American Eagle Pilots Express Outrage Over Concessionary Agreement

[gogogadget]

Like I said before, Section 1D is;


"Scope Exception: Commuter Air Carriers
1) Commuter Air Carriers and Limitations: The company or and Affiliate may create, aquire, maintain and equity position in, enter into franchise type agreements with, and/or codeshare with a Commuter Air Carrier, and flying by any such Commuter Air Carrier shall not be subject to the limitations of section 1.c above (scope), so long as any such Commuter Air Carrier operates in accordance with the limitations set forth in this section 1 D

2) Purpose; Intent of the Parties.
A Primary Purpose. The primary purpose of a Commuter Air Carrier is either to provide passenger and/or cargo revune "feed" to company flights and/or to "enhance" the Company''s overall market presence.

Definitions: Company; The term "Company" shall refer to American Airlines, Inc. (Not AMR)"

 

[jetdryvr]

767,

While I do not think we should have the right to Captain seats at AA (ie your comment about our MEC) I fail to see how it is ok for AA to do the very same grab at captain seats at AE. I can only assume ALPA MEC was trying for senority at AA as we have some very senior people. APA wants to take very junior people and place them in captain seats at AE.

We all want to see a positive end to the industry woes and all this job grabbing and bickering is not helping.

 

[heavy767]

Gavin McKenzie was there, good guy from South Africa. As I said before Herb can write all he wants, door is open. 67 jet cap was not a product of Supp.W it was negotiated at Orcas Island, before W was finalized. Best take another look at that grieveiance, AX costs more to run. Can''t say how much, proprietary info and I signed one of those confidentiality forms. Bad move for the ALPA EGL to break away, emotional decision. Don''t want to be on the outside.
Oh well.

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/2/2003 7:06:39 PM heavy767 wrote:

When it comes to the one airline when we discussed it with you MEC reps they decided to make such a grab that EMB Capt''s. would instantly be MD-80 Capt''s.
I think you will agree that is a bit of a grab.I do not speak second hand, I was there.
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You are full of it Heavy767. There was very little discussion about actual seniority when ALPA reps talk officially with APA. When seniority was discussed APA basically offered the staple job with no protection. Most the time was spent by our reps explaining what damage was being done by AX. During the official talks Eagle ALPA was represented by a committee of a few pilots. If you were there name one of the Eagle reps present.

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As for the person that says AX is cheaper, not so. AX is quite a bit more expensive than AE and you will find it will soon vanish.
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Really. I know an arbitrator who just said the opposite. He just ruled in favor of the company in our scope arbitration against AX STL. He clearly states that it was more economical for AMR to contract with the AX carriers in STL than to operate it with Eagle. AX is such a major threat that APA signed a LOA that deals with a jets for jobs proposal with them. Now I am supposed to believe they signed this LOA with the understanding they would soon disappear? Yea, Right.

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One more point to remember, AE owes it''s entire existence to Section 1.D of the AA pilots scope clause.Before further discussion on this subject I suggest you contact your MEC, let me know what they say.
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OK, so it is APA''s fault that Eagle even exists. Looks like APA f*cked up by letting any flying be done on behalf of AMR by pilots that are not at AA. It''s your fault now fix it.

John Darrah is the first APA President to figure out that they must recover all flying back to pilots on APA''s seniority list. Instead of just putting it on a back burner, APA has decided to throw it out with the trash and go for a grab of their own at Eagle''s toys.

Your response with the Section 1D comment is typical of arrogant APA pilots that don''t have any real answers to the problem at hand. I guess I should just be happy that APA lets me exist.

Heavy767,

I will ask you the same thing I asked googoo boy. How is it that APA and AMR can renegotiate a 4 party agreement with just 2 parties?

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/2/2003 7:12:43 PM heavy767 wrote:

Just saw the above piece sorry. I saw Herb down at APA HQ a couple of weeks ago. AE ALPA doesn''t have to write to APA they can just come over as they usually do. Door is always open.
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Really? I have a copy of a "Dear John" letter that indicates otherwise. Once again Heavy767, you are full of it. See letter below:



May 2 2003

John Darrah
President Allied Pilots Association
OConnell Building
14600 Trinity Blvd., Suite 500
Fort Worth, TX 76155-2512

RE: AMR Labor Coalition


Dear Captain Darrah:

Given the fact that the APA has taken it upon itself to negotiate agreements affecting the rules or working conditions covering pilots of American Eagle represented by ALPA and has subsequently refused to engage ALPA in any manner, this is to advise that the Eagle MEC no longer wants to be identified as part of an AMR Labor Coalition with the APA.

