American Eagle Pilots Express Outrage Over Concessionary Agreement

[gogogadget]

Cleared Direct,

If you look at the basic premise of "what" the eagle pilots are upset about, "The changing of a four part agreement without consent of eagle" Eagle has the right to be upset, and I cannot defend the position of either group because I do not know the extent of How 2 groups could legally do it. There has to be some legal explination as to how it was done and why they did not need eagles participation. Right now the general population at eagle just knows what their MEC told them. Anyone in their right mind would be upset, the questions is was it legal and if so, there is no bitc(*ng if not you have a legitimate beef which needs to be resolved. I can not answer that.

But, What I am defending is the "Why" as it applies to the larger picture, outsourcing at Eagle, other commuters and other Foreign carriers.

The part about Sup W, I have read it, and when I pasted the quote it was in reply to your quote "Eagle pilots agreed to let APA pilots flow back to Eagle''s RJ Captain seats in exchange for 3 major things:" #2 stated the right to a senority number at AA (which in itself implies, in this quote, Your and many other eagle pilots do not intend to even fly the CRJ700.) The CRJ if I am not mistaken was also slated for the few Eagle pilots that did not select the flow through.

I cannot guess as to what the exact fleet count at Eagle is this very moment. Like I said before, when you split hairs we both loose. What I do know is that AMR''s 8k filing stated the year end fleet projections as pertaining to retirements and new aircraft received at eagle and AA. I also know that by the end of 2005 Eagle will have a significant increase in aircraft over what they have today and it has been increasing for the past few years. I can not help that AMR sold the ATR''s in one lump sale, that is the economics of the airline industry, just the same as the decision to speed up the parking of F100 aircraft. At the end of the day though it is the final fleet count that matters. It is not me believing the union Kool-aid, it might be you as you keep doubting my publically obtained information.

Jetdrvyr,

Your post is BS. You should not go into the more qualified argument. It simply does not apply. Who is more qualified to fly the CRJ700? An eagle captain that has never flown it? (They would be the ones bidding the Captain seat) or an AA fo that has never flown it? ATR captains had no problem upgrading to the Jet and many ATR FO''s had no problem upgrading to the Captain seat on the Jet. Same goes for guys at AA moving from Captain seat to captain seat with no time in the aircraft. The guys at AA that flow back are at the bottom of the list, with the one exception of retaining the Captin seat and the pay that goes with the seat. Year 1 RJ captin pay. They will be sitting reserve for many many years. Many many eagle guys have flowed up and even resigned Eagle to take positions at AA, these same people have the some of the same egoes you speak of, they all forget from whince the came.

 

[Duditz]

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On 5/1/2003 910 PM gogogadget wrote:

Jetdrvyr,

Your post is BS. You should not go into the more qualified argument. It simply does not apply.

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I''d be more than happy to go into the more qualified argument - I''ll start it by saying that a 12 to 20 year Eagle CAPTAIN is more qualified than an AA FO without command experience to be a Captain on a CRJ or any other aircraft for that matter. I and most of my fellow senior Captains at Eagle have been Captains longer than some of these guys have had drivers licenses.

Re an earlier reply, AA also exists to feed the bottom line of the AMR Corporation - therefore, Eagle also does by extension.

Lose & Loose are not the same word.

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/1/2003 910 PM gogogadget wrote:

Cleared Direct,

If you look at the basic premise of "what" the eagle pilots are upset about, "The changing of a four part agreement without consent of eagle" Eagle has the right to be upset, and I cannot defend the position of either group because I do not know the extent of How 2 groups could legally do it.
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Gogogadget,

First, thanks for atleast addressing the real question about what is the real point of contention.

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There has to be some legal explination as to how it was done and why they did not need eagles participation.
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You are dreaming! There is no legal defense to it and AMR knows that. What has happened is that AMR has promised APA something they cannot give. They did this to get APA to sign off on the TA completely knowing that they would lose the legal battle. Once they lose what can APA do? Ask for the whole TA to be thrown out? I don't think so. AMR is hoping for some type of arbitrated settlement. This settlement would easily out weigh the cost of not getting APA to sign off on the TA and Chapter 11. What they did not count on is how this attempt at changing a contractual agreement would be looked at by other main line carriers. Specifically, Delta is watching this very closely to see if it could be used during their concession talks with their pilots.

