Amfa Vs. Twu Debate

[twuer]

Calvin you do of course realize that at 3000+ AA has more Mechanics laid off than any other Airline and their is no Arbitration on these people as there is with the 2808 at Northwest, so let me see if I understand this at AA we have Mechanics called OSM that make sub standard wages and benefits, We have Mechanics that make more than the Overhaul Shop Mechanics but are still paid less than the top six Airlines pay Mechanics and we also have substandard benefits, all of this and 3000+ laid off to boot. :angry:

and none of those 3000+ Mechanics got their 12,500 that they should have got, and lets not forget the 3200 Mechanics that did not get to vote due to the TWU rushing the voting and not following their own constitution that says all voting will be done by paper ballot over a 30 day period.

With 8600 cards signed and almost 54% of the membership, I think the TWU Leadership had better get in front of the membership and start answering some questions or there will be a change in Unions.

Where on earth are you getting your numbers from Raptor????? They are all wrong!!!

You claim that 3000+ mechanics got laid off???? WRONG!!!! I think you should have resonded that 3000+ (if it is that high of a number) SYSTEM WIDE were affected. That is ALL classifications! The number of mechanics was not near that high. I don't have exact numbers but will get them, but this is the % I have compared to NWA (under AMFA), mechanics only. 45% at NWA were affected compared to 19% at AA. (approx) I believe the number of mechanics in TUL was about 720. I will get that exact number for you if you need to be hand fed.

And the 3200 that didn't get to vote? That's a wrong number too. As I recall AAA determined that number was closer to 200 and most of them were corrected by the voting deadline. How could you say 3200 people didn't get a PIN when the number who didn't even vote was just around 2400? The math doesn't add up. You need to check with the AMFA boys from 562. They had EVERY oppurtunity in their lawsuit in front of a Federal Court Judge to prove their claim that 3000+ (or whatever their number was) didn't get to vote but they couldn't do it. THEY FAILED!!!!!!! So, you need a better argument that the one that you have. The Pres Council voted to change the by-laws in order to accommidate the vote. So this vote was taken and agreed to unanimously by ALL the system presidents (including your's Dan). Or did you even know that???

So, if you are going to put up some information I wish that you would put up the RIGHT information. Oh, but wait, that's against the AMFA policies and procedures isn't it??!!

One more thing. . .if you are soooo wrong with these numbers then you are probably wrong about your AMFA cards too!!!! No one preaching AMFA seems to be able to count!

 

[Raptor]

I got the 3200 number from the TWU Informer for one place do you not remember this informer, and as for the 3000 Mechanics the Title 1 seniority was 16,000 now it is less than 13,000 is this not correct

and if I am wrong in something I say or post it is me that is wrong not AMFA as I am only a AMFA supporter not a Represenative or spokeman, I do not speak for AMFA I speak for me and what I believe is the truth, I will check the past and present seniority list to see what the Title 1 difference is, remember my opinions like yours are only our opinions as Mechanics we do not represent anyone but ourselves, which is once again why a Mechanic debate is pointless, it is the Leaders of the two Unions who have all the FACTS.

 

[TWU informer]

twuer,

I agree with you that 3000 mechanics were not laid off.

When you go check your numbers though, be sure to include all retirements, stand in steads, terminations, voluntary leaves, ect. Just as you do when you claim the AMFA numbers at NWA. Give us a total reduction in headcount.

In fact, give us a number that starts September 11th, 2001.

Total TWA Mechanic and Related 9/11/2001
Total AA Mechanic and Related 9/11/2001

vs.

Total AA/TWA combined Mechanic and Related as of Jan/01/2004

I think you'll find that indeed there has been over 3000 Mechanic and Related reduction in combined Mechanic and Related since 9/11/2001.

At least that is what I hear and understand.

If you want to be accurate, then must also want to be fair and count our number the same way you count AMFA/NWA. <_<

Be very careful, there may be documents to check your math and your answer.

 

[Raptor]

twuer

I believe the number of mechanics in TUL was about 720. I will get that exact number for you if you need to be hand fed.

I am not interested in how many were laid off from Tulsa alone that is irrelavant I only care about how many system wide are laid off, AA and TWA Mechanics.

and as stated above be carefull how you answer, I may not have the exact figures but there are people who do, it appears that right now neither one of us is exactly sure how many were laid off but my bet is around 3000 in total, and I do not believe that AA is done yet.

 

[twuer]

This is good information. . .

