AMR Files 1133 motion

[FWAAA]

Even if the court abrogates the deal we are still in section 6 negotiations. So in reality the only difference between having our contract abrogated and being released under normal Sect 6 is that legally the union cant call for actions that could be interpreted as self help, and if they did they would face fines and possibly jail, however the workers themselves have the right to not volunteer for OT, call in sick when they do not feel well and work to rule.

That's a long sentence. I don't believe that you're correct. If the court abrogates your agreement, and the TWU and AA are unable to reach agreement (AA has said it will keep negotiating to try to reach consensual changes), then AA will impose its terms, which are a six year agreement based on the term sheet changes, and you're no longer in Section 6 negotiations. But I may be wrong - perhaps TWU's legal counsel agrees with you and, if so, perhaps the NMB and courts will agree as well. But I doubt it.

 

[737823]

Ok so lets say they go to court, get the deals abrogated then what? Sure they can impose new terms, ok then they have to live with what the workers would do to defend their interests. Workers cant count on the government, would be nice if other workers saw the writing on the wall but either way they have to do what they have to do. Go ahead and talk about what the courts will do. Can the court sign a logbook? Can they change a tire or load a bag? Can they fly a plane or serve the passengers? Sure they can fine the Unions and imprison its leaders if they dont try and get their workers to go back to "status quo' but I'm Ok with that, and I would say so are the members. You can cite the fact that there was only a little of that back in the last round of BKs but there is a difference. People were shell shocked over 9-11, most workers had just recieved decent pay increases prior to BK and the cuts just put them back to what they were pretty much used to, and AA had already agreed to even bigger cuts outside of BK. Thats not the case now, we took paycuts in 2003 and never recovered, have not had any increase whatsoever, except what we pay to the company for Medical, in four years. The workers are already stessed to the breaking point and it wont take much to put some over the edge. Think about the pilot at JetBlue, could have been worse, think of Egypt Air. The workforce is over stressed, This would push us into unchartered territory. So the battles begin, you get used to spending a lot more time in terminals and the negotiations continue, but wait, if the leaders are in jail how do they settle the dispute? Even if the court abrogates the deal we are still in section 6 negotiations. So in reality the only difference between having our contract abrogated and being released under normal Sect 6 is that legally the union cant call for actions that could be interpreted as self help, and if they did they would face fines and possibly jail, however the workers themselves have the right to not volunteer for OT, call in sick when they do not feel well and work to rule. Hopefully they realize that the only way to play this game is to go around the rules, like the airlines have done. We may not have a path laid out to do that like the courts have given the airlines but if there is a will their is a way.

Bob, if given the opportunity would you strike even if it pushed AA in to Ch 7 leaving you and the rest of the membership jobless? However unpleasant the forthcoming changes maybe for airline workers where will you go that recognizes your seniority? Hundreds of thousands of airline jobs have been eliminated in the United States in the past decade, and the jobs that have been added are by and large non-union low paying jobs at regionals and LCCs. AMR will be able to have labor needs met. Hundreds of thousands of people applied for DL flight attendant positions, all of the regional pilots would gladly fly AA mainline aircraft even at lower pay rates, and overhaul and signigicant line maintenance can easily be outsourced. AA will be just fine.

Josh

 

[iluvaa]

Bob, if given the opportunity would you strike even if it pushed AA in to Ch 7 leaving you and the rest of the membership jobless? However unpleasant the forthcoming changes maybe for airline workers where will you go that recognizes your seniority? Hundreds of thousands of airline jobs have been eliminated in the United States in the past decade, and the jobs that have been added are by and large non-union low paying jobs at regionals and LCCs. AMR will be able to have labor needs met. Hundreds of thousands of people applied for DL flight attendant positions, all of the regional pilots would gladly fly AA mainline aircraft even at lower pay rates, and overhaul and signigicant line maintenance can easily be outsourced. AA will be just fine.