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Right now the general population at eagle just knows what their MEC told them. Anyone in their right mind would be upset, the questions is was it legal and if so, there is no bitc(*ng if not you have a legitimate beef which needs to be resolved. I can not answer that.
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Eagle pilots have learned to think for themselves after what they have been through over the years. It does not take the ALPA MEC to tell us we are being screwed. All you have to do is read the TA and attached LOAs. All you have to do is ask yourself why did APA pursue a UNITY campaign with Eagle labor groups and now negotiate to steal our aircraft (not routes) away from us. All you have to do is wonder why APA won't even return any calls or letters to Eagle ALPA. Yes Eagle pilots can think for themselves.

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But, What I am defending is the "Why" as it applies to the larger picture, outsourcing at Eagle, other commuters and other Foreign carriers.
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Eagle pilots understand the big outsourcing and SCOPE issues. The outsourcing of our jobs to the American Connection carriers has made that all to clear. This is why we participated to some degree in the UNITY push by APA. Its goals were to keep the flying at AMR and negotiate some type of one list. Now it appears to either have been a total scam or maybe APA is more worried about saving their members pensions than re-capturing all AMR flying.

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The part about Sup W, I have read it, and when I pasted the quote it was in reply to your quote "Eagle pilots agreed to let APA pilots flow back to Eagle's RJ Captain seats in exchange for 3 major things:" #2 stated the right to a senority number at AA (which in itself implies, in this quote, Your and many other eagle pilots do not intend to even fly the CRJ700.) The CRJ if I am not mistaken was also slated for the few Eagle pilots that did not select the flow through.
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You obviously don't know what is going on at Eagle at all. The majority of the CRJ-700 Captains have numbers on APA's seniority list and are not "Eagle Rights" Captains. A large portion of the senior "Eagle Rights" Captains are holding off from bidding the CRJ-700 for a number of reasons. The aircraft is still relatively new and breaks down often. Just like any new aircraft added at an airline, it takes a while to work out the operational bugs. In fact the CRJ-700 has had a major fuel AD that prevents it from being used on longer trips. The CRJ-700 lines are low time compared to the EMJ right now. The CRJ-700 is only based out of DFW for now also.

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I cannot guess as to what the exact fleet count at Eagle is this very moment. Like I said before, when you split hairs we both loose. What I do know is that AMR's 8k filing stated the year end fleet projections as pertaining to retirements and new aircraft received at eagle and AA. I also know that by the end of 2005 Eagle will have a significant increase in aircraft over what they have today and it has been increasing for the past few years.
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Forget about fleet projections. I am talking about actual numbers currently and in the past. Eagle can't legally grow under the ASM restrictions that it was under. If they had APA would be all over it. Instead what happened is reverse code share at American Connection with the new AX code. And yes, APA is very concerned with that and even addressed it in the TA.

You think Eagle will have a significant increase in aircraft at the end of 2005. I got news for you. Most of the expansion will be at cheaper American Connection. APA pilots will staff a large portion of these expansion aircraft also.

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At the end of the day though it is the final fleet count that matters. It is not me believing the union Kool-aid, it might be you as you keep doubting my publically obtained information.
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If that is what you truly believe than you are contributing to the continued erosion of the airline pilot career as it once was. Who cares how many planes your company has if you are flying for the lowest wages and under the worst contract rules in the industry. You will help perpetuate the fight between mainline and feeder until we all lose.

At first I thought you were drinking APA Kool-Aid, but now I think you might be a Kool-Aid mom who makes it.

 

[bluesideup]

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On 5/1/2003 12:30:29 PM gogogadget wrote:

Blueside,

You were the one thatbrought up the 3 points of honoring the contract, which also included (which also included the provision of "flow Back, which you failed to mention, conviently) Which also must be honered and is only to the extent AMR wnats it to be via exceptioins)

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Gogo I didn't conviently forget anything. If you look at the TA you are talking about that section no longer exists it plainly says deleted. But you seem to have taken just the best parts for you in the new TA. Such as super seniority, flowing back as captains, dispalacement rights and many more all the while negating any of the advantages it once offered us. For example under sup W we were not allowed AA numbers and no one flowed over during the TWA acqusition and that is why TWA did not have flow back rights during the first furlough but with the new TA once the master shuffle is done all of a sudden EX-TWA people will be able to come to Eagle.

There are many other ineqiuties that this TA is ripe with and all will be pursued to the point that it will make it uneconomical for AMR to allow this to ever come to fruition.

Another thing you dare to lecture me on bringing the industry down. With this TA APA has begun a race to the bottom. They have negotiated a deal to stick aircraft on mainline property flown at regional wages. Of course you realize that when/if the CRJ's ever make it over to AA that the FO will start out around $26 hour and top out at $35 after 6 years all with no retirement and flown at regional work rules. Talk about selling out the profession.

