Analysts again say that AA should shrink to help the industry (the competition)

[Kev3188]

Let me PM topdawg and he will tell the board different as will Kevin.

Don't need to; his posts say it all...

 

[WeAAsles]

Labor won't get anywhere as long as it obeys the rules it never agreed to.

Operating within the existing structure and expecting success is pointless.

Precisely on point Kev.

And here's an example of a guy who got it right when he said "If you don't strengthen the bottom, the top will fall"

 
A longtime Delta Air Lines employee and Twin Cities labor activist, Kip Hedges, was fired this week from his job as a baggage handler after championing a $15 minimum wage for airline workers.
According to multiple postings on social media, Hedges gave an on-camera interview to Workday Minnesota, where he said, "A lot of the Delta workers make under $15 an hour. As a matter of fact, I would say probably close to half make under $15 an hour."

http://www.twincities.com/business/ci_27069653/longtime-delta-employee-labor-activist-kip-hedges-fired

 

[WeAAsles]

Getting back to Bob in NYC for a minute. I can understand where he's coming from though. Not sure what he makes as a Union rep on top of his BASE pay but his members are not keeping up with the average Unionized blue collar city worker and that's a fact.
 

Taxpayers in the Big Apple are forced to pay $144,000 a year for salary, health and pension benefits for garbage workers, who are unskilled but unionized laborers.

 

Research by the Manhattan Institute, a think tank in New York, shows that when Mayor Michael Bloomberg took office after 9/11 the city increased spending on garbage workers’ salaries by three and a half times the rate of inflation every year, growing the sanitation department budget from $1.3 billion a year to $2.2 billion.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2011/01/253645/#e6evpjUfdDS0KIrx.99

 

 

[FWAAA]

I could have sworn this thread's topic was about Wall St analysts whining that AA should reduce capacity for the benefit of DL, WN and UA.

 

[WeAAsles]

I could have sworn this thread's topic was about Wall St analysts whining that AA should reduce capacity for the benefit of DL, WN and UA.

Labor costs are a huge part of this conversation because the cost of labor factors in to the shareholder profits or losses that those analysts want to capitalize on and you know it.

You just don't like labor talking to each other about it because it wouldn't help your cause.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I think Kev and weasles and I are on the same page now.

I am not opposed to labor trying to improve its lot... but it won't happen by accepting everything that exists... but like Rosa Parks, you have to push the system that exists to its limits.

The civil rights movement wasn't what ISIS is today which is to overthrow governments and kill people.

that is well beyond labor can accomplish.

but governments in Europe are having to rethink their austerity programs because their people won't accept any more cuts.

Will they succeed long-term? I personally doubt it because someone has to pay the bill and Germany is tired of responsibly managing its economy while other countries don't and then expect Germany to foot the bill.

the US isn't in the same situation.

change can happen.

but my challenge to you is that it really affect the true social change that many of you say you want - and which I support - but which often still leave huge divides in society - specifically between regional carrier and contractor employees on one side and mainline employees on the other.

We need people who will change many of the ways the western capitalist economies work. I would be tickled pink to say that I was part of this board when key people rose up to make a difference.

 

[WeAAsles]

I think Kev and weasles and I are on the same page now.

And there's also a comet racing towards the Earth that's going to wipe out all life as we know it. Just one page WT. We still read two very different books.

 

[FWAAA]

I could have sworn this thread's topic was about Wall St analysts whining that AA should reduce capacity for the benefit of DL, WN and UA.

 

[700UW]

I could have sworn this thread's topic was about Wall St analysts whining that AA should reduce capacity for the benefit of DL, WN and UA.

Are you a moderator now?
 
You do realize capacity cuts does effect labor?

 

[topDawg]

spare the race card, BOB.

it doesn't even come close to fitting and it hasn't even been suggested. You are the one that is seeing racism as a part of the issue; I am speaking SOLELY about economics and market forces.

I am not at all saying that you or anyone else should just throw up your hands in desperation and leave because you can't get what you want.

In fact, I have repeatedly said that you and others have to band together and really withhold your services to effect change.

It is you that are content to maintain the status quo and live within an unjust system by not acting OUTSIDE OF THE SYSTEM.

by telling us how unfair the system is because it is stacked against labor BUT NOT TELLING US WHAT YOU ARE DOING ABOUT IT, mgmt. has won.

if you really believe that labor has a leg to stand on, then take a stand.

but you also run the risk that the free market system will indeed work - just like what happened with Reagan and the ATC controllers.

you might win - but the system might hit a long-term reset that will leave labor far worse off than you are before.

but if you act, then you have pressed the free market system to act as it is intended and without government of unfair advantage on either side.

and everything you do in life has consequences and implications, both positive and negative.