. . .the Company maintained that the above approach would require it to outsource a substantial amount of work. AA, therefore, responded with a proposal which allowed the mechanics to make some of the required savings by closing two heavy maintenance bases and outsourcing the work overseas, closing a number of small line stations, and ridding itself of all automotive and facilities mechanics. The Mechanic and Related Committee rejected this proposal and passed a resolution stating its intent not to reach its cost savings targets through further outsourcing or overseas maintenance. Only the two representatives from Local 561 and the President of Local 562 dissented.

Let me guess. . . AMFA supporters, right??

This is what AMFA will do for you and your job security!!!!! :down:

. . .the Company provided all unions with the proposals it intended to make pursuant to 11 U.S.C. § 1113 should it file for bankruptcy without consensual concessions. AA’s plan was to shrink operations by at least 25 percent in bankruptcy, its § 1113 proposal to TWU represented mechanics eliminated all protections against layoff, all restrictions on outsourcing, and called for elimination of over 10,000 mechanic and related workers, a concession which would have wiped out all automotive and facilities mechanics, and the bulk of our members in heavy maintenance bases. Similar reductions would occur within our other title groups. The proposal also called for over a threefold increase in the cost of health care coverage for active employees, more than a fourfold increase for retirees, and conversion of the defined benefit pension program to a cash balance plan. Even with all the above concessions, the Company would still be demanding a 13 percent reduction in pay and premiums with no stock, profit sharing, or wage snap backs for the remaining employees.

The AMFA supporters wanted to take the company into bankruptcy!! Which union do you want representing you???

A maximum of 1,481 mechanics were to be laid off based on efficiencies realized from the work rule changes adopted, but after conclusion of that layoff a job protection provision covering all mechanic and related hired before September 28, 1998 was to be instituted.

Hey Raptor, I thought you said it was 3000+?????????????

In tandem with the foregoing, on April 4, the AAA mailed out to the TWU’s members the ratification election ballot, together with balloting instructions. The balloting period, which was originally set as April 9 to April 14, was reset to run from the evening of April 10 to the morning of April 15 to take account of the protracted period for drafting the final contractual language, as well as a clerical error, which we became aware of shortly after ballots had been sent out. This error was the omission of 467 mechanic crew chiefs from the eligibility list sent to AAA, a mistake that was made because this group of members is kept on a separate seniority roster. We were alerted to this problem through complaints made to the Union, as well as to AAA. We remedied the mistake by transmitting the names of the 467 crew chiefs inadvertently omitted from the eligibility list to AAA on April 10, and confirmed receipt by AAA the morning of April 11. AAA arranged to allow this group of members to request pin numbers via E-Mail through the weekend up until Tuesday morning, and we posted instructions for doing so on the ATD website. Members of my staff were made available during this time frame to assist members in securing pin numbers. After conclusion of the election, AAA informed me that 200 out of the 467 eligible mechanic crew chiefs had voted.
Well, look at that Raptor. . .I thought you said 3200 didn't vote???????????

This information discredits AMFA and its supporters on what they think is best for AA mechanics!!!! Thye refuse to see the truth, or refuse to do their own fact finding.

 

[twuer]

Ok take a break...go watch some football.

I like you Mojo!!! That's the best post I've read all day!!!!!!

GO OU!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

You claim that 3000+ mechanics got laid off???? WRONG!!!! I think you should have resonded that 3000+ (if it is that high of a number) SYSTEM WIDE were affected. That is ALL classifications! The number of mechanics was not near that high. I don't have exact numbers but will get them, but this is the % I have compared to NWA (under AMFA), mechanics only. 45% at NWA were affected compared to 19% at AA. (approx) I believe the number of mechanics in TUL was about 720. I will get that exact number for you if you need to be hand fed.

And the 3200 that didn't get to vote? That's a wrong number too. As I recall AAA determined that number was closer to 200 and most of them were corrected by the voting deadline. How could you say 3200 people didn't get a PIN when the number who didn't even vote was just around 2400? The math doesn't add up. You need to check with the AMFA boys from 562. They had EVERY oppurtunity in their lawsuit in front of a Federal Court Judge to prove their claim that 3000+ (or whatever their number was) didn't get to vote but they couldn't do it. THEY FAILED!!!!!!! So, you need a better argument that the one that you have. The Pres Council voted to change the by-laws in order to accommidate the vote. So this vote was taken and agreed to unanimously by ALL the system presidents (including your's Dan). Or did you even know that???