You also realize that the senior people that stay over at AA and become those FO's will be making far less than those that are junior and flying as captains at AE. This is but a few of the major faults that this TA brings to this pilot group and the airline industry.

My airline is broken can I have yours?

 

[jetdryvr]

My post is not BS. Duditz you obviously are a captain and so I do not think we will be seeing you come back now will we. Lets see I bet the average AE Captain has far more time and experience than the guys coming back from AA. So yes they are more qualified. We already have problems with some of the original flowabcks that came back via the agreement.

Very few guys have flown up to AA and yes about 300 have worthless senority numbers at AA. The flow agreement expires in 2007 do you relly think we will see any benefit her at AE?

A couple of you keep posting that we will have a large growth in 50 and less seat jets and that this will provide alot of opportunity for AE pilots well you seem to forget APA wants those captain seats also at AE and other AX carriers.

If you want to use the flowback agreement to provide furlough porotection I have no problem, only you dont want to use the original, only parts of it that do not restrict your flowback or can flowback. I do not want to see anybodies pilots hit the street but APA is attacking my job and I have every right to defend it. Life is hell at AE and APA once to take the one little thing we have to look forward to here at AE. Not one APA pilot has yet to show me where this is a good thing for AE pilots.

With as many of you that will come back you very few of you will be on reserve while those of us that have been her for years take it in the back side.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/2/2003 1037 AM gogogadget wrote:


AMR will continually drive their costs down until working for a major means working for Eagle,.......


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Technically, Eagle is a Major airline as per the DOT and has been for a couple years.

Sorry to interject there, resume debate.

 

[gogogadget]

Cleard direct,

"If that is what you truly believe than you are contributing to the continued erosion of the airline pilot career as it once was. Who cares how many planes your company has if you are flying for the lowest wages and under the worst contract rules in the industry. You will help perpetuate the fight between mainline and feeder until we all lose."

This is exactly what I am talking about, and as long as there are commuters such as eagle and comair and ACA, that continue to push the limits of the size of aircraft they fly, then the erosion of the airline industry aw we know it will grow exponentially. Would you rather fly the CRJ at AA or Eagle, plain and simple. AMR will continually drive their costs down until working for a major means working for Eagle, working conditions and all! By puting the CRJ and 51 seats and above on the AA list, you will effectively limit the growth and erosion of airline flying as we know it.

But it is OK, yes DAL and others are watching what happens because we all know that when one does it the others will follow. If Eagle fights hard enough to keep the 51 seats and greater on their inferior pay and work rule and benefit side of the fence, AMR will certainly continue to find aircraft that will fill the gap between the 51seater and AA''s newest small aircraft the S80.

The emb 170 and 175 and 190 are already on the way and headed to a commuter and guess what they will pay? If for once you think that fighting for and Aircraft for a small pay raise just to leave it to fly for another airline where you can make real money and fly nicer aircraft is worth it, then you really need to lay off the Kool-aid! Any Eagle pilots that think Eagle is the end all to be all when another opportunity exists to move up then what can I say. (Does not include the minority of pilots that are Eagle Rights and senior guys brought together by consilidation) Everyone else that is bitc(*&*& about the pay and the "Better" flying and the "Better" pay and the lack of opportunities really need to think about where that Better is. Eagle Captain on a State of the Art RJ is just as qualified to fly on AA''s aircraft for AA pay but like so many other people want to bring people down to their level rather than making opportunities at higher levels.

 

[heavy767]

Hold the phone. There is a bigger picture here. Yes the AA pilots MAY fly the 700 but not ALL captain seats on the 50 belong to them, only the ones that come from an aggregate increase in fleet size. Example, if AE sells a SAAB and buys a jet no-dice, if they buy a jet then the AA pilot gets to flow back. I can understand your pain and outrage this is far from over. The one airline initiative is far from dead and in my view this is one step closer.Let''s not forget AE can now get 660 jets. Please try and refrain from posting veiled threats of "Eagle is hell" nonsense. The pilots flowing back had nothing to do with negotiating the agreement and therefore should not have to suffer abuse, furthermore there is an implicit safety issue envolved.I believe the AE pilots to be a very proffessional group and will have nothing to do with this childishness. Nuff said.
Now, let''s get on with the business of aviating and how do we make the industry profitable again? Any ideas.

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/2/2003 12:55:41 PM heavy767 wrote:

Hold the phone. There is a bigger picture here. Yes the AA pilots MAY fly the 700 but not ALL captain seats on the 50 belong to them, only the ones that come from an aggregate increase in fleet size. Example, if AE sells a SAAB and buys a jet no-dice, if they buy a jet then the AA pilot gets to flow back.
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No one has ever contested that fact.