While i generally don't agree with anything Bob says, He IS in a union and he IS(or was) an officer. 
 
If that isn't trying to make change I am not sure what is. 
 

I think Kev and weasles and I are on the same page now.

I am not opposed to labor trying to improve its lot... but it won't happen by accepting everything that exists... but like Rosa Parks, you have to push the system that exists to its limits.

The civil rights movement wasn't what ISIS is today which is to overthrow governments and kill people.

that is well beyond labor can accomplish.

but governments in Europe are having to rethink their austerity programs because their people won't accept any more cuts.

Will they succeed long-term? I personally doubt it because someone has to pay the bill and Germany is tired of responsibly managing its economy while other countries don't and then expect Germany to foot the bill.

the US isn't in the same situation.

change can happen.

but my challenge to you is that it really affect the true social change that many of you say you want - and which I support - but which often still leave huge divides in society - specifically between regional carrier and contractor employees on one side and mainline employees on the other.

We need people who will change many of the ways the western capitalist economies work. I would be tickled pink to say that I was part of this board when key people rose up to make a difference.

as long as you have the "your free to leave" attitude I can safely say that will never happen.
 
IMO you talk about all this change such, but i just have a feeling that if labor does something to better its self and it is negative to mother Delta you will flip your **** again. Just like you did when the FA's filed for a union vote.  

 

[WorldTraveler]

dawg,
it is not a DL or non-DL thing.

it is solely about the performance of the labor movement within the airline industry relative to other airlines such as DL that are less unionized.

I have repeatedly said that I would be happy to see unions succeed at gaining more for their employees.

I also believe that change will have to come from OUTSIDE Of the union structure because there are laws that would punish unions if they violate rulings to not strike.

The government can't tell a bunch of employees who aren't working within the union structure to not walk off the job.

if they are certain enough their peers will join them and they can effect change, they can succeed.

I totally get the imbalance of the RLA and the even greater impact that consolidation is having on labor.

the only way to fix that reality is to work outside of the union structure which companies know how to control.

 

[topDawg]

dawg,
it is not a DL or non-DL thing.

it is solely about the performance of the labor movement within the airline industry relative to other airlines such as DL that are less unionized.

I have repeatedly said that I would be happy to see unions succeed at gaining more for their employees.

I also believe that change will have to come from OUTSIDE Of the union structure because there are laws that would punish unions if they violate rulings to not strike.

The government can't tell a bunch of employees who aren't working within the union structure to not walk off the job.

if they are certain enough their peers will join them and they can effect change, they can succeed.

I totally get the imbalance of the RLA and the even greater impact that consolidation is having on labor.

the only way to fix that reality is to work outside of the union structure which companies know how to control.

no but it is. 
We have all seen you completely blow up if labor does something to your beloved Delta. We have seen you say it is perfectly okay and you support Delta not fallowing its contract with the pilots. 
 
however, if they pilots had a sick out because of the JV, we all know you would completely lose your ****. 
 
that isn't being pro-labor. Thats being eh labor is alright as long as they don't F&%k with Delta. 

 

[Kev3188]

Everything's okay until labor gets uppity.

When that happens, look out; all of this "man of the people" nonsense will be gone in a flash...

 

[topDawg]

Everything's okay until labor gets uppity.

When that happens, look out; all of this "man of the people" nonsense will be gone in a flash...

if you guys voted in a union he would be quick to point out how Delta should pull your PS, outsource etc. etc. just like he did with the FAs. 
nothing says "I care about labor" more than pay cuts and outsourcing because you joined a union. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

IOW, you can't accept that the situation you want to believe works hasn't in real life; ie the market still determines the success or failure of whatever labor does.

While you sit here and lambast me, labor continues to be a non-event at US airlines in terms of forcing mgmt. to do more than mgmt. is willing to do.

I would be happy to see labor win but as Kev is famous for saying and weAAsles aptly noted, labor itself is well trained in the use of the circular firing squad and in the process of defeating its own interests.

If you could focus your energy on effecting change instead of berating me, the situation with labor and the industry might change.

Labor is and will be measured by what it accomplishes. If labor actually did get uppity enough to fix problems, they might earn my commendations.

for now, quit wearing my condemnation of labor's track record as if it were about your mother or grandmother.