So, if you are going to put up some information I wish that you would put up the RIGHT information. Oh, but wait, that's against the AMFA policies and procedures isn't it??!!

One more thing. . .if you are soooo wrong with these numbers then you are probably wrong about your AMFA cards too!!!! No one preaching AMFA seems to be able to count! [/QUOTE]


We have been losing mechanics jobs over a twenty year period.

Back in 83 the TWU took push backs and deicing away from mechanics and gave the work to lower paid Fleet Service clerks, this lowered the number of mechanics needed for day and afternoon shift. However since AA enjoyed an advantage here that no other carrier had they did not lay off, they offered an early out and did not replace those that left.

Back in 95 JFK lost its container shop and its tire shop. Around 40 mechanics jobs working day shift with weekends off dissappeared-permanently. However this was never counted as a "layoff," the jobs were simply eliminated through attrition, but attrition or not, they are jobs that are gone. Once again they offered an early out and did not replace those that left. In 95 the TWU also was the first major airline to create an entirely new class of low paid mechanics called SRPs.

Mechanics were told not to worry about the SRPS because they would only come in through attrition, however they were not clear in explaining that they meant "system attrition". Shortly after ratification mechanics in the shops found themselves getting booted out, displaced by lower paid SRPs. As mechanics retired in other stations mechanics in Tulsa were bounced out of shops. So while AA was making money the TWU was getting rid of A&P jobs at a slow, but constant rate even during the best of times.While the impact at NWA was a sudden one the fact is that we have been losing jobs with the TWU on a consistant basis for twenty years. So along with being the leader in concessions the TWU has been the leader at eliminating A&P jobs.

While other airlines may now be laying off more mechanics than AA the apparent disparity between carriers is due to the fact that other carriers are finally getting the concessions that the TWU gave AA over twenty years ago. However since the TWU has once again lowered the bar on the entire industry AA will still enjoy a cost advantage over the other carriers, even those that went BK.


The issue of the missing PIN numbers was moot because the Judge ruled that union members do not have the right to vote for their contract with the TWU, nor do we have the right to vote for the person who has the right to impose contracts on us at will. That is a big reason why we need to get rid of the TWU.

What gives the Presidents the right to violate the Constitution? The fact is the Presidents council has no real power. Show us where it can dictate to Sonny Hall or Jim Little what policy will be under the AA contract. The fact is that you cant because "the presidents council" is not party to the contract. While the Presidents council may have voted to allow electronic ballotting they did not vote to violate the Constitution as far as how much time we woould be given to vote.

As far as being off on the numbers, he may have been around 2000 off but didnt you say the TWU has 150,000 members when in fact it only has around 110,000. That means that you were around twenty times more inaccurate than he was.

 

[twuer]

TWU ATD Director finds it BIG NEWS that the TWU will not have to disclose their expenditures to the members for one more year.

How pathetic, anything to keep from being honest and up front with the membership.

screen capture from TWU ATD Director Update

Maybe they fear disclosing how much they wasted on a lawsuit attempting to overturn a law that doesn't even apply to those of us under the Railway Labor Act?

LABOR LAW REFORM

Oklahoma Supreme Court Upholds Right to Work

The Supreme Court of Oklahoma on Dec. 16 rejected two separate attempts by union lawyers to deny Oklahoma citizens the right to choose whether or not to join or support financially a union, upholding Oklahoma’s constitutional Right to Work amendment which was passed by statewide referendum in September 2001.

With its ruling the state’s Sup. Ct. effectively ended a two-year legal battle waged by attorneys for Gov. Frank Keating alongside National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation attorneys against union lawyers bent on reclaiming the privilege of compulsory unionism they enjoyed prior to that referendum. “Today is a great day for Oklahoma. No longer will there be a dark cloud over the Right to Work amendment that has already resulted in the creation of new jobs, an increase in wages, and more employee freedom compared to states without such protections,â€￾ said Stefan Gleason, Vice President of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation.

In Transport Workers Local 514 et al v. Keating et al, a U.S. Court of Appeals earlier ruled that certain ancillary provisions of the law are preempted by federal law such that it cannot apply to employees working, for example, on exclusive federal property or in the airline or railroad industry (as is the case with all other state Right to Work laws). However, the federal court accepted a request by Right to Work attorneys that the Oklahoma Sup. Ct. should decide the state law question of whether the federal preemption invalidates the entire Right to Work constitutional amendment. On the 16th, Oklahoma’s Sup. Ct. held that union lawyers could not prove their assertion that Oklahoma voters would somehow not have approved the Right to Work amendment if they had known that it could not be applied to every single employee in the state.