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I can understand your pain and outrage this is far from over. The one airline initiative is far from dead and in my view this is one step closer.
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If this is APA's way of getting closer to one airline, they will fail miserably.

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Let's not forget AE can now get 660 jets.
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Only if AMR decides that is what they want and that they want to put them at Eagle. Eagle pilots have no guarantees of any growth. The scope concession given to AMR by APA was for all supplemental commuter carriers not just Eagle. This new growth will go to American Connection because it does not take as much money and provides a higher profit.

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Please try and refrain from posting veiled threats of "Eagle is hell" nonsense. The pilots flowing back had nothing to do with negotiating the agreement and therefore should not have to suffer abuse, furthermore there is an implicit safety issue envolved.I believe the AE pilots to be a very proffessional group and will have nothing to do with this childishness. Nuff said.
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Eagle is hell, and APA just turned up the heat. Our beef is with the APA and AMR. APA represents AA pilots. AMR and APA pilots ratified the TA with out asking for any input from Eagle ALPA. Eagle pilots will aggressively fight for their rights with or without ALPA National. Eagle pilots will continue to conduct themselves in a profesional manner under these very stressful times. How professional is it for APA not to return any letters or phone calls to the Eagle ALPA MEC? There is but one child here, and it is the APA trying to steal Eagles best toys. Nuff said.

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Now, let's get on with the business of aviating and how do we make the industry profitable again? Any ideas.
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How about one airline genius?

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/2/2003 1037 AM gogogadget wrote:

This is exactly what I am talking about, and as long as there are commuters such as eagle and comair and ACA, that continue to push the limits of the size of aircraft they fly, then the erosion of the airline industry aw we know it will grow exponentially. Would you rather fly the CRJ at AA or Eagle, plain and simple. AMR will continually drive their costs down until working for a major means working for Eagle, working conditions and all! By puting the CRJ and 51 seats and above on the AA list, you will effectively limit the growth and erosion of airline flying as we know it.
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What you clearly don't understand is that APA has lowered the pay and working rules at a main line carrier to the lowest point ever. To protect the A and B funds of the pilots at AA, the APA has conceded to flying the CRJ-700 for even less than Eagle pilots! They agreed to transfer the CRJs to AA under a labor cost neutral scenario. They have a year to come up with a finalized agreement. Until then, APA pilots will fly the CRJs at Eagle for first year Eagle Captain pay. The average pay for the CRJ Captains averages at 17 years of pay. APA pilots will also fly them under the Eagle working rules.

When the CRJs are actually transferred to AA, they will even displace CRJ Captains who have seniority numbers on APA's seniority list that are senior enough not to be furloughed even at AA.

Just like when APA created the B scale, they have once again lowered the bar at main line carriers to sacrifice their young.

When APA started Section 6 negotiations they were pushing for UNITY and one list to prevent the outsourcing and erosion of their jobs. I believe this was the correct course to take. Unfortunately they dropped it like a hot potato when AMR revealed their financial problems and threatened their retirement. Now they try to steal Eagles best toys and secure additional jobs at Eagle outside of the original 4 party agreement. In addition they don't even attempt to stop the outsourcing of jobs at American Connection. In fact they even sign a jets for jobs agreement with them.

Under the threat of Chapter 11, APA cratered and brought main line carriers to an all time low.

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But it is OK, yes DAL and others are watching what happens because we all know that when one does it the others will follow. If Eagle fights hard enough to keep the 51 seats and greater on their inferior pay and work rule and benefit side of the fence, AMR will certainly continue to find aircraft that will fill the gap between the 51seater and AA's newest small aircraft the S80.
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Eagle pilots would love to see all flying done by AA if they could get a piece of the pie. It is obvious that APA does not want to share so of course Eagle pilots will fight to keep their toys.

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The emb 170 and 175 and 190 are already on the way and headed to a commuter and guess what they will pay? If for once you think that fighting for and Aircraft for a small pay raise just to leave it to fly for another airline where you can make real money and fly nicer aircraft is worth it, then you really need to lay off the Kool-aid! Any Eagle pilots that think Eagle is the end all to be all when another opportunity exists to move up then what can I say. (Does not include the minority of pilots that are Eagle Rights and senior guys brought together by consilidation) Everyone else that is bitc(*&*& about the pay and the "Better" flying and the "Better" pay and the lack of opportunities really need to think about where that Better is. Eagle Captain on a State of the Art RJ is just as qualified to fly on AA's aircraft for AA pay but like so many other people want to bring people down to their level rather than making opportunities at higher levels.
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Times are changing dude. Mainline unions allowed the so called regionals to grow to big. Even during growth times APA and ALPA National were not willing to seriously address single seniority list issues. In doing such they have allowed the future of their careers to be changed for the worse. The mainline job will never get back to where it was until there is one pilot seniority list at every carrier that does all the flying for that carrier.

