AMR Files 1133 motion

[TWU informer]

As others have said, remember than an 1113 filing does not mean that the contracts are going to get voided, just that AA wants to. And is that really a surprise? They have been saying it basically since Day 1 of the Chapter 11 filing.

There is still time to negotiate consensual deals. If I remember correctly, several bankrupt airlines last decade filed their 1113 motions and then reached agreements with their unions. I hope the same happens at AA.

At this point I actually hope this moves forward in the court system for awhile longer giving the Unions the chance to answer this absurd and error laced filing. It would be a travesty to allow such a filing go unchallenged.

 

[southwind]

And dispatchers, but of course you knew that, right?

Dispatchers = what? 10 people ?




We wouldn't. DL can just take from employees as needed, and I'm sure acolytes like you would just cheer 'em on.

So, how did belonging to a union work out for ya' at NW, Kev ? At least there's still a Delta Airlines, which I guess , is lucky for you !

I know, I know..............you no longer have a union to hold yer hand, but at least you have a job !

 

[southwind]

Actually, it's a self portrait.

I noticed you didn't say anything about Southwind's avatar, even though both are of primates. Why would that be?

Let me guess your favorite song Kev !

"You were always on my mind" !.....................Did I win ?

 

[Kev3188]

Don't overestimate yourself...

 

[WorldTraveler]

As others have said, remember than an 1113 filing does not mean that the contracts are going to get voided, just that AA wants to. And is that really a surprise? They have been saying it basically since Day 1 of the Chapter 11 filing.

There is still time to negotiate consensual deals. If I remember correctly, several bankrupt airlines last decade filed their 1113 motions and then reached agreements with their unions. I hope the same happens at AA.

meanwhile, back at the ranch....
the 1113 process is the LAST warning shot to sit down and negotiate... and by then the odds are heavily in the company's favor. As Kev has noted, the 1113 process usually allows unions to REARRANGE how the cuts will be made but the total value of the cuts is not likely to be reduced.
.
The most interesting item will be freezing vs. terminating pensions.... many non-pilot AA employees would probably not choose a freeze over a termination if it comes at the expense of other items - but AA is being pressured by its unsecured creditors to freeze since that will reduce the claims on the AA estate.
I'm not sure if AA has two proposals in hand at this point - one with a freeze and one without since freezing will require more money to continue funding the pensions. Perhaps the greatest battle will be set up between labor on the unsecured creditors who don't want to take deeper cuts to fund frozen pensions and the other unsecured creditors who don't want to take dilute their recovery for the benefit of the PBGC.
.
If there was EVER a time for AA labor to speak up regarding what benefits matter to them, THE TIME IS NOW.

 

[Bob Owens]

meanwhile, back at the ranch....
the 1113 process is the LAST warning shot to sit down and negotiate... and by then the odds are heavily in the company's favor. As Kev has noted, the 1113 process usually allows unions to REARRANGE how the cuts will be made but the total value of the cuts is not likely to be reduced.
.
The most interesting item will be freezing vs. terminating pensions.... many non-pilot AA employees would probably not choose a freeze over a termination if it comes at the expense of other items - but AA is being pressured by its unsecured creditors to freeze since that will reduce the claims on the AA estate.
I'm not sure if AA has two proposals in hand at this point - one with a freeze and one without since freezing will require more money to continue funding the pensions. Perhaps the greatest battle will be set up between labor on the unsecured creditors who don't want to take deeper cuts to fund frozen pensions and the other unsecured creditors who don't want to take dilute their recovery for the benefit of the PBGC.
.
If there was EVER a time for AA labor to speak up regarding what benefits matter to them, THE TIME IS NOW.

