An Open Letter from Capt. Prater to all AAA and AWA Pilots

[CruiseO]

Go ask the former Empire Pilots what ALPA did to them during the Piedmont Merger, there was not DOH hire used, they were penalized the minute they came off the F28, they lost their seniority.

So dont tell me ALPA used DOH for 60 years.

Mainline PI screwed the Empire Pilots and AAA did not rectify the situation when PI and US merged.

Empire wasn't ALPA.

C

 

[AWA320]

Because the two bottom guys are like night and day....or maybe like father and son. Two completely different career lengths, length and breadth of experience, years of paying union dues, number of stormy nights, etc., etc., etc.

And none of that makes a bit if difference if the two were on the bottom of their respective lists!! Just because a person had 19yrs doesn't mean he has that much seniority! He obviously has 19yr of longetivity but his seniority is really low. What happens if every one else had 20 years what kind of seniority did the 19yr guy have now??

Why on earth should a west guy who was moving up rapidly on his list now be pushed down as a result of a merger??? This is why you take the two regardless of longetivity and put them together, why because they both have the same seniority. Longetivity and seniority two entirely different things!!!

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

CaptBud,

All of the ranting and chest pounding on this board is one thing, but going out in public to commit assault and battery is quite another – in jail, out of job, and sued back to the stone age. Even the east guys aren’t that stupid. :huh:

Gotta give Prater credit for having cahones. Meeting with the pilots to sell them some promises of a better contract without addressing the merged list takes a giant set. For his sake, I hope he brings body guards.

 

[prechilill]

The PAI pilots also fought vehemently against DOH in the AAA/PAI merger. They wanted slotting.

What's ironic is that what the AWA pilots were awarded by Nicolau is almost exactly what the PAI pilots wanted from Kagel. That would have put 6-year PAI pilots ahead of 14-year AAA pilots.

Of course, many of the former PAI pilots who today think Nicolau is such an outrage thought the very same formula was perfectly fair in 1988.

Interesting comment. I figured there were a few Piedmont hypocrites around here.

 

[AWA320]

In fact that did not happen.

Dean Collello (16 plus years) was placed below Save Dave (less than 2 years).

Arbitraitor (my spelling!) Nicolau completely disregarded the fact that Colello and others were not furloughed, but working flying aircraft at MidAtlantic,The Embraer Division of USAirways.

They were being paid by USAirways and operations were conducted under USAirway's FAA Operating Certificate. Not furloughed at all. Brought a job to the merger. In fact Doug and the money boys sold all the MidAtlantic planes (the pilots did not go with the jets) to Republic as part of the merger transaction.

Perhaps the blame rests with the USairways Merger Committee and Attorney Katz. This should have been a no brainer but now will be tied up in the courts for years to come.

Greed? I think not.

You are totally wrong!!! Dean and others at Mid atlantic were in deed furloughed from main line USAir while Odell was working for main line AWA. Dean and all the furloughs below him did not bring a job or main line seat to the merger. This arguement was made and rightly so ruled out!!

Katz is really not the problem as he told your merger committee that it's position was not going to be given any serious consideration. When the arb panel and yes your neutral as well told your MEC that DOH will not be considered not once, twice but three times what did they do?? The made a dumb decision and pushed the issue!!

This will not be tied up in the courts anywhere near what you think. Yes there will be a law suit and maybe even a counter suit at some future date. The company is fed up with the east antics and that much was crystal clear in Doug Parkers letter to all yesterday.

You leadership has been allowed to ruin whats left of your careers and you guys let them without so much as a whimper!! The final straw is being drawn as we type. The company is done with this non sense and have stated that they will move aircraft as they see fit in order to keep the airline profitable. I'm not USA320, I don't deal in dreams and wishes only truth and facts. This thing is moving on and many will be left behind. Thank your leadership for this...

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I guess you have not read my posts. I don't like the Nic award because there are no fences in PHX/LAS and the top 517 east pilots got a windfall at the expense of our top guys. The difference is I have accepted it and moved on, just as I would have done if I was stapled via DOH. With that said, I think there is an opportunity to address mutual concerns with added protections, such as fences, through the JNC process. No matter what you hear or believe, it really is the only LEGAL way for us to move forward. Any other option will be futile and very costly for both the west and east pilots, and in the end, we will look back in humility and shake our heads at the stupidity.

