AE/Envoy Pilots Reject AIP

[RJcasualty]

Who pays for the feed, or who jumpstarts the supply of pilots?

It may just be a matter of time before you see one of the airlines approach the FAA to allow an exception for an ab-initio program to train their own pilots, and stop worrying about getting them from the regionals.

For those unfamiliar with ab initio, new hires with little to no pilot experience get a company backed loan for their pilot training, and the company agrees to forgive the loans over time as long as the pilot stays employed, or become liable for the outstanding balance if they choose to leave. It's a fair trade for the time and cash outlay involved with getting up to 1,500 hours. The airlines benefit by being able to train the pilots in their own procedures from Day 1, and there's less "we did it this way" baggage brought into the cockpit.

It's a similar approach to how some areas of the country are dealing with being unable to recruit nurses and other medical technicians who are licensed. A half dozen or so airlines have used this model successfully, and it seems to have worked well for virtually all of our armed services...

That's an interesting tactic--- to leapfrog over a cadre of experienced regional pilots with mainline career expectations so as to recruit and graduate a bunch of indentured, compliant servants free of agitational inclinations. I didn't know there was any FAA rule on the subject. BTW, AE has signed agreements with various schools but that hasn't solved the problem at hand. DAL currently requires a 4 year degree. Your "technicians" might fall short.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I've got to get to the store. I don't think I have enough popcorn to last through this. Union members standing together for the good of all. Who'd a thunk? This is getting to be fun!

Now, say the NLRB does the right thing (I know. I know. Farfetched in the extreme. As the old song says, "I can dream, can't I?), and releases the AE pilots into self-help. Assuming the company finagles a PEB to order them back to work. What happens then? What is the recourse if the pilots choose to not come back to work. It's not like the company can fire them all, and a supply of trained, qualified pilots will appear on the horizon ready to go to work for an airline whose owner has already said will be liquidated. And, judging from the interview with the Republic CEO, no one is anxious to pick up the slack.

If they do go back to work, how long does a PEB last?

 
(Point of order:  The NLRB has nothing to do with unions representing airline employees.  It's the NMB under the authority of the Raliway Labor Act.)

 

[Bob Owens]

I recall a few years back when that analyst Mann was saying that RJs were the future, that airlines were going for smaller planes and more frequent flights. I saw it differently, smaller planes burn more fuel per passenger, limited cargo, more landing fees, more congestion in the air and most of all, more pilots and mechanics per passenger. It took a lot longer for the shortage to appear, didbt expect it to get as bad as it has.
 
It costs around $60k for an A&P and at least double that for to get the certs to become a Commercial transport pilot. Working for minimum wage for another 10 years then at least another 12 to 15 before you get that heavy turbine left seat with the six figure salary simply isn't worth the debt and the many years hardly making anything, same goes for mechanics, working 30 years of nights, weekends and Holidays at substandard wages on top of paying off student loans and tools just isn't too appealing. Flight benefits aren't that much of a draw when it costs less than a weeks wages to pretty much get anywhere in the country, throw in the fact that when you figure in that at AA you only get one week and no holidays off you are already working three extra weeks a year that most people have off. So where a full fare passenger may have to fork over a weeks pay to go on vacation we are working an extra three weeks for standby.
 
Of the very few young people you do see coming into maintenance none of them are the children of airline workers, most are minorities who come from poor economic circumstances and were conned by recruiters into thinking this was a good shot at a better life. Yea, working five days a week every week except for the one week a year you get for vacation will draw a lot of people.

 

[Bob Owens]

Doesn't suprise me that EO would be championing indentured servitude, but he just doesn't get it. Basically they already had that, except they did it with the Regionals. They aren't showing up any more. They aren't showing up at the regionals because the end game, a job at a major, simply isn't that appealing anymore. Same thing is happening to the Regionals and the MROs with mechanics. At one time these were good jobs, always had its trade offs, but that's all thats left now. The know it all frat boys got their way, now they don't know what to do. The only thing saving them is the old guys wont leave, they cant. Eventually they will have to but they are definately staying longer than they used to, in fact the oldest guy started with AA in 1942. That's right 72 years on the job! He said it was never this bad before, he would leave but he doesn't think anyone else would hire him!

