Analyst Jamie Baker says AA won't cut labor costs as much as Horton would like

[Duke787]

It still is a fear tactic. Just because they pulled the trigger that doesn't change. Are you saying that we should have partially given up Retiree Medical, all of our Prefunding for those under 50 , and agreed to no longer offer the DB for new hires? What agreement would we have if the company went after what was left in BK?

All you guys are crying about this when none of even knows for sure what hey are going to ask.

By the way I never worked for EAL.

Ya AA is using BK just to scare the unions..........what are you going to tell your members if AA guts the contract, that AA doesn't mean it. it's all just a fear tactic.


I'm beginning that you are not the real Bob Owens but just using his name as a pen name.........no local president could be this daft....

 

[Duke787]

2003 was the final straw.
In 1983 we lost receive and dispatch, it took BK nearly twenty years later for the UAL guys to give tht up.
In 1990 we went with Flex Benefits
In 1990 we started Prefunding our retiree medical
In 1995 we introduced SRP's, a permanent underclass of mechanics who hired in at rates lower than mechanics did ten years earlier.
In 2003 we agreed to massive concessions outside of BK that carriers in BK had to go back for more concessions.

AA likes to only talk about topped out wages but what they leave out is that unlike most of our competitors, the majority of our mechanics don't make that wage, only line mechanics on nights do, so around 2500 out of 11500 in the contract. . AA has some of the lowest starting wages, longest progressions and biggest disparity in the steps, most of the increase is at the last step of a very long progression, these things save AA tons of money but are pretty much hidden when comparisons are made. The Info isn't that readily available but when all of these things are factored in the average wage at AA must be considerably lower than competitors and all these things, long progressions, lopsided steps, paying for things that our peers don't pay for, low wage mechanics, loss of receive an dispatch etc were put in place before competitors filed bk, it took bk for them to try and catch up to the concessions we started putting in place in 1983, so what did we do in 2003? We gave up Vacation, Holidays, sick time etc.

ok that's all in the past, but I'm a papist and part of our faith involves the act of contrition, where you recognize your faults and move on, denying the damage we did to the profession only can lead us to continue to follow the same path.

Now AA is going to do all things they have always wanted to do to our contracts, but of course it's just a fear tactic.

 

[787nightmare]

Now AA is going to do all things they have always wanted to do to our contracts, but of course it's just a fear tactic.

From where I'm sitting, appears to me they've always pretty much had there way with the twu, ace.

 

[1AA]

By the way I never worked for EAL.

Must be that other Bob :wacko:

 

[Hopeful]

Now AA is going to do all things they have always wanted to do to our contracts, but of course it's just a fear tactic.

Once the pesnions are history, I wonder how that will affect FUTURE negotiations where the DB plans were used as a bargaining tool against higher wages.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Once the pesnions are history, I wonder how that will affect FUTURE negotiations where the DB plans were used as a bargaining tool against higher wages.

Agreed - the pension has been used as a bargaining chip for far too long. Since a 401k-type investment will do the same thing (given enough time and with proper management), I fail to understand the negative feelings re: "losing" the pension, other than its use to instill fear in those who depend of the twu for information.

We're where we are now because we listened to people worrying about "losing" the DB plan. Given enough time, those worries become real in that there's not enough time to make up the difference, hence the fear factor (as Jim below has said - this is an edit after the fact). There are quite a few in that boat right now.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Agreed - the pension has been used as a bargaining chip for far too long. Since a 401k-type investment will do the same (with proper management), I fail to understand the negative feelings re: "losing" the pension, other than its use to instill fear in those who depend of the twu for information.

well said.... the pain in moving to a 401K is the transition... few people given a choice would choose to hold onto a pension in order to remain under someone else's control vs. receiving your retirement benefits with each paycheck and knowing that they can't hold anything over you and you can choose to walk away w/ little risk if the company fails to deliver what you thought it was when you were hired.
.
It is impossible to know what a company will be in 30 years of work- let alone for a couple more decades after you retire. There are enough investment resources available to allow a person to make their own choices - or hire a professional to manage your retirement benefits w/o worrying if your retirement will fail if the company does.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Since a 401k-type investment will do the same (with proper management), I fail to understand the negative feelings re: "losing" the pension, other than its use to instill fear in those who depend of the twu for information.