Ok so lets say they go to court, get the deals abrogated then what? Sure they can impose new terms, ok then they have to live with what the workers would do to defend their interests. Workers cant count on the government, would be nice if other workers saw the writing on the wall but either way they have to do what they have to do. Go ahead and talk about what the courts will do. Can the court sign a logbook? Can they change a tire or load a bag? Can they fly a plane or serve the passengers? Sure they can fine the Unions and imprison its leaders if they dont try and get their workers to go back to "status quo' but I'm Ok with that, and I would say so are the members. You can cite the fact that there was only a little of that back in the last round of BKs but there is a difference. People were shell shocked over 9-11, most workers had just recieved decent pay increases prior to BK and the cuts just put them back to what they were pretty much used to, and AA had already agreed to even bigger cuts outside of BK. Thats not the case now, we took paycuts in 2003 and never recovered, have not had any increase whatsoever, except what we pay to the company for Medical, in four years. The workers are already stessed to the breaking point and it wont take much to put some over the edge. Think about the pilot at JetBlue, could have been worse, think of Egypt Air. The workforce is over stressed, This would push us into unchartered territory. So the battles begin, you get used to spending a lot more time in terminals and the negotiations continue, but wait, if the leaders are in jail how do they settle the dispute? Even if the court abrogates the deal we are still in section 6 negotiations. So in reality the only difference between having our contract abrogated and being released under normal Sect 6 is that legally the union cant call for actions that could be interpreted as self help, and if they did they would face fines and possibly jail, however the workers themselves have the right to not volunteer for OT, call in sick when they do not feel well and work to rule. Hopefully they realize that the only way to play this game is to go around the rules, like the airlines have done. We may not have a path laid out to do that like the courts have given the airlines but if there is a will their is a way.

 

[PhatSappy]

Ok so lets say they go to court, get the deals abrogated then what? Sure they can impose new terms, ok then they have to live with what the workers would do to defend their interests. Workers cant count on the government, would be nice if other workers saw the writing on the wall but either way they have to do what they have to do. Go ahead and talk about what the courts will do. Can the court sign a logbook? Can they change a tire or load a bag? Can they fly a plane or serve the passengers? Sure they can fine the Unions and imprison its leaders if they dont try and get their workers to go back to "status quo' but I'm Ok with that, and I would say so are the members. You can cite the fact that there was only a little of that back in the last round of BKs but there is a difference. People were shell shocked over 9-11, most workers had just recieved decent pay increases prior to BK and the cuts just put them back to what they were pretty much used to, and AA had already agreed to even bigger cuts outside of BK. Thats not the case now, we took paycuts in 2003 and never recovered, have not had any increase whatsoever, except what we pay to the company for Medical, in four years. The workers are already stessed to the breaking point and it wont take much to put some over the edge. Think about the pilot at JetBlue, could have been worse, think of Egypt Air. The workforce is over stressed, This would push us into unchartered territory. So the battles begin, you get used to spending a lot more time in terminals and the negotiations continue, but wait, if the leaders are in jail how do they settle the dispute? Even if the court abrogates the deal we are still in section 6 negotiations. So in reality the only difference between having our contract abrogated and being released under normal Sect 6 is that legally the union cant call for actions that could be interpreted as self help, and if they did they would face fines and possibly jail, however the workers themselves have the right to not volunteer for OT, call in sick when they do not feel well and work to rule. Hopefully they realize that the only way to play this game is to go around the rules, like the airlines have done. We may not have a path laid out to do that like the courts have given the airlines but if there is a will their is a way.

There is a will here my friend. "cough cough" .... And when the dust settles we can have an AMFA drive and kick the sorry @$$ TWU out for good.

For now I do NOT want TWU to get us into binding agreements that extend beyond the bankruptcy period.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bob,
I am just saying that labor needs to make it clear what they want in terms of benefits. The chance of reducing the ask is minimal. The chance of prioritizing what is important to labor should be made. If labor is not interested in frozen pensions at the expense of something else, they need to speak up.
.
I completely agree this is a different environment - not the shell shock post 9/11. The AA process has dragged out for years... but that doesn't mean labor is powerless.
.
There are two huge mistakes that labor should make at this point. One is to believe that nothing can be done except what mgmt wants and the other is to be so cocky as to not believe that the company won't act on its own - with the support of the court - if labor doesn't come up with some viable suggestions as to how to restructure the labor contracts within the confines of what AA mgmt says it needs.
.
There is a middle ground that should be sought.

