AMR Files 1133 motion

[TWU informer]

So Sharon Levine will ask them questions (that's all a deposition is, after all). What makes you think their answers will be any different than their declarations? Like I said, she's no Perry Mason. Doubt she'll make any of the witnesses break down and admit they made it all up.

File these depositions under "got to do something to show the worthless union and its members that I'm doing something on their behalf." Will these depositions result in any different 1113 terms? Nope.

Well without knowing for sure, I suspected that the TWU has cost outs for certain items that have been collected over the 4+ years of negotiations that are conflcting in value. In other words, I believe the contrasting information is already there, the depositions are to find out why the numbers keep changing depending on what management is seeking or denying.

You are correct in that I am thinking this would go the way things went when Seham, Seham, Meltz, and Petersen were doing the legal work. And if Levine and her firm are going down the same path as that political pandering document then this effort will end without any positive results.

Alot of "IF's" but potential for a smoking gun.

And yes I have personally found some glaring flaws in the 1113c motion and claims, so surely the negotiators and lawyers can see those and more.

The other possibility is that management has not been forthcoming with some requested details on the cost outs and these depositions are going to prove that point while they are under oath. And of course the depositions will be sealed and unavailable to the members and public in the end. But proving information has not been provided as requested leaves the whole motion in question according the law and qualifying REQUIREMENTS that MUST take place prior to filing the motion.

And don't forget, I am just a simpleton Welder without an A&P license that doesn't even measure up to some of my co-workers measurement of worth and a qualified Legal Beagle I am not.

 

[Bob Owens]

The same TWU attorneys (the brilliant Sharon Levine) who filed the objection to the employment of various expensive professionals and included no citation to any legal authority but did include a quote from a Wash Post opinion ranting about Mitt Romney? Those TWU attorneys? Perry Mason she ain't.

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/687_15463.pdf


So Sharon Levine will ask them questions (that's all a deposition is, after all). What makes you think their answers will be any different than their declarations? Like I said, she's no Perry Mason. Doubt she'll make any of the witnesses break down and admit they made it all up.


Sounds as though you've already found what you believe to be "falsehoods" in the various declarations. Hope you forwarded your findings to Sharon Levine, as I doubt she'd find them on her own.

File these depositions under "got to do something to show the worthless union and its members that I'm doing something on their behalf." Will these depositions result in any different 1113 terms? Nope.

Speaking of Perry Mason, did you ever answer my questions on the appelate courts ruling in the AFA vs NWA case?

 

[FWAAA]

Speaking of Perry Mason, did you ever answer my questions on the appelate courts ruling in the AFA vs NWA case?

I recall answering it months ago when I disagreed with your characterization of the Second Circuit's ruling. I'm too lazy to search for the post but I stand by my previous post in case anyone wants to search for it.

This website's search capailities took a dive when it changed from US Aviation (I liked the search function then) to the current Airline Forums (much clunkier).

 

[tech2101]

This website's search capailities took a dive when it changed from US Aviation (I liked the search function then) to the current Airline Forums (much clunkier).

one post thread diversion...

I agree FWAAA. I don't know why they don't use google for an internal search engine...

Moderators????

Back to topic.

 

[Veritas]

one post thread diversion...

I agree FWAAA. I don't know why they don't use google for an internal search engine...

Moderators????

Back to topic.

It's quite easy to perform a search of this site with Google.

In the search box type "site:airlineforums.com" (no space in that phrase), followed by a space and the search terms.

Here is an example: Let me Google that for you

 

[Bob Owens]

AMR FILES MOTION 1133 TODAY Mar 27, 2012

From the filing: The work can be done more timely and more cost-efficiently by
FAA-approved maintenance vendors ...


Did that concept work with Timco?

Can Aeroman in S America take the work?
What other vendors will do it?

I recon those arguments are meaningless now, because the Judge will say yes or no to the whole filing. A big YES is likely.

Looks like the Co. gears will continue to turn in that courtroom, getting all that they want, with the unions being impotent. No amout of Viagra will help them. Big changes are a comming.

Did you read the part about OSM's in the hangar? The Co. is complaining about AMT- only policy in the hangar. OSM to the rescue? That is the company's answer to the mechanic shortage.
Will OSM's get the overtime in lieu of AMT's????? OSM's to lay carpet and clean? The last 450 layed off AMT's will be those OSM's in the hangar? How will it all pan out? CC to become Sgt. at Arms? Time to relive bootcamp? Sweatshops ???? Are we all caught up in a whirlpool of doom and gloom, with the end product being outsourcing and layoffs? What will the hangar look like when the crap hits the fan? How will OSM's deal with a new problem, THE FEDS and BIRD-DOGS at the same time? Buck can you help with this one?