June
Not having a dog in this fight i have read with interest the many posts from both sides. I have never read a post from West that says they can not live with Nicolau.
I have never read a post from East that says they can live with it. That seems more than a little strange to me. I had hoped both sides would not like it very well.

I dont think the East really expected DOH in the end June so do you have an idea what the problem is on the West seeming to love it and the East hates it.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

IMO, the only way DOH makes sense is if there is a National seniority list. Even then, I don't think you find anyone to agree carrying your DOH seniority with you when moving/transferring to another carrier. It would only be used for mergers/aquisitions.

So those Jet Blue pilots who were in elementary school back when....Will be covered by this nonsense. I'm not a pilot but...

DOH only makes common sense. If the old USair hadn't retrenched back in 1992..AWA wouldn't have existed and SWA and Alaska Airlines would b much smaller than they are.

Of course there is no common sense in this world anymore...It's all about me....screw everyone else. God help us all...

 

[fatherabraham]

And none of that makes a bit if difference if the two were on the bottom of their respective lists!! Just because a person had 19yrs doesn't mean he has that much seniority! He obviously has 19yr of longetivity but his seniority is really low. What happens if every one else had 20 years what kind of seniority did the 19yr guy have now??

Why on earth should a west guy who was moving up rapidly on his list now be pushed down as a result of a merger??? This is why you take the two regardless of longetivity and put them together, why because they both have the same seniority. Longetivity and seniority two entirely different things!!!

AWA320,

Have now read some 500+ of your thoughts and I gotta ask who is kidding who? Stop dancing around the seniority issue and address the MAIN issue to the East pilot which is ATTRITION and the career expectation they had from it. Do not just discount it by some weak comment on old FO's retiring as FO. Every east pilot knew where they would fall at age 60 sans the AWA merger. The roughly bottom half of East list were hired in last half of 80"s and have been in wrong end of hiring bubble for 20 years. No fault of anyone , nor should any awa pilot make up for that situation. Not a matter of greed on the average east guy, just not willing to hand over the future attrition that one has waited 20+ years for to anyone.
How hard is that to understand????
Be honest now.......would you?

FA

 

[N924PS]

This will not be tied up in the courts anywhere near what you think. Yes there will be a law suit and maybe even a counter suit at some future date. The company is fed up with the east antics and that much was crystal clear in Doug Parkers letter to all yesterday.

You leadership has been allowed to ruin whats left of your careers and you guys let them without so much as a whimper!! The final straw is being drawn as we type. The company is done with this non sense and have stated that they will move aircraft as they see fit in order to keep the airline profitable. I'm not USA320, I don't deal in dreams and wishes only truth and facts. This thing is moving on and many will be left behind. Thank your leadership for this...

In several of your recent posts you have alluded to "final straws" a few times. What do you think you know that should have the East Pilots quaking in their Rockport's?

Inquiring minds are waiting to hear what you have to say about this latest threat to their careers. Are you now carrying mangement's water like another famous poster from the East?

Also, you never have answered why you spend 90% of your waking life posting and rebutting on this forum. Why are you so adamant in defending the West's gift from Nicolau. Are you senior to where you would be if you had remained at USAirways? Are you holding numbers at both airlines?

If it weren't for you and Junebug, life would be quite dull on this forum. You guys are getting right up there with USAviation's most ubiquitous poster.

 

[dusty]

You are totally wrong!!! Dean and others at Mid atlantic were in deed furloughed from main line USAir while Odell was working for main line AWA. Dean and all the furloughs below him did not bring a job or main line seat to the merger. This arguement was made and rightly so ruled out!!

Katz is really not the problem as he told your merger committee that it's position was not going to be given any serious consideration. When the arb panel and yes your neutral as well told your MEC that DOH will not be considered not once, twice but three times what did they do?? The made a dumb decision and pushed the issue!!

This will not be tied up in the courts anywhere near what you think. Yes there will be a law suit and maybe even a counter suit at some future date. The company is fed up with the east antics and that much was crystal clear in Doug Parkers letter to all yesterday.

You leadership has been allowed to ruin whats left of your careers and you guys let them without so much as a whimper!! The final straw is being drawn as we type. The company is done with this non sense and have stated that they will move aircraft as they see fit in order to keep the airline profitable. I'm not USA320, I don't deal in dreams and wishes only truth and facts. This thing is moving on and many will be left behind. Thank your leadership for this...