 

[Chuck1]

meanwhile, back at the ranch....
the 1113 process is the LAST warning shot to sit down and negotiate... and by then the odds are heavily in the company's favor. As Kev has noted, the 1113 process usually allows unions to REARRANGE how the cuts will be made but the total value of the cuts is not likely to be reduced.
.
The most interesting item will be freezing vs. terminating pensions.... many non-pilot AA employees would probably not choose a freeze over a termination if it comes at the expense of other items - but AA is being pressured by its unsecured creditors to freeze since that will reduce the claims on the AA estate.
I'm not sure if AA has two proposals in hand at this point - one with a freeze and one without since freezing will require more money to continue funding the pensions. Perhaps the greatest battle will be set up between labor on the unsecured creditors who don't want to take deeper cuts to fund frozen pensions and the other unsecured creditors who don't want to take dilute their recovery for the benefit of the PBGC.
.
If there was EVER a time for AA labor to speak up regarding what benefits matter to them, THE TIME IS NOW.

Any negotiating done will be to assist Little regarding not being displaced as "leader" by someone from the bus driver side of the TWU after the dust settles and the ATD is down in headcount - that means pay cuts for jobs again just like in 2003.

Ideally, remove the TWU. Second best (maybe) would be to let the bus drivers take over.

 

[Buck]

There is a will here my friend. "cough cough" .... And when the dust settles we can have an AMFA drive and kick the sorry @$$ TWU out for good.

For now I do NOT want TWU to get us into binding agreements that extend beyond the bankruptcy period.

How can the union leadership "negotiate" for a membership that has a faction that does not have any faith in and doesn't trust anything they have done or will do?

 

[eolesen]

Even if the court abrogates the deal we are still in section 6 negotiations. So in reality the only difference between having our contract abrogated and being released under normal Sect 6 is that legally the union cant call for actions that could be interpreted as self help, and if they did they would face fines and possibly jail, however the workers themselves have the right to not volunteer for OT, call in sick when they do not feel well and work to rule. Hopefully they realize that the only way to play this game is to go around the rules, like the airlines have done. We may not have a path laid out to do that like the courts have given the airlines but if there is a will their is a way.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if the court abrogates, you're no longer in Section 6.

And so far, like it or not but the airline hasn't gone around the rules --- if anything, they've played them right down the middle of the book, while the APA has simply tried to say the rules don't apply.

 

[Overspeed]

Ok so lets say they go to court, get the deals abrogated then what? Sure they can impose new terms, ok then they have to live with what the workers would do to defend their interests. Workers cant count on the government, would be nice if other workers saw the writing on the wall but either way they have to do what they have to do. Go ahead and talk about what the courts will do. Can the court sign a logbook? Can they change a tire or load a bag? Can they fly a plane or serve the passengers? Sure they can fine the Unions and imprison its leaders if they dont try and get their workers to go back to "status quo' but I'm Ok with that, and I would say so are the members. You can cite the fact that there was only a little of that back in the last round of BKs but there is a difference. People were shell shocked over 9-11, most workers had just recieved decent pay increases prior to BK and the cuts just put them back to what they were pretty much used to, and AA had already agreed to even bigger cuts outside of BK. Thats not the case now, we took paycuts in 2003 and never recovered, have not had any increase whatsoever, except what we pay to the company for Medical, in four years. The workers are already stessed to the breaking point and it wont take much to put some over the edge. Think about the pilot at JetBlue, could have been worse, think of Egypt Air. The workforce is over stressed, This would push us into unchartered territory. So the battles begin, you get used to spending a lot more time in terminals and the negotiations continue, but wait, if the leaders are in jail how do they settle the dispute? Even if the court abrogates the deal we are still in section 6 negotiations. So in reality the only difference between having our contract abrogated and being released under normal Sect 6 is that legally the union cant call for actions that could be interpreted as self help, and if they did they would face fines and possibly jail, however the workers themselves have the right to not volunteer for OT, call in sick when they do not feel well and work to rule. Hopefully they realize that the only way to play this game is to go around the rules, like the airlines have done. We may not have a path laid out to do that like the courts have given the airlines but if there is a will their is a way.

Your rants sound like the same as the JetBlue pilot.

As you run to the NYC Fed BK Court doors, "I'm so distraught. We are not going to BK court. We got NWA, we got UA, we got DL. What's the code!?!?!"

