American Eagle Pilots Express Outrage Over Concessionary Agreement

[capeman]

----------------
On 4/30/2003 1:49:39 PM gogogadget wrote:

Capeman,

Once the aircraft are on the AA certificate, then aa will crew the 70 seater fo and Ca.


----------------​

In a previous post you said no Eagle FO's would lose a seat. There seems to be some sort of change here????

Also in every post you mention the F-100. What is the relation? They are gone. Eagle is not picking up the flying. Why do you keep on insisting that Eagle is growing when we haven't? State the facts.

 

[Cleared Direct]

American Connection is where the growth will be. The 110% applies to the total amount from all supplemental commuter carriers not just Eagle. I got big news for you. Eagle is to expensive and already getting to big for AMR. AMR will expand at the AX carriers for all the obvious reasons:

1. Cheaper costs in all areas.

2. AMR wants to grow AX so not all their eggs are in one basket. Plus they can pit AX against Eagle.

3. There will be less displacement and training costs at AX than with the messy flowback at Eagle.

 

[G4G5]

With Eagle now having the ability to expand to 110% of mainline or 660 aircraft and unlimited 50 and below jets. Where do you think all that flying will be coming from?

 

[bluesideup]

----------------
Gogo you seem to think that since the F100 are leaving that Eagle is growing. You are sadly mistaken. Eagle has not seen any significant growth since October of 2001 when the first AA pilot was furloughed and the Scope clause limited the ASMs of Eagle. More to the point AE has been shrinking since that time because of the way ASM are counted. A jet flying for one hour eats up a lot more ASMs than a turboprop flying one hour because of the speed difference.

We are in the process of tranfering 14 of our emb-145s to Trans States, we have just announced the sale of all of our ATR 42''s, the Saabs are dissapering faster than we can re-train the crews, with another 60 pilots getting ready to head out the door all the while only getting 2-3 jets a month, after holding captain for 2 1/2 years and being with the company 6 years I am going to be forced back to first officer because of all this unbelivable "growth" you keep refering too. Once again please check your figures before spouting things such as growth at Eagle and if you do find that we are growing please tell me where so I don''t have to go back to a position I held almost 4 years ago.

My airline is broken can I have yours?

 

[capeman]

----------------
On 4/30/2003 3:31:54 PM G4G5 wrote:

With Eagle now having the ability to expand to 110% of mainline or 660 aircraft and unlimited 50 and below jets. Where do you think all that flying will be coming from?



----------------​

The unlimited 50 seats and below are included in your figure. Eagle can not expand above 110% of the narrow body fleet. The unlimited jets that you state for Eagle is actually limited to the narrow bodies of AA. No more than 110%. That places a LIMIT.

 

[Cleared Direct]

----------------
On 4/30/2003 1:49:39 PM gogogadget wrote:

Once the aircraft are on the AA certificate, then aa will crew the 70 seater fo and Ca.
----------------​

Gogogadget,

You appear to be educating yourself after every post you make. You initially said absolutely no FO positions. Your initial post has so much misinformation it is ridiculous.

----------------
Right now, Eagle is growing and AA is shrinking.
----------------​

Absolutely false again. Eagle has been under a strict ASM and scope cap and you know it. We continue to take delivery of RJs, but we are getting rid props twice as fast. Our total fleet size has actually shrunk this year. Our pilot ranks have shrunk also. Where is this growth? The facts are that AMR found away around the ASM and scope problem by forming American Connection and using the new AX code. In fact Eagle even lost 14 RJs to AX because we were going to bump up against our ASM restriction. This is not growth at Eagle but growth at AX.

----------------
As a snide plug, AA loses F100 and S80 flying (stl) to eagle and you are claiming we are taking your flying away via the CRJ?
----------------​

STL? STL has gone to AX not Eagle. Eagle is not claiming that APA is taking their flying. APA has illegally negotiated with AMR to take the CRJ-700s that are being contractually flown by Eagle pilots under a 4 party agreement. Eagle pilots agreed to let APA pilots flow back to Eagle's RJ Captain seats in exchange for 3 major things:

1. The right to fly 67 RJ's between 45 and 70 seats.

2. If chosen, the right to an AA seniority number.

3. If chosen, the right not to be displaced by any AA flowback pilot.

----------------
Anyone that has been in aviation long enough to get hired at eagle, Knew the benefits and pitfalls of working there.
----------------​

Anyone that has been in aviation for any period of time should know that airline hiring is cyclical. I guess not that many at AA thought of the pitfall of the possibility of Chapter 11. If you want one of those squat-paying jobs at Eagle, put in an application at Eagle. Just because an AA pilot is in the middle of a pitfall does not give them the right to any Eagle pilot's job.