Since the March 31 announcement of these agreements, Eagle MEC representatives have attempted to contact you by every possible means in order to begin a dialogue. There has been no response from you or anyone else with the APA. Clearly, the AMR Labor Coalition has proved ineffective in addressing Eagle pilot interests.

Accordingly, we have concluded that in fact there is no reason for our continued participation in the AMR Labor Coalition. The billboard identifying ALPA as part of the AMR Labor Coalition should be removed. I trust that this will be accomplished without delay.

We regret that this decision is necessary.

Yours truly,
Herb Mark Chairman, EGL-MEC

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One more thing, no one has a god given right to fly any airplane, it''s what you negotiate.
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Eagle ALPA did negotiate the right to fly 67 RJs between 45-70 seats. We are flying 70 seat RJs as negotiated. You might want to read Supplement W it will explain it in detail.

 

[heavy767]

Here''s the problem, and your question is valid. The situation that presented it''s self was that we were about to have substantial number of pilots on the street while EGL would be expanding due to the fact that our scope clause now allows EGL to order vastly more hulls, that would be an untenable situation do you not agree?

 

[jetdryvr]

Scope was going to have to change or APA would have lost alot more jobs. If AA pilots who normally look down on us at AE (not all do) want to fly at AE outside of the negotiated 4 party agreement then let them come to the bottom flying what their senority would hold. The flow agreement will expire before all of the APA pilots are gone and I guarantee when they leave and renegotiate they will want to slap scope right back on. As for AE pilots we will have paid and once again there will be very little opportunity for us at the main line while they continue to higher off the street. One may say apply well I have and most of us have at AE it is the same ole story, your not competitive because you only have several thousand hours flying in the weather, makeing numerous approaches everyday , did not meet a demographic number, not a squadren budddy, or an intern.

I have no problem with the guys using the flowback as it was written (poorly) as that was what was agreed to. It is funny how APA is all over the flow back but turned there noses up at us when we asked for help when the company did not honor the flow up correctly. I hardly call around 100 guys going up a good deal compared to several hundred coming back.

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/3/2003 1:57:39 AM heavy767 wrote:

Here's the problem, and your question is valid. The situation that presented it's self was that we were about to have substantial number of pilots on the street while EGL would be expanding due to the fact that our scope clause now allows EGL to order vastly more hulls, that would be an untenable situation do you not agree?

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Most definitely I agree. Instead of sitting down with the Eagle MEC and working out a mutual solution, APA chose to agree to the TA which illegally promises things AMR cannot give you. AMR doesn't care, because you signed off on it and avoided Chapter 11 for now. They know it will be eventually arbitrated which will cost much less than the cost of Chapter 11.

There is nothing in the TA that says EGL will expand. It simply allows for substantial growth at the supplemental commuter carriers. Why should Eagle pilots give up a concession to APA and AMR when there is no guarantee of a benefit for them? Give the Eagle pilots more specific contract language, and you will get agreement with ALPA.

The question is still not been answered. How can APA and AMR change a binding 4 party agreement without the agreement of those 4 parties?

The answer is they can't.

Now APA and AMR will eventually be forced into negotiations with Eagle ALPA to resolve this problem. Why not just include Eagle ALPA in the original negotiations?

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/3/2003 1:54:01 AM heavy767 wrote:

Gavin McKenzie was there, good guy from South Africa. As I said before Herb can write all he wants, door is open. 67 jet cap was not a product of Supp.W it was negotiated at Orcas Island, before W was finalized. Best take another look at that grieveiance, AX costs more to run. Can't say how much, proprietary info and I signed one of those confidentiality forms. Bad move for the ALPA EGL to break away, emotional decision. Don't want to be on the outside.
Oh well.
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Here is an idea. How about Darrah respond in a letter to the Eagle MEC so that it can be published for all of Eagle pilots to read and digest for themselves. No reps from APA want to talk to EGL ALPA reps because they are ashamed of what they felt forced to do. If they wanted to talk they would invite ALPA to an official meeting. The fact that APA has not officially responded to ALPA's letters and phone calls only adds to the credibility of the views of the ALPA MEC.