Josh

Well good then let them do that, if its that easy then I say have at it. Even here in low cost Oklahoma this is becoming an average paying job for skilled work, and in other fields I dont have to sign my life away making sure A holes dont die on planes I work on

 

[Buck]

Reading through the 1113c filing Part 5 TWU Mechanic and Related/Stores/MCT
Page 8



This Motion claims that cost outs that were provided to the TWU and are in attached Exihibits

Motion claims a need to eliminate OSM 25% cap percentages and use unlimited unlicensed workers.
This item alone has to be worth our groups 20% cost reduction.

Part 5 Motion Page 20 and 21


Yet the Exhibit 1212 does not even place a cost out on this issue.

What is the deal here?

The largest item in the motion, had no cost out?

Didn't you ask for cost out on several items in the company's proposal?

 

[iluvaa]

Reading through the 1113c filing Part 5 TWU Mechanic and Related/Stores/MCT
Page 8



This Motion claims that cost outs that were provided to the TWU and are in attached Exihibits

Motion claims a need to eliminate OSM 25% cap percentages and use unlimited unlicensed workers.
This item alone has to be worth our groups 20% cost reduction.

Part 5 Motion Page 20 and 21


Yet the Exhibit 1212 does not even place a cost out on this issue.

What is the deal here?

The largest item in the motion, had no cost out?

But this is saying pretty much half the A&Ps and shop AMT will be layed off and offered a job as an OSM, doing the same work we do now for much less money. Then when they find outside vendors to do the work we will hit the street. Blow me AA

 

[dfw gen]

AA does not really want to get out of overhaul, but they would like to get it a lot cheaper....i think they realize that Delta lost too much control so they get a hybrid if they can find a suitable vendor that can produce the work ok. if not they can use OSM's to get it done with free facilities in Tulsa.

 

[TWU informer]

AA does not really want to get out of overhaul, but they would like to get it a lot cheaper....i think they realize that Delta lost too much control so they get a hybrid if they can find a suitable vendor that can produce the work ok. if not they can use OSM's to get it done with free facilities in Tulsa.

What was your first clue that leads to that conclusion?

Once they get the unlimited OSM's and then the unlimited use of non-licensed AMT's they will then offer the early out and the TWU 20% cost reduction will then become in excess or closer to 50%

It is amazing that the cost out is incomplete, and what is there looks more like a guess than facts. Yet the company claims this will be a fair cost reduction across the board for each work group. They are kind enough to admit it is all based on December 2011 headcount numbers and not on the headcount numbers that will be in place after the early out offer is made. I can understand why some of the chages they seek are in there, I just want the TWU to be sure the numbers are correct and we are not giving more than our fair share once again.

 

[dfw gen]

Informer there are a lot of people that sit around read this board and laugh at some of your rants, in fact i know of two or three other than myself that purposely try to poke you to get you started. i must admit that it is amusing reading your posts and you do provide comic releif to a sad situation. now back to the fun and games:

are there going to be OSM welders? and have you found that weld management job yet?

that should send informer/overspeed or whatever ranter emerges today on a two day tirade where everyones a dumba** for turning down the TA blah,blah,blah...

 

[TWU informer]

Informer there are a lot of people that sit around read this board and laugh at some of your rants, in fact i know of two or three other than myself that purposely try to poke you to get you started. i must admit that it is amusing reading your posts and you do provide comic releif to a sad situation. now back to the fun and games:

are there going to be OSM welders? and have you found that weld management job yet?

that should send informer/overspeed or whatever ranter emerges today on a two day tirade where everyones a dumba** for turning down the TA blah,blah,blah...

I know that I could never hold a candle to your superior debate skills and what you bring to the discussion, I wont even try.
The facts you provide, the detailed questions you ask is really the only reason those that "laugh" at me stick around.

 

[Buster CRC]

That's a good question. What is proposed for Skilled areas such as Welding, Machining, Plating and Composites?