So you are saying the east pilots should expect the west aircraft to be arriving soon since the east is where the profits are being made?

 

[EastUS]

Dear Fellow Pilot,
When I last wrote to you about the actions of the Executive Council on the seniority award, I promised to keep you informed on further developments. Before I discuss the ongoing work of the Rice Committee, I need to address another serious issue the threat of union replacement by East pilots.

I want to make it clear to you how much would be lost if, as some have advocated, US Airways pilots change union representation. You may be surprised at how deep and far-reaching the effects of such a change would be for every pilot. I can attest to it personally. Thousands of Continental and FedEx pilots went down that path and returned to ALPA because we learned the hard way how little can be gained, or held, through such a change.

Accusations by East pilots that “ALPA sold me out on my pay, pension, working conditions, and, now, seniorityâ€￾............

That's a pathetic cry for help. "Please, Pulee-aze don't decertify....I need my half a million a year phoney-baloney job...so do my incestuous little inner circle of friends here at Alpo"

Prater: "I want to make it clear to you how much would be lost if, as some have advocated, US Airways pilots change union representation. "
Sounds like an attempt to play to only the most cowardly..and certainly must be evaluated within the context of: "ALPA sold me out on my pay, pension, working conditions, and, now, seniority"


Well AWA's?...I guess that the "empty threat" of decertification doesn't seem such an empty notion to Alpo after all


Prater: "Accusations by East pilots that ALPA sold me out on my pay, pension, working conditions, and, now, seniority"

Ummm..and those are "accusations" versus fact in what possible way?
This one's actually funny...but simultaneously pretty pathetic.

 

[AWA320]

AWA320,

Have now read some 500+ of your thoughts and I gotta ask who is kidding who? Stop dancing around the seniority issue and address the MAIN issue to the East pilot which is ATTRITION and the career expectation they had from it. Do not just discount it by some weak comment on old FO's retiring as FO. Every east pilot knew where they would fall at age 60 sans the AWA merger. The roughly bottom half of East list were hired in last half of 80"s and have been in wrong end of hiring bubble for 20 years. No fault of anyone , nor should any awa pilot make up for that situation. Not a matter of greed on the average east guy, just not willing to hand over the future attrition that one has waited 20+ years for to anyone.
How hard is that to understand????
Be honest now.......would you?

FA

Ok FA lets discuss that. You bring up attrition and career expectation. I have said this time and time again that AAA was NOT hiring AAA was NOT taking delivery of new a/c AAA was in fact returning larg a/c in favor of RJ's. Had there been any REAL attrition they would not have had 33% of their pilot force furloughed!!! Now AWA, we WERE hiring 20 to 30 pilots a month, we WERE taaking deliver of new air buses and we WERE growing! We had none, zero pilots on furlough and we WERE not returning a/c!! We had attrition that was given up for this merger. We had career expectations that were moving in the right direction.

The east pilots were helped with not hurt by this merger. They maintain the same realitive position with the new list that they held on their old one. What they want is someone to take the place and suffer what they suffered over the years. I feel for them but I am not willing to live that pain as a result of a merger!!!

DOH was at one time a part of the merger policy but has not been since the 1990's!! 50% plus 1 made the decision and if AAA didn't like it, if any carrier didn't like they have more than ample time to change unions. They did not!! Nor did they make any claims as to the arbitration panel being incompetent PRIOR to the arbitration.

 

[EastUS]

AWA320: "Ok FA lets discuss that."

Give it up little boy...in your own words "I doubt you would even recognize the truth!! "

PS: Whatever happened to those glorious days of yore, when you first thought perhaps a hundred..later maybe a thousand decert ballots..and now we have the top Alpoid crying for Mommy in a public fashion?

I'm now laughingly awaiting your/the AWA's next prescient vision of the future...since we all "know" that decertification's an empty bluff..or won't help..or could never be forced on the west..or whatever the latest flavor of AWA fantasy is.

 

[BottomFeeder]

Please explain your logic?? How is it not fair that the bottom guy on the east is mergered with the bottom guy in the west?? I think you are looking for some greed here myself.

Cousin Eddie,

The AWA MEC has a copyright on GREED.

But I am sure that your MEC would allow us to use it for a price.

 

[Phoenix]

If it weren't for you and Junebug, life would be quite dull on this forum. You guys are getting right up there with USAviation's most ubiquitous poster.

Uuu..biiii..qwiiii..tous..