You are right the 67 jet cap was negotiated at Orcas Island and both AA and APA asked for Eagle to join them to fix their problem. Homer went to represent the Eagle MEC and was a critical part of those negotiations. Those negotiations had everything to do with Supplement W, and you know it. Just because Supplement W was not finalized there is not relevent.

The AX contract with Chautauqua has been public information for some time now and is not private by any means. The other AX contracts were revealed to our MEC during the SCOPE arbitration. There is no second look. We lost the arbitration and the arbitrator said it was more economical for AMR to contract with AX when it comes to the STL operation. If you want I will send you a copy of the arbitrators ruling.

You some how think it is a bad move for Eagle to drop out of the AMR labor coalition because we will be on the outside. APA has already put us on the outside. Was that not one of our coalition brothers who just hosed me? They did not even say they are sorry for what they felt like they had to do.

The APA has become enemy number one for the pilots of Eagle, and you have no one to blame except yourselves. Instead of trying to fix the SCOPE and outsourcing issues together with the Eagle ALPA, APA has chosen to make a stupid last minute grab for their junior pilots.

 

[VIPER2]

I think I can sum up this whole thing from a Eagle pilots prospective. Once again we find ouselves without hope for a productive future. Our most senior pilots 12-26 years AMR seniority will be forced to retire at age 60 after literally thousands of cycles and years of service without ever seeing mainline equipment and pay. Most of the FO''s at Eagle are now realizing that even after the airlines recover and AA recalls all pilots, the best they can hope for is ERJ Captain. Most Eagle pilots would have bent right over and taken it from behind willingly if they had a chance to move on to higher paying equipment when we get through these trying times. Most APA pilots know, but for those of you who don''t, better than 40% of Eagle pilots are either flying actively in the reserves or were former military pilots representing virtually all military fleet types, so spare me the experience angle of why Eagle pilots don''t get hired by AA.Many of my guard buddies with less military time or distinguishments walked right of the street into AA, while my application was never picked up, because of two words on it "AMERICAN EAGLE". Obviously had I known this I would have never shown up for class. Give us a little break if we seem a bit offended that despite AA pilots and Eagle pilots bringing this airline back from the dead (and it will take both of us to do it), we still have no future. AA will hire off the streets in front of us the day they need pilots.That may be 10-years from now, but AA will need pilots again some day. I think the statement "My airline is broke now I need to use yours" is pretty accurate. The thing is, we would have gladely loaned it to you in exchange for a piece of yours when things get better. I will continue to treat AA flowbacks with the same respect that I treat the ones I fly with now in the CRJ-700 (as a six year FO). It''s not their fault they got fourlouged. The same respect and a future with AA is all any Eagle pilot want''s. I know we have our extreemist, but so do you. I''ll probably get flamed from both Eagle pilots and AA pilots, but I believe what I have written most closely represents the majority feelings of the rank and file of American Eagle Pilots.

 

[Winglet]

You got it right Viper. The age of the "major" airline pilot is dead. Bin Lauden and the myopic vision of airline leadership assured that.

Keep in mind that mainline American will probably furlough a full 25% of the entire seniority list. Those traditional mainline jobs are going away. The contract that the APA surrendered to virtually assures that they will come back to a C-scale compensation (e.g. "cost neutral" with Eagle). That''s the "major" job that you''re looking at getting in the future, also.

And, you can bet that it''s going to get worse when AMR files for BK in a few months. Then they''ll be coming after even more concessions . . . but especially . . . drum roll, please . . . pensions. The recent TA is only the warm-up.

 

[LD max]

Viper2
You hit it on the head. The whole reason Eagle pilots are furious about all this is that we were totally and maliciously left out..again. Eagle''s opinions, ideas, hopes and desires obviously matter nothing to APA and AMR in the struggle for our collective survival. Whatever happened to "teamwork". Eagle once again is left off the field and renegated to "bat boy".
When things were good ( 98 - 01 ), of 3000 pilots hired at AA, 124 were flow throughs. Approximately 250 - 300 were from Eagle "off the street". Again..."batboy",.. "back of the bus"!!
It is a matter of respect. Why did the APA shoot us in the back with this TA? We had/have a flow through - flow back agreement. Why not play by the rules? Why do many AA pilots look away in the terminal? Are we that bad? Our statistics show otherwise. We don''t crash. We do an excellant job considering our shoe string treatment. Most guys I know at Eagle are really good people. I am certain we have earned more respect than we have been given.
If the APA is "threatened" by Eagle possesing "their" flying, then why not make an honest, fair effort to bring us on board? Why stir up the whipsaw, which AMR loves so dearly, with this sneaky TA deal?
I agree that in order for the company to survive, we all need to work together.
To those that think Eagle is growing,... How can Eagle have pilots on furlough, be currently furloughing and selling planes if it''s "growing"? The only "regional" feed for AMR that is growing is the American Connection in STL. Funny how the APA TA did not address that. Look for more AX growth!