 

[TWU informer]

That's a good question. What is proposed for Skilled areas such as Welding, Machining, Plating and Composites?

Did you read the 1113c motion? Everything proposed is in there.

Although you are probably "sitting around laughing" at this post, you wont be after you read this...

Here is a link if you have not read it or been provided a copy yet.
TWU M&R 1113c Motion

 

[skinvalve]

ref TWU M&R 1113c Motion Proposed elimination of the .50 cent midnight shift retention premium. What can be said other than SAD so VERY VERY SAD. As a night shift worker myself, I find this, like I said SAD so VERY VERY SAD. Those that work it know and those that don't will never understand(and don't want to).

 

[TWU informer]

ref TWU M&R 1113c Motion Proposed elimination of the .50 cent midnight shift retention premium. What can be said other than SAD so VERY VERY SAD. As a night shift worker myself, I find this, like I said SAD so VERY VERY SAD. Those that work it know and those that don't will never understand(and don't want to).

Millions of Dollars in concessions and you picked out the .50 MRT?

Check out the AA proposal to the TWU on your Health Care premium increases along with the new deductable and out-of-pocket maximums.

Calculate what you have to save to make up for the frozen pension.

Calculate your premiuims for pre-medicare retirement medical.

Then read the Main Document in the 1113c motion where AA Management files a declaration that your take home pay will remain untouched......... to the extent possible.

Then you will really be SAD, and I mean VERY SAD.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Millions of Dollars in concessions and you picked out the .50 MRT?

Check out the AA proposal to the TWU on your Health Care premium increases along with the new deductable and out-of-pocket maximums.

Calculate what you have to save to make up for the frozen pension.

Calculate your premiuims for pre-medicare retirement medical.

Then read the Main Document in the 1113c motion where AA Management files a declaration that your take home pay will remain untouched......... to the extent possible.

Then you will really be SAD, and I mean VERY SAD.

The really comical part of it all is how this company uses its people as a profit source - the new insurance, as an example.

This will be set up as ASO (Administartive Services Only), probably through United Health. Bear in mind that Pacificare was the worst of the health insurance industry for many years (considered such by insurance agents) and they were bought by United. American provides an account for United to write checks from - that's all.

For many years, better options were available and some used them, in the process depriving AMR/United HC of needed actuarial data the make a good decision re: the plans offered. AMR feels it can profit from running its own insurance company but seems to have forgotten those remaining after their layoffs will be the older crew which is probably more in need of care - hardly a profit there.

Socialized medicine will hopefully be taking a hit also sometime in June when the Supreme Court issues its opinion on ObamaCare - that should further roil the profit scheme.

There's not much we can do other than complain about the company's intents, so sit back and watch this process eventually implode. Isn't that what usually happens when one hires others to do a job for them and those hired aren't familiar with the company's inner workings?

Figures don't lie, but all liars figure.

 

[Vortilon]

After reading and comparing the different work groups so called fair concessions, once again it looks as if Mechanics and related are taking an unfair portion of the pain. I have to laugh at how AA is trying to be fair with the smaller groups like dispatch and sim techs. Once again, many of these groups are already among the highest paid in the industry. Yet, there is AA aircraft maintenance once again relegated to the suck - next to the bottom (US Airways) in pay. BTW, soon to be surpassed by US Airways as their aircraft mechanics are towards the end of their negotiations.

Then I read this:

During the negotiation of its 2003 CBAs with TWU, American proposed the total dollar
amount of labor cost reductions that were necessary for the Company to avoid filing for Chapter
11, but allowed TWU to decide how to take the necessary labor cost reductions. TWU decided
to make changes in areas such as pay, holidays, vacation, sick time, and overtime, where the
Union presumably, and understandably, assumed it would later be able to negotiate a restoration
of these concessions when the airline industry returned to “normalcy.” Now, however, it has
become clear that day will never come. Weel Decl. ¶ 9.

That was a classic TWU failed tactic.