Back in 2009 I asked Arpey if it was more expensive in totality to do OH in house than to outsource and his response was "The jury is still out on that" Well if anything, hourly maintenence costs for labor at AA have gone down compared to competitors, not up, since then. Vendors who do the work have also increased wages in order to try and retain skilled workers. We have not recieved any increases in pay while all our peers have, yet now the company is claiming that the Jury is in and the verdict is 'its More'.

The company could not send all the work out right away. There isnt enough capacity out there to take on the work done by the nearly 6000 workers in Tulsa. The system is already strained with workers putting in longer hours and the FAA pretty much abandoned its anti fatigue campaign, once again putting profits before safety, Colgan Air, AA, Jet Blue times 2, where and how will the stress manifest itself next time? Will it take another Egypt Air before they act? If the courts effectivly release the company to self help by ripping up our contracts we have to defend ourselves even though the courts will say its illegal. If the courts are going to tie our hands behind our backs while the company rapes us then we should not obey the courts, its clear they are nothing less than an accomplice.

I believe the companys plan is for OSMs to be a new permanent B-scale. Most are A&Ps and the company wants to use them as such but not pay them as A&Ps. They have been trying to line up a constant flow of OSMs through A&P schools across the country telling the schools that they will have jobs for their students when they graduate. They probably realize that they will not be able to retain them, Tulsa would be the new training ground for the industry, some would stay at AMT rates but the guys who put the seats in, open the panels and do repetative routine work would be OSMs at OSM rates.With the ability to choose who gets trained they could pick and choose which ones eventually move up to AMT rates.

While the company claims they need what they are asking for they are asking for things that nobody has, For years they claimed that they had a $600 million dollar cost disadvantage, then all of a sudden they claimed it was $800 million , now they claim they need $1.25 billion. They may be claiming they need this to be competative but if they got what they are asking for they would not be competative, they would be, in theory, the most profitable airline ever!! Problem with their plan is if they got what they want, and we accepted it, the other carriers would simply have to file BK again to compete.

Back in 2002 I had warned the AFL-CIO unions that they needed to take a stand. They didnt. They all stood by and let the courts rape their members one group at a time. When we, the weakest union of them all, granted AA 25% cuts outside of BK it set the stage for the rest to fall. Now we are set to do it again. I have to wonder was it just incompetence or did the Uniions cut a deal that was less risky for them no matter how bad it was for their members? Under the RLA if the courts abrogate airline contracts then the only difference between abrogation and being released is that the Unions can not legally resort to self help, the Railroads can not abrogate contracts in BK and workers under the NLRA can resort to self help. Our position is uniquely disadvantageous to us, how come it was never really challenged? If the contracts are abrogated then Union Security is gone as well, how can a company unilaterlly force workers under the RLA to pay dues under terms they did not ratify? Maybe thats why all these Unions tell their members that its better to accept a bad contract (that leaves Union Security in place) than fight it, after all, they dont have to live under it. The fact is if we do not fight this and accept anything close to what the company is demanding we would be better off without a union, Delta and Jet Blue are already better compensated than we are, and the fact that they dont have unions or contracts forces the company to pay wages just high enough to keep the unions out.(I imagine it will be easier if we fold again) Our Union contract would be worse than having no contract. AA would have the advantage of having a Union contract in place until 2018 with the lowest wages and worst benefits in the industry, AA would have the best of both worlds, they would not have to pay to keep a union out and they would have a union contract in place to keep it that way.

In the end it will be up to us. Do we give up any chance of restoring our careers to preserve Union security, or fight?

0%-0%-0%-0%-0%-1.5%-1.5%-1.5%-1.5%-1.5%

 

[Bob Owens]

I recall answering it months ago when I disagreed with your characterization of the Second Circuit's ruling. I'm too lazy to search for the post but I stand by my previous post in case anyone wants to search for it.

This website's search capailities took a dive when it changed from US Aviation (I liked the search function then) to the current Airline Forums (much clunkier).

I dont believe you did.
The judge ruled that in BK when a contract is abrogated that legally it "never existed" so there is no status quo to violate, do you agree with that ruling and why? Termination is one thing but for the court to claim that a contract that was in place and amended numerous times over decades never existed is really out there, besides wouldnt that really be an annulment of a contract and arent contracts usually annulled only if they were enterred into illegally or fraudulently? What is your legal opinion of the ruling? Isnt the court in effect revealing a bias against collective bagainings right to exist?