 

[PHAAT DON]

Your rants sound like the same as the JetBlue pilot.

As you run to the NYC Fed BK Court doors, "I'm so distraught. We are not going to BK court. We got NWA, we got UA, we got DL. What's the code!?!?!"

Hey Overspeed,tell your buddies to quit extorting dues from the working men and women....thanks

 

[WorldTraveler]

Can please give me a page reference to back up this claim? I must have missed this strategy.
Instead, I read that AA was claiming to keep the take home pay status quo and make other cuts, even though the health insurance changes alone equal a huge take home pay cut. This is just another example of claims in the motion that are twisted at best, but false in reality.

AA didn't say that - but you and I know that in many cases low fare carriers have higher base salaries than network carriers.. but benefits costs for network carriers are higher because higher percentages of network carriers are topped out, they are older which increases benefit costs esp. medical coverage, and low cost carriers have been able to grow which keeps a fresh supply of newhire employees coming through the door.
Many of the biggest benefit changes that AA is making are to break the "job for life and then a guaranteed retirement" mindset that was part of the benefit of working for a large corporation years ago.
Now most newhires recognize that they will likely be responsible for funding large parts of their own retirement and will have to make multiple job changes.
that is the unfortunate reality of the new world in which we live - but it is happening around the world - and even the notion that income security from one's government via social programs is being challenged.
Look to the ongoing strikes in Europe (it is Spain et al today) to show that taking away promised benefits is never easy, private company or goverment.

 

[TWU informer]

Reading through the 1113c filing Part 5 TWU Mechanic and Related/Stores/MCT
Page 8

The cost-out documents provided to TWU in conjunction with these
proposals are attached as AA Exs. 1212, 1213 and 1214.

This Motion claims that cost outs that were provided to the TWU and are in attached Exihibits

Motion claims a need to eliminate OSM 25% cap percentages and use unlimited unlicensed workers.
This item alone has to be worth our groups 20% cost reduction.

Part 5 Motion Page 20 and 21

3. Remove Limits On Number of OSMs
The M&R CBA also limits the number of OSMs to 25% of the number of mechanics at
its largest base maintenance operations. “n no event will the number of Shop Repairpersons
[OSMs] at either TUL or AFW exceed 25% of the total population of Title I employees at each
base.” AA Ex. 1103 at Att. 11.6. American proposes that this restriction be removed.
OSMs are paid approximately $10 per hour less than AMTs under the M&R CBA. AA
Ex. 1103 at Art. 4. The limitations on OSM work prevent American from using less expensive
OSMs for work they are fully qualified to do. This restriction does not turn on the work being
done, but rather where it is being done; OSMs do much of the same work as AMTs, but are not
allowed to do it on the aircraft dock. Elimination of these restrictions would enable American to
have the work done by fully qualified employees at a lower pay rate. Burdette Decl. ¶ 40.

4. Remove Limits on Use of AMTs Who Do Not Possess or Do Not Need
FAA Licenses.
The M&R CBA further increases costs and restricts American’s flexibility by imposing
limits on the use of AMTs who do not have A&P licenses to perform work for which A&P
licenses are not necessary. Pursuant to American’s Qualifications Administration Manual
(“QAM”), only AMTs holding A&P licenses are allowed to perform many tasks even though
FAA does not require the licenses for the tasks, and A&P license skills are not necessary for
them. AMTs with A&P licenses are paid a premium of $5.00 per hour. AA Ex.1103, Art. 4(f).
However, Articles 11(e) and (f) of the M&R CBA prohibits American from making changes to
the QAM without TWU’s consent or through an arbitration before a System Board of
Adjustment. Id., Arts. 11(e) and (f). AMTs without these licenses are capable of performing
many of these tasks, because AMTs without A&P licenses did them in past years. Indeed, some
older AMTs who do not have A&P licenses continue to do these tasks to this day under
“grandfathering” provisions elsewhere in the CBA. Burdette Decl. ¶ 41.

Yet the Exhibit 1212 does not even place a cost out on this issue.

What is the deal here?

The largest item in the motion, had no cost out?