 

[gogogadget]

Cleared direct,

You and this myopic view of "there is nothing in this TA that "SAYS" eagle will expand is getting old. There is also nothing in this TA that says AA is guaranteed the CRJ700, it all has to pass muster first!

If you honestly believe that Eagle will just sit back and replace TP 1 for 1 and call it quits, then you are smoking! Especially after all the rif-raf with the sju eagle sale and Transtates! You assume the CRJ700 is going away but you do not assume eagle growing? What is wrong with this picture?

The only thing that is a definate in all of this that Eagle now "HAS" the ability to increase and the orders "Are" in place to make that happen. AA and AMR have a year to negotiate the transfer of the CRJ to the AA certificate at which point if unable to come to an agreement which is cost neutral and if that fails AA has the option to keep the crj at eagle and then only the captain seats will be filled via sup w.

Other than that everything else is a guess!

 

[gogogadget]

Viper2,

I tend to agree with your analogy. Eagle pilots being left in the cold is redundant and there is a need to blame someone. APA is the logical because it is at AA where most Eagle pilots aspire to be, regardless of their background. What I think was different about this was not a seat grab as many call it. Being that AA was the one most effected by this turn down, and being that mainline Unions were the ones that were actually given the ultimatum of "Accept or BK". It is my opinion that because of the current and former nature of AMR corp, via the divide and conquer theory, all of this was able to happen. It is also my opinion that if Eagle had either an open contract or was also included in the 1.8 billion employee concession, there would be one list right now and the bitc&*( would be over some other issue like senority. But it did not happen that way.

Unfortunately every single time something good happens, it is usually blocked by AMR. The flow through the flow back even the crj700 is not set in stone because of the grey areas AMR is and was able to capitalize on. It is not entirely APA''s fault. I say this because many Eagle pilots only see what is on the surface and that being the loss of 25-50 CRJ700 and associated pay. Many are looking at the "Potential for upgrade in the Crj 700" while also failing to realize the "potential for ERJ increase" also. The view is somewhat myopic.

Let me ask anyone this one question; What is a "Good" reason APA wants 51 seats and above? Without getting into adjectives like greed and egos, think about it? Stepping back and looking at it from the observers seat, Industry reports are already specultaing and counting on the rise in 70 seaters and above. If that is true and AA does start ramping up on these things, then that means recall of furloughees sooner and also the resumption of flow through. And while the Flow through wasnt the prettiest, would someone like to cont the eagle pilots that resigned to go to AA and UAL and DAL and SWA? How many want to leave Eagle now to do the same at jetblue and airtran and others?

I personally have a lot of respect for Eagle pilots and their views and varied backgrounds. Being a civilian myself, coming up, I also realize that there are many people on both sides, especially those from the military side that say they deserve to be at AA and Even viper himself said he would never have signed on with eagle if he couldnt get to AA because of the Politics of AMR hiring. (not to fly the CRJ 700) Eagle will take a hit when it comes to the Crj700, you have a right to be upset, you also have the right to be upset at the fact that Eagle exists soley to support AA operations (section 1D) and that at this point in the game everything at AMR revolves around AA. And as has been proven wwith TWA and Reno, APA is usually handed a loaded deck and told to play. I am not tryng to be vicious, just honest.

 

[Winglet]

You're giving the APA WAY too much credit to say that they "negotiated" anything. Judging by the pay cuts (in relation to UAL, and probables at NW & DAL) and how they just threw the bottom 25% of their membership out of the lifeboat, I think they just signed the contract that Carty pushed across the table to them. If they could care less about 25% of their own membership, you can imagine what regard they give AE.

I think the present APA leadership has done more to damage what little's left of this profession than anybody.