Analyst Jamie Baker says AA won't cut labor costs as much as Horton would like

[High Speed Steel]

Why should I support the TWU, or AMR: we were told that the concessions of 2003 secured our pensions and the jobs of our fellow TWU brothers, that was not true.

Since 1983 the TWU has led the entire M&R Airline Industrial Occupational group into a downward spiral; we have agreed to terms of employment that caused others to go to greater lengths just to match our concessions.

During all of that time; the TWU International has increased the numbers and compensation of those that own all of our contracts without concessions in their rates of pay, hours of work and working conditions.

They lead, I bleed.

Don't Be A Tool: "We'll Get'em Next Time" is the spoof for a Fool.

Or look at it this way. For 8 years you have hung onto your AA defined pension and it has accrued and grown for the past 8 years. Also AA is the only airline who has kept the preponderance of it's heavy overhaul in house for the past 8 years securing jobs.

The TWU made this happen for you. Show me another union that has done the same for their members from within the airline industry over the past 8 years....

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Or look at it this way. For 8 years you have hung onto your AA defined pension and it has accrued and grown for the past 8 years. Also AA is the only airline who has kept the preponderance of it's heavy overhaul in house for the past 8 years securing jobs.

The TWU made this happen for you. Show me another union that has done the same for their members from within the airline industry over the past 8 years....

Sort of like telling Mrs Lincoln that , "Other than that unfortunate incident, it was, indeed , a pretty good play."

 

[eolesen]

Or look at it this way. For 8 years you have hung onto your AA defined pension and it has accrued and grown for the past 8 years. Also AA is the only airline who has kept the preponderance of it's heavy overhaul in house for the past 8 years securing jobs.

The TWU made this happen for you. Show me another union that has done the same for their members from within the airline industry over the past 8 years....

As for the pension, APA, APFA managed to hold onto theirs as well, so for starters, that's a red herring.

Fact is, AA didn't seriously propose going after the pensions in 2003.

And as for overhaul... that's the equal of the pilot scope clause to me. And AA didn't seriously pursue changing that, either.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Or look at it this way. For 8 years you have hung onto your AA defined pension and it has accrued and grown for the past 8 years. Also AA is the only airline who has kept the preponderance of it's heavy overhaul in house for the past 8 years securing jobs.

The TWU made this happen for you. Show me another union that has done the same for their members from within the airline industry over the past 8 years....

we paid for that in concessions, the TWU did not save anything. The employees went through a bankruptcy restructuring in 2003 before other airlines went in and we lowered the bar for everyone else. What other unions have done that?
just saying it like it is

 

[Kellerguy]

we paid for that in concessions, the TWU did not save anything. The employees went through a bankruptcy restructuring in 2003 before other airlines went in and we lowered the bar for everyone else. What other unions have done that?
just saying it like it is

Those with lots of seniority who don;t plan to retire early probably come close or even make out ahead if they live long enough, considering the difference in monthly payments will be found every month in retirement. Those with out as much seniority (guessing somewhere around 25-30 years?) will probably have lost no matter what. Not sure where the break even point will be--depends on your final average rate calculation. So all in all, probably most lost, even the seniors that dont outlive the break even point.

 

[Jacobin777]

Well you can play whatever games you like with your numbers but let me tell you something, we aint coming out of this with anything less than what UAL settles for, we would rather shut the place down first. We know that either way planes will still be flying out of these airports as fast as they can fill them no matter what color the tail is and who ever ends up with the slots, gates and planes, they will need mechanics.

You aren't the owner of the company which employees tens of thousands people..the company isn't going to shut down on your whim...regardless of what you think.

Bob Owens

"Well you can play whatever games you like with your numbers but let me tell you something, we aint coming out of this with anything less than what UAL settles for, we would rather shut the place down first. We know that either way planes will still be flying out of these airports as fast as they can fill them no matter what color the tail is and who ever ends up with the slots, gates and planes, they will need mechanics."


Now seriously do you think that a judge is going to let you shut the place down.
Come on already; please stop misleading the membership.
I expect that APFA, APA and TWU will not be able to get crap
for any of us. I wish the unions would be more honest with us
and not give us a sense of false expectations.
AA will get almost everything AA wants or a judge will shove
it down our throats. That is the reality my friend.
Just asked anyone that went thru this process.

+1

Bingo. Bob seems to be following Charlie Bryan's playbook, perhaps a little too closely.

I came to the conclusion that the biggest problem you guys have faced with the collective bargaining process is who is doing the bargaining. Time after time, you've been outwitted for short term gain and long term pain.

That's the general feeling I've been getting from reading posts here.

 

[Duke787]

You aren't the owner of the company which employees tens of thousands people..the company isn't going to shut down on your whim...regardless of what you think.



+1




That's the general feeling I've been getting from reading posts here.

I can assure you that ORD isn't going to follow some loud mouth from NY in shutting down AA.

Doesn't Owens have a responsablity to tell his membership the truth about BK, rather then what he "thinks" should happen. Owens is not doing anybody any favors by telling them what they want to hear, playing to their emotions.

 

[Duke787]

Why should I support the TWU, or AMR: we were told that the concessions of 2003 secured our pensions and the jobs of our fellow TWU brothers, that was not true.

Since 1983 the TWU has led the entire M&R Airline Industrial Occupational group into a downward spiral; we have agreed to terms of employment that caused others to go to greater lengths just to match our concessions.