The problem rests on the shoulders of the "tweeners" - those far enough from retirement that a termination of the DB plan would cost them a sizable amount of retirement income yet close enough to retirement that there isn't time to make the difference starting from scratch in a DC plan.

Jim

 

[Duke787]

Once the pesnions are history, I wonder how that will affect FUTURE negotiations where the DB plans were used as a bargaining tool against higher wages.

Not only that 3-4 years from now we should be negotiating a new contract during a good economy, plus without a pension, and a gutted contract AA will have no excuse's.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Not only that 3-4 years from now we should be negotiating a new contract during a good economy, plus without a pension, and a gutted contract AA will have no excuse's.

Where are you getting your "rosy" information?

 

[Frank Szabo]

well said.... the pain in moving to a 401K is the transition... few people given a choice would choose to hold onto a pension in order to remain under someone else's control vs. receiving your retirement benefits with each paycheck and knowing that they can't hold anything over you and you can choose to walk away w/ little risk if the company fails to deliver what you thought it was when you were hired.
.
It is impossible to know what a company will be in 30 years of work- let alone for a couple more decades after you retire. There are enough investment resources available to allow a person to make their own choices - or hire a professional to manage your retirement benefits w/o worrying if your retirement will fail if the company does.

Some time before I became employed at AA, I worked for a company that decided to replace its DB plan with a DC plan. I was late 20s in age. When they made the distribution to the new 401ks, even though I hadn't been there a full year, I had about $15k stuck in the newly created 401. Another fellow who hired in after me was age 56 and his "pile" amount to a $55k addition.

I haven't a clue what was done with those already receiving benefits from the pension - whether they continued to receive their monthly checks or if they were bought out, also.

This is one way AMR could get out of the pension business besides using the PBGC or simply freezing it.

 

[Frank Szabo]

You should support the TWU, because the TWU is the only thing looking out for your interests. I can not say anything positive about AMR, except you should leave AA because you sound bitter, and should not have that kind of hate all the time, you are just going to give yourself a heart attack.

The twu is looking for a way to keep employment high (with the associated dues intake) and medicocre to low wages for us. Hopefully, Horton has the balls to tell them where to get off, unlike his predecessor.

One of the first lines in any contract book I've ever seen states, "The company retains the right to manage the business".

So - when's that going to start? When will the company stop deferring to a group that only has their own finances in mind and not the interests of its membership?

 

[Buck]

The twu is looking for a way to keep employment high (with the associated dues intake) and medicocre to low wages for us. Hopefully, Horton has the balls to tell them where to get off, unlike his predecessor.

One of the first lines in any contract book I've ever seen states, "The company retains the right to manage the business".

So - when's that going to start? When will the company stop deferring to a group that only has their own finances in mind and not the interests of its membership?

At what point does the TWU find themselves in the position to decide whether to allow more members and a lower wage or less members and a higher wage?

Good find on the contract book. I have a favorite one myself. Article 28 para b.

(B) The Union recognizes that the Company will have sole jurisdiction of the management and operation of its business, the direction of its working force, the right to maintain discipline and efficiency in its hangars, stations, shops, or other places of employment, and the right of the Company to hire, discipline, and discharge employees for just cause, subject to the provisions of this Agreement. It is agreed that the rights enumerated in this Article will not be deemed to exclude other preexisting rights of management not enumerated which do not conflict with other provisions of this Agreement.

 

[eolesen]

By the way I never worked for EAL.

My apologies. I thought you said that you had worked for Lorenzo.

 

[paul1]

Delta pays their workers more than AA and word is out that another increase is on the way.

Sure, once we get our retro those guys will leave. Now they are also sticking around to make sure that the pension and retiree medical isn't voted away as well.

Congrats Bob you are right, we are getting full retro, Thank You Very much. No raise equals zero for retro. h34r: h34r: h34r: