanks for your reasoned posts.

I am aware of, and have the utmost respect for the level of education achieved by many FA's.

Regarding the boarding priority, I disagree that seniority is the way to go. My seniority means asolutely nothing with any other group. With the pilots, it's not uncommon to have a FO/FB who is senior to the Captain. It opens another can of worms with mergers. As an FO, I voluntarily go behind the Captain, even if he's junior to me on the list (TWA)

 

[ArtTang]

Art,
Sorry about the inference. Second part of my post was written quickly. After reviewing it, I kind of had a J Kerry moment Thanks for your reasoned posts.

I am aware of, and have the utmost respect for the level of education achieved by many FA's.

Regarding the boarding priority, I disagree that seniority is the way to go. My seniority means asolutely nothing with any other group. With the pilots, it's not uncommon to have a FO/FB who is senior to the Captain. It opens another can of worms with mergers. As an FO, I voluntarily go behind the Captain, even if he's junior to me on the list (TWA)

MACH85er:

...no worries

Take care and have a great Thanksgiving.

Art Tang
IMA

 

[AAStew]

Ignorant and stupid is no way to go through life, .
I didn't know that the psychological testing application process was public knowledge? Maybe you have forgotten about the definition of SSI in your pubs.

You are a complete fool.

Ignorant and stupid, hmmm...seems like you are describing yourself. Do a google search on pilots failing this and you will get quite a few hits. But you want to know the funny part? The only reason I know about you guys failing , is because your fellow pilots joke about it behind your backs. They make sure to let us flight attendants know who has failed and who hasn't. It seems to me there is quite a split among you boys and the the merit of this program. Or did I hit a sore spot because you failed?
BTW if you don't know how to google, I will send you instructions, big guy. See you in the sky sweetie.