 

[gogogadget]

Like I said before, APA is trying to protect the flying not the aircraft. Eagle is a part of AMR designed to compliment and feed AA and not visa versa and not to compete against eachother.

6 1/2 years at eagle is great and if you tell me that you honestly came to Eagle to make a career there not knowing the rules and laws in which they work then you need to have your head examined.
**************************
1. The right to fly 67 RJ''s between 45 and 70 seats.

2. If chosen, the right to an AA seniority number.

3. If chosen, the right not to be displaced by any AA flowback pilot.
************************************

It is obvious by this post alone that Some of the Eagle pilots wanted their cake and wanted to eat it too as long as there was a check valve in place to stop the horrid AA pilots from taking eagle jobs. When things are good it doesnt matter as long as I get mine and when things are bad.......................... screw em!

The only way anyone could say apa was keeping jobs from eagle would be in not allowing the rj''s to increase exponentially.

AMR does the fleet count and the adjustments. APA did not sell the ATR 42''s nor did they displace eagle pilots to the street. Eagle pilots were displaced if any because of fleet issues at eagle.

Capeman,
The text in which our conversation took place was mistaken. At the point in which the 700 is on the aa certificate all seats will be crewed by AA. If I didnt state that correctly before, I apologize. Just dont try to twist the words by usinge everything emphatically, I am not a politician. If we want to split hairs then we all loose.

As far as be-littiling eagle pilots, I just wont do it. Although I did not come through eagle or the military, I did pay my dues in other ways, so I am very familiar with the working conditions and steps people take to reach their goals. One thing is for sure, there isnt one person I know that wanted to make eagle a career no matter what aircraft they flew. (those since 1990) Everyone I talk to now and even most airline hiring consultants usually recommend a commuter job to those waiting for the economy to get better, those building time and those hoping for a flow through to any mainline carrier.

Typical airline progression.

Ratings-Instruct-commuter or corporate-Regional large jet operator and Airline.

 

[gogogadget]

Another thing,

My numbers came from the AMR 8k filling. I didnt make them up. Although eagle is replacing TP''s with jets, at the end of the year eagle will be Positive on aquisitions. If not the orders will catch up next year and the next year. IF you split hairs then, oh well, at any given moment either of our numbers could be wrong.

If AA could just drop the F100''s flat out then it probably would. How many lines has Eagle increased in the past 2 years and what about AA lines? That is where the real numbers lay?

 

[bluesideup]

Tell me again gogo how is stealing the captians seat at Eagle protecting the flying at AA?

 

[bluesideup]

----------------
The cake and eat it to thing what are you talking about? The discussion we are having it the one in the new TA not the old supplment W. If you were to honor the contract as signed we would not be having this conversation but APA unilaterally changed the agreement that was signed by all four parties involved and expected us to sit by while our jobs are stolen right out from beneath us. So, please once again get your facts straight this has nothing to do with the flowback and everything to do with the seat grab worked out between APA and AMR.

My airline is broke can I have yours?

 

[Duditz]

----------------
On 4/30/2003 1:49:39 PM gogogadget wrote:

Eagle was created to compliment and feed AA operations, not compete.


----------------​

I have been hearing this fiction for years - Eagle was "created" to feed the bottom line of the AMR corporation. Prior to RJs becoming available, the most efficient way to accomplish that goal WAS by feeding AA (after all not many pax would have wanted to go hub to hub in a SAAB). The RJ however, is able to make $$ in roles that MD80s et al are not able to. Since the costs per available seat mile (CASM) are higher in RJs, the RJ does not "win" a competition on a cost basis.

However, in the myopic view of the APA, it matters not that a route flown pre 9/11 by an MD80 is now not profitable. If it were to be flown profitably by a RJ, it would by viewed as "taking" flying from AA pilots. Better it not be flown at all - or by Comair.

----------------
On 4/30/2003 1:49:39 PM gogogadget wrote:


APA is not trying to take Eagle flying, they are trying to protect AMR flying and my gut feeling is this is a step to get that done.

---------------​

If they were trying "to protect AMR flying", the would not have negotiated a J4J provision in the TA relative to non-Eagle feeders. APA is not against the outsourcing of Eagle jobs as long as they get their cut.

 

[gogogadget]

Blueside,

You were the one thatbrought up the 3 points of honoring the contract, which also included (which also included the provision of "flow Back, which you failed to mention, conviently) Which also must be honered and is only to the extent AMR wnats it to be via exceptioins)

I am not trying to pit groups agains eachother. Aircraft are aircraft and pilots at both groups are good enough to fly any and all of them. Let me ask you this, Since APA asked for the crj700 and all 51 seat and above seats, Why is it our fault AMR agreed to it? Is it because AMR controls the aircraft and the placement, ultimately? Or is it because Eagle owns the CRJ700?