Today there are very few other opportunities that you speak of. If they exist they are at Low Cost Carriers who will eventually be better paid then you.

Thanks to APA the chance of a one list operation is all but gone. With no chance for upgrade at Eagle now, we will lose a large number of FOs. Some will find other opportunities in aviation and others will get out all together. The Eagle pilots that are left will fight for what little they have now.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/30/2003 4:16:11 PM Cleared Direct wrote:

American Connection is where the growth will be. The 110% applies to the total amount from all supplemental commuter carriers not just Eagle. I got big news for you. Eagle is to expensive and already getting to big for AMR. AMR will expand at the AX carriers for all the obvious reasons:


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Has anyone else noticed that AMR''s financial reports now report stats from the "Regional Affiliates" as opposed to "American Eagle". What gives? Eagle, as an AMR Company, is now being lumped in with non-AMR companies as far as operating stats.

 

[gogogadget]

This just off the press:

FORT WORTH, Texas, May 2 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- American Eagle Airlines today reported systemwide traffic for April increased 13.5 percent from April 2002, on a capacity increase of 14.4 percent. System load factor was 63.1 percent, down 0.5 points from April 2002.
American Eagle boarded 1.2 million passengers in April, up 3.9 percent from April 2002

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American Airlines'' April Traffic Falls 4.8%
Thursday May 1, 8:00 pm ET


FORT WORTH, Texas -- AMR Corp.''s American Airlines reported an April traffic decrease of 4.8%, to 9.3 billion revenue passenger miles from 9.8 billion in April of 2002.
A revenue passenger mile is one paying passenger flown one mile.

In the same period, the carrier saw capacity fall 6.5%, to 13.2 billion available seat miles from 14.1 billion a year earlier.


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Between the two, it looks like capacity is the name of the game and Eagle is winning this one, or is it that Eagle is shrinking?

 

[gogogadget]

Cleard direct,

I agree, APA has set a low with this contract. I will be the first to admit that it sucks, but does eagle have a A or B fund? We can point fingers all day long including the length of the current eagle contract. We were both put under the gun. APA was not the first to start this though. USAirways was the first and UAL was second and NOW look at DAL and NWA!! They just follow! No one leads but Southwest!

No matter how you look at it, right now, even with our reduced pay and increased work rules, it is still a better QOL than Eagle right now, Yes? DAL will definately be looking at the future placement of their RJ''s and where would you rather fly the larger aircraft, Comair or DAL?

The bar at AA is lowered, it can be recovered over time and we will work to do that, along with the outsourcing issue and, at least in my book, to get the eagle pilots on the AA list with a retirement and more of a variety of flying and equipment.

 

[heavy767]

When it comes to the one airline when we discussed it with you MEC reps they decided to make such a grab that EMB Capt''s. would instantly be MD-80 Capt''s. I think you will agree that is a bit of a grab.I do not speak second hand, I was there. Yes you are right APA represents AA pilots we are not authorized to represend AE pilots. What else is new. You say that AE will only get 660 jets if AMR wants to, what else in new? That has always been the case. As for the person that says AX is cheaper, not so. AX is quite a bit more expensive than AE and you will find it will soon vanish. One more point to remember, AE owes it''s entire existence to Section 1.D of the AA pilots scope clause.Before further discussion on this subject I suggest you contact your MEC, let me know what they say.

 

[heavy767]

Eagle is hell, and APA just turned up the heat. Our beef is with the APA and AMR. APA represents AA pilots. AMR and APA pilots ratified the TA with out asking for any input from Eagle ALPA. Eagle pilots will aggressively fight for their rights with or without ALPA National. Eagle pilots will continue to conduct themselves in a profesional manner under these very stressful times. How professional is it for APA not to return any letters or phone calls to the Eagle ALPA MEC? There is but one child here, and it is the APA trying to steal Eagles best toys. Nuff said

Just saw the above piece sorry. I saw Herb down at APA HQ a couple of weeks ago. AE ALPA doesn''t have to write to APA they can just come over as they usually do. Door is always open.
One more thing, no one has a god given right to fly any airplane, it''s what you negotiate.