 

[iluvaa]

Bob your spot on about making tul an OSM base with minimum AMT's but I for one and many I know aint along for that ride.
some will stay but I think they will be shocked by the amount that wont

 

[tech2101]

It's quite easy to perform a search of this site with Google.

In the search box type "site:airlineforums.com" (no space in that phrase), followed by a space and the search terms.

Here is an example: Let me Google that for you

Thank you!

 

[787nightmare]

Bob, I believe that's exactly where TULE is headed.
AA, with the TWUs assistance, desires to transform this base into a downsized AAR type operation. Except they know they have all the experience, skills right here. They've just gotta convince the Tulsa mechs..."now we did everything we could, you saw the demands!"...."it is, what it is". "$25-27/hr ain't bad money here in cowtown, er, T-town!"

The bellyaching will carry on for weeks/months. But in the end, these guys will do THE SAME JOB FOR 8-10 BUCKS AN HR LESS. Heard a guy today say, "I'm willing to take a (beep) dollar an hr cut to keep my job". (it was substantial)
Could not believe my ears. My mouth just opened. Had to ask someone else, "did I hear right?" And he said "man that's still (beep) an hr!" That's what you guys are dealing with. I realize not all of you feel this way. But I'd bet you'd be surprised who'd show up at that base(and stay) for significantly lower pay. THERE YA HAVE IT BOYS.

I believe, they(AMR & TWU)know full well they can pull off the coup of the industry by achieving the above.
Only question is, how do you accomplish this with the line in same contract? Unless, you spin it off into AA MRO Inc.

 

[787nightmare]

Bob your spot on about making tul an OSM base with minimum AMT's but I for one and many I know aint along for that ride.
some will stay but I think they will be shocked by the amount that wont

I sure hope you're right partner.
But I have a feeling a lot of these guys who haven't filled out an app, well, since they had "paper applications", are in for the shock of there lives. The reality of the job market and prevailing wages (esp here in TUL)are going to hit them hard right between the eyes. :-/
Not good.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob your spot on about making tul an OSM base with minimum AMT's but I for one and many I know aint along for that ride.
some will stay but I think they will be shocked by the amount that wont

i think thats their objective. They will try to recruit kids directly from A&P schools, info I've recieved indicates they are already setting things up for that. As UAL and other carriers get what AA has had since 1995 AA will try and expand the use of OSMs to keep their competative edge. You have to remember an OSM in Tulsa has a higher standard of living than a Line Mechanic in New York.($50 000 in Tulsa is the same as $88,000 in New York http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=50000&city1=54075000&city2=53651000 ) UAL will not be able to staff their SFO base with low cost mechanics like AA could staff Tulsa. I still have not seen where outsourcing is cheaper, the Timco experiment seems to have turned out to be a dismal failure.

A lot has been made of the proposed job cuts, to me I dont think the numbers will be nearly as high as what they are saying, I dont think they really want to pay others to do what they can do in house with what they hope will be OSMs. I dont see AA actually outsourcing as much as they say in the ask, I see them wanting to use OSMs and the ability to threaten to outsource to drive productivity up and keeping wages low across the system. If AA actually cut all the jobs they said they wanted to they would lose the leverage they have used to get concessionary contracts. From the ATD and the company and overspeed every time we bring up what competitors pay we are told that "we do overhaul in house". Well if they did outsource OH and cut nearly 4000 jobs then they would be no different than any of their competitors and have no arguement to continue to keep our wages and benefits at the bottom of the industry.

 

[Buck]

Ah yes, real union men. True I got mine, brother's.

Now I see what is really on the minds of the line mechanics. Not only for they want line premiums and geographical pay, now the line will vote to have TUL an OSM base.

If and when there is a vote for separation, those in TUL will vote no. Why would those with that hold the largest voting block to help you?

Then if the line attempts to separate why would the TWU allow that to happen?

Above all else I wouldn't expected this anti-union behavior from some but not Bob Owens.

I guess if I do not like TUL, I can move to NY.

I wonder who is going to do field trip work?

 

[iluvaa]

The funny part to all this is they will get skilled mechanics cheaper then timco and still pay line mechs in nyc chump change something has to give

 

[Deleted member 14439]

The funny part to all this is they will get skilled mechanics cheaper then timco and still pay line mechs in nyc chump change something has to give

Ah yes, the ol` "o/h is holding us back" routine. Well overhaul is going away and the almighty line AMT is getting what??? Yep, 32.20 and some change. What maybe 34/hr in 2018?