During all of that time; the TWU International has increased the numbers and compensation of those that own all of our contracts without concessions in their rates of pay, hours of work and working conditions.

They lead, I bleed.

Don't Be A Tool: "We'll Get'em Next Time" is the spoof for a Fool.

You should support the TWU, because the TWU is the only thing looking out for your interests. I can not say anything positive about AMR, except you should leave AA because you sound bitter, and should not have that kind of hate all the time, you are just going to give yourself a heart attack.

 

[Overspeed]

Are you saying that if we had agreed to that the company would not have filed?

Nobody is Bob. The issue now is people listened to you that BK was a fear tactic and it wasn't. So we listened to you and they did. Your credibility is waning.

 

[Overspeed]

That's exactly my point, Chris. AA inherited EA's labor problems by hiring the workers. I see it in Bob ( former EA) and in the guys behind the APAPDP group in MIA.

Bob is ex-EA? How do you know that? That makes sense though, Bob is Bryan wannabe. Looks like he followed the script well. Talk tough and get it broke off in your tail in BK.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

[Buck]

Or look at it this way. For 8 years you have hung onto your AA defined pension and it has accrued and grown for the past 8 years. Also AA is the only airline who has kept the preponderance of it's heavy overhaul in house for the past 8 years securing jobs.

The TWU made this happen for you. Show me another union that has done the same for their members from within the airline industry over the past 8 years....

And since the TWU is not the membership, then the TWU International. "Got That For You Brother"


Another item comes to mind. Since the majority of the membership loves to wear t-shirts with slogans, Bob Owens was just doing what a t-shirt from the TWU said, "Will Strike If Provoked" But "Hiss, Hiss , the company is the Mongoose.

Blame Bob Owens all you want, because you and I hold no blame.

 

[High Speed Steel]

we paid for that in concessions, the TWU did not save anything. The employees went through a bankruptcy restructuring in 2003 before other airlines went in and we lowered the bar for everyone else. What other unions have done that?
just saying it like it is

Show me what we the TWU did in 2003 that effected the loss, or "lowered the bar" as you say. What cause did we inflict on the other airlines to strip their employees of their traditional pension plans, show me what we the TWU did in 2003 to cause the complete outsourcing of heavy overhaul that quaked through the industry. To date Chuck, our pensions continue to accrue and have accrued for the past 8 years as we have enjoyed gains as others in the industry have lost....

 

[Bob Owens]

Nobody is Bob. The issue now is people listened to you that BK was a fear tactic and it wasn't. So we listened to you and they did. Your credibility is waning.

It still is a fear tactic. Just because they pulled the trigger that doesn't change. Are you saying that we should have partially given up Retiree Medical, all of our Prefunding for those under 50 , and agreed to no longer offer the DB for new hires? What agreement would we have if the company went after what was left in BK?

All you guys are crying about this when none of even knows for sure what hey are going to ask.

By the way I never worked for EAL.

 

[Buck]

Show me what we the TWU did in 2003 that effected the loss, or "lowered the bar" as you say. What cause did we inflict on the other airlines to strip their employees of their traditional pension plans, show me what we the TWU did in 2003 to cause the complete outsourcing of heavy overhaul that quaked through the industry. To date Chuck, our pensions continue to accrue and have accrued for the past 8 years as we have enjoyed gains as others in the industry have lost....

2003. The TWU has been lowering the bar since the 1983 contract, from B-Scale through OSM. Even as risky as the stock market is, at some point the market does rebound. When is the TWU going to do the same?

 

[Bob Owens]

Show me what we the TWU did in 2003 that effected the loss, or "lowered the bar" as you say. What cause did we inflict on the other airlines to strip their employees of their traditional pension plans, show me what we the TWU did in 2003 to cause the complete outsourcing of heavy overhaul that quaked through the industry. To date Chuck, our pensions continue to accrue and have accrued for the past 8 years as we have enjoyed gains as others in the industry have lost....

2003 was the final straw.
In 1983 we lost receive and dispatch, it took BK nearly twenty years later for the UAL guys to give tht up.
In 1990 we went with Flex Benefits
In 1990 we started Prefunding our retiree medical
In 1995 we introduced SRP's, a permanent underclass of mechanics who hired in at rates lower than mechanics did ten years earlier.
In 2003 we agreed to massive concessions outside of BK that carriers in BK had to go back for more concessions.

AA likes to only talk about topped out wages but what they leave out is that unlike most of our competitors, the majority of our mechanics don't make that wage, only line mechanics on nights do, so around 2500 out of 11500 in the contract. . AA has some of the lowest starting wages, longest progressions and biggest disparity in the steps, most of the increase is at the last step of a very long progression, these things save AA tons of money but are pretty much hidden when comparisons are made. The Info isn't that readily available but when all of these things are factored in the average wage at AA must be considerably lower than competitors and all these things, long progressions, lopsided steps, paying for things that our peers don't pay for, low wage mechanics, loss of receive an dispatch etc were put in place before competitors filed bk, it took bk for them to try and catch up to the concessions we started putting in place in 1983, so what did we do in 2003? We gave up Vacation, Holidays, sick time etc.

ok that's all in the past, but I'm a papist and part of our faith involves the act of contrition, where you recognize your faults and move on, denying the damage we did to the profession only can lead us to continue to follow the same path.