At the rate we are going, and maybe even via the "trend" at UAL, all Narrow body aircraft from AA might just wind up on the eagle list. They might just become the senior aircraft at Eagle? Would that suck for AA pilots?
Yes and No.

Yes because that might just signal the level at which AMR wants pilots to be paid and work. Pay and work rules comming down instead of up for the industry. (even more so than now)

No, because flying is flying no matter what aircraft you are in. If you look at it like a paycheck or as an ego booster to be captain then you need to move on and switch professions into one that will reward you for your longevity and experience no matter how many times you change.

I too think YOU also need to check your facts. the 8K filing is not fiction and is public information. The truth can hurt.

I am not a politician!

Duditz,

Oh Im sorry, I guess it is just a twist of words where Eagle compliments AA rather than AMR. I forgot that Before the Eagle on the rj, it says American. I also forgot that it was in an APA contract that Management wanted to form/create/purchase a commuter affiliate and got that exemption via the scope clause. Which states

"Scope Exception: Commuter Air Carriers
1) Commuter Air Carriers and Limitations: The company or and Affiliate may create, aquire, maintain and equity position in, enter into franchise type agreements with, and/or codeshare with a Commuter Air Carrier, and flying by any such Commuter Air Carrier shall not be subject to the limitations of section 1.c above (scope), so long as any such Commuter Air Carrier operates in accordance with the limitations set forth in this section 1 D

2) Purpose; Intent of the Parties.
A Primary Purpose. The primary purpose of a Commuter Air Carrier is either to provide passenger and/or cargo revune "feed" to company flights and/or to "enhance" the Company''s overall market presence.

Definitions: Company; The term "Company" shall refer to American Airlines, Inc. (Not AMR)"

They did not just create Eagle and say hey, lets operate 2 seperate airlines, AMR is AA when it comes to operating aircraft. Eagle is AA and you can ask any normal passenger when the buy a ticket, they dont go to the American Eagle website to purchase a ticket, they buy a ticket on American and may fly on an Eagle jet, and if we dont all step up to the plate, your jobs will be outsourced even more and so will ours via cheaper less effecient operators like Trans states and foreign carriers like Varig.

 

[Cleared Direct]

----------------
On 4/30/2003 10:06:22 PM gogogadget wrote:

**************************
1. The right to fly 67 RJ's between 45 and 70 seats.

2. If chosen, the right to an AA seniority number.

3. If chosen, the right not to be displaced by any AA flowback pilot.
************************************

It is obvious by this post alone that Some of the Eagle pilots wanted their cake and wanted to eat it too as long as there was a check valve in place to stop the horrid AA pilots from taking eagle jobs. When things are good it doesnt matter as long as I get mine and when things are bad.......................... screw em!

----------------​

It is called Supplement W/ Letter 3, you might want to read it sometime. It is in your green book, and APA negotiated it and signed it along with AA, AE, and Eagle ALPA. Furloughed AA pilots have every right to exercise their displacement rights to eligible CJ Captain positions at Eagle. No one at Eagle is denying those contractual rights of all furloughed AA pilots.

What APA and AMR do not have a right to is the changing of a binding 4 party agreement without the approval of all 4 parties involved. The problem is that AMR not Eagle pilots asked for a check valve because they cannot afford all the training cost associated with the flowback. In addition contractually no Eagle pilot on the property can be furloughed as the result of the AA flowback process. This is clearly a problem for AMR. They asked for relief from the contractual obligation of Supplement W, and APA gave it to them. Then APA and AMR completely changed the whole Supplement W/ Letter 3 agreement without getting the agreement of Eagle ALPA.

You continue to not actually address what is in question by Eagle pilots. How can APA and AMR come to agreement to change Supplement W/ Letter 3 without the agreement of all 4 parties?

 

[Cleared Direct]

----------------
On 4/30/2003 10:13:33 PM gogogadget wrote:

Another thing,

My numbers came from the AMR 8k filling. I didnt make them up. Although eagle is replacing TP''s with jets, at the end of the year eagle will be Positive on aquisitions. If not the orders will catch up next year and the next year. IF you split hairs then, oh well, at any given moment either of our numbers could be wrong.
----------------​

What you don''t understand is that AMR still owns the aircraft that are beeing flown at American Connection. They also still own the planes that are not being flown at all but are up for sale. You cannot dispute that American Eagle Airlines, Inc. has decreased the number of aircraft they operate and the number of pilots in 2003. You aparently believe the rumors that you here about Eagle over at AA and it shows. You post total BS gogogadget.

 

[jetdryvr]

Plain and simple if APA wants guys to flow backwards outside of the original agreement then they belong at the bottom of our list flying what there senority will hold. Oh wait there egos barely fit in the door much less the right seat paired with someone who has not only been here longer but more qualified to fly as a Captain.