At the same time, the state's high court rejected arguments in a separate state court challenge to the Right to Work amendment. This past summer, Right to Work attorneys discovered the existence of a “collusive lawsuitâ€￾ filed with the apparent intention by both parties (union and employer) of voiding the state’s Right to Work law without serious arguments made by a party that sincerely supports the law. Discovering this, Foundation attorneys intervened in that suit representing Stephen Weese, a Tulsa-area employee, to ensure that the law was vigorously defended.

The Oklahoma Sup. Ct. rejected arguments raised by union lawyers in the collusive suit that the Right to Work constitutional amendment violated the due process and equal protections clauses of the Oklahoma constitution. The Oklahoma court followed U.S. Supreme Court precedents dating back to the 1940s that have rejected similar arguments under the U.S. Constitution. [

So are you saying that you are for RTW Informer????? I understand your argument here but it just goes to prove that you (being an AMFA supporter and with the mindset of AMFA) are in it for yourself and yourself only!!! It is a priviledge to be in union and no matter what union you are in you should fight for your other union brothers and sisters. It comes with the responsibility, in my opinion!!

I frankly take offense to your comments. Again, just my opinion. And again, your mindset. I will expect some rebuttal and criticism from you shortly! :boring:

 

[TWU informer]

twuer,

Since you appear to be the Official Spokesperson for the TWU, can you tell us...

Is there, or is there NOT, a requirement in the TWU Constitution for members to vote on or ratify letters of agreement that change the collective bargaining agreement?

Simple question, can you answer it?

 

[TWU informer]

So are you saying that you are for RTW Informer????? I understand your argument here but it just goes to prove that you (being an AMFA supporter and with the mindset of AMFA) are in it for yourself and yourself only!!! It is a priviledge to be in union and no matter what union you are in you should fight for your other union brothers and sisters. It comes with the responsibility, in my opinion!!

I frankly take offense to your comments. Again, just my opinion. And again, your mindset. I will expect some rebuttal and criticism from you shortly! :boring:

No I am not for RTW, it is irrelevant to those of us under the Railway Labor Act. Next Issue!

I am however, in favor of a requirement for a union to disclose it's expenditures.

I find it NO surprise that you take offfense to those comments. Since when would a TWU advocate favor open opinions in public? You are entitled to your opinion, and you are the one posting the criticism, not me.

 

[twuer]

twuer,

Since you appear to be the Official Spokesperson for the TWU, can you tell us...

Is there, or is there NOT, a requirement in the TWU Constitution for members to vote on or ratify letters of agreement that change the collective bargaining agreement?

Simple question, can you answer it?

Yes there is. . .spin away.

By the way, I'm really not the official spokesman for the TWU. Are you the official spokesman for AMFA?

 

[TWU informer]

Spin?

How about official COURT DOCUMENTS instead?


" The UNION'S REASONABLE AND CONSISTENT INTERPRETATION"


CHECK-MATE, want to play again?

 

[TWU informer]

By the way, I'm really not the official spokesman for the TWU. Are you the official spokesman for AMFA?

No I am not, that is why we wonder why you wrote Delle-Femine a letter asking for a debate, but did not invite him, but instead you want to debate AMFA Issues without an official spokesperson. And then didn't even sign the letter. Who the hell was that letter from anyway? Or is it a hoax?

Typical NON-Professional conduct. Have some unofficial spokesman debate, so you can run cover for the International TWU Dictators.

How about you give us your address and Delle-Femine can write you asking for a Debate with Sonny Hall. You can even answer for him.

 

[Raptor]

The current senoirity list is 12,099 title 1 Mechanics does anyone know what it was Feb. 2001 ? what seniority number is our card count based on at this time at one time it was about 16,000 ?

and TWUER as I said the 3200 not getting to vote came from the TWU Informer posted above did the TWU lie to us ?

 

[Bob Owens]

TWUER;

Would you say that the AUD(Association for Union Democracy) is a front group for RTW?

They are in favor of more disclosure, maybe not in favor of Elaine Chao's proposal but they are in favor of more disclosure. However Sonny Hall and Rojer Taust are terrified of it. Why is that? What are they hiding from the members?