 

[Crash Pad DCA]

According to this analyst, the industry is now scratching its head as to who pays for the feed. What a silly question. IMHO, if the industry is fine with eliminating discounts, ratcheting up nickel and dime fees and overhauling traditional frequent flyer programs, why can't they pass along a cost that will attract the very people needed to make it all possible?  This isn't croquet science, folks.    http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-28/with-pilot-shortage-regional-airlines-search-for-someone-to-pay-rising-costs

 

Could sell this nice $12M Dallas house and pay for the feed...
http://www.candysdirt.com/2014/02/28/aa-merger-magic-for-our-real-estate-market-us-air-prez-buys-sharif-munir-mansion-on-strait-lane/

Or new pilots could promise to cut the lawn on their off days in exchange for a pilot school tuition grant while they work for AA, but if they leave AA then they have to work full time in the kitchen...for life....
 
$64M in stock option sales?....Seems like that could be applied to the feed, too...

 

[nycbusdriver]

I recall a few years back when that analyst Mann was saying that RJs were the future, that airlines were going for smaller planes and more frequent flights. I saw it differently, smaller planes burn more fuel per passenger, limited cargo, more landing fees, more congestion in the air and most of all, more pilots and mechanics per passenger. It took a lot longer for the shortage to appear, didbt expect it to get as bad as it has.
 
It costs around $60k for an A&P and at least double that for to get the certs to become a Commercial transport pilot. Working for minimum wage for another 10 years then at least another 12 to 15 before you get that heavy turbine left seat with the six figure salary simply isn't worth the debt and the many years hardly making anything, same goes for mechanics, working 30 years of nights, weekends and Holidays at substandard wages on top of paying off student loans and tools just isn't too appealing. Flight benefits aren't that much of a draw when it costs less than a weeks wages to pretty much get anywhere in the country, throw in the fact that when you figure in that at AA you only get one week and no holidays off you are already working three extra weeks a year that most people have off. So where a full fare passenger may have to fork over a weeks pay to go on vacation we are working an extra three weeks for standby.
 
Of the very few young people you do see coming into maintenance none of them are the children of airline workers, most are minorities who come from poor economic circumstances and were conned by recruiters into thinking this was a good shot at a better life. Yea, working five days a week every week except for the one week a year you get for vacation will draw a lot of people.

 
You make very good points, and I agree wholeheartedly.
 
But I think that those who are "conned" into getting an A&P license, then work work dirt wages, are not necessarily being "conned" at all.  Experienced aircraft mechanics can, and often do, take that highly skilled work experience and find much better jobs outside of aviation.  I recall a few US mechanics at LGA who snatched up offers from GE (I think) working on big ground based turbine generators.  They started at better pay and benefits than US was giving them after more than a decade of service.  Heck, even going to work for a BMW dealer can be more lucrative, and many A&Ps do things like that.  (When was the last time you saw a BMW tech working overnight shifts and outside in the winter cold?)
 
I think the A&P training and that federal license is a handy thing to have on a resume when one is hunting a "real" job, since you have already proven your competence to the federal government.
 
And all of this leads to aircraft mechanic shortages.  Maybe the airlines will learn their lesson, or come to a screeching halt in the next few years when there is no one to fix or fly their machines.

 

[mwa]

ab initio is not a threat at all. That is the problem - candidates take all the risk and financial burdens and the marketplace has spoken that it is not a viable option for the potential reward. If the industry wants to pick up the tab so be it but training contracts have proven difficult to enforce in court. Start those checks coming.

 

[WorldTraveler]

You make very good points, and I agree wholeheartedly.
 
But I think that those who are "conned" into getting an A&P license, then work work dirt wages, are not necessarily being "conned" at all.  Experienced aircraft mechanics can, and often do, take that highly skilled work experience and find much better jobs outside of aviation.  I recall a few US mechanics at LGA who snatched up offers from GE (I think) working on big ground based turbine generators.  They started at better pay and benefits than US was giving them after more than a decade of service.  Heck, even going to work for a BMW dealer can be more lucrative, and many A&Ps do things like that.  (When was the last time you saw a BMW tech working overnight shifts and outside in the winter cold?)
 
I think the A&P training and that federal license is a handy thing to have on a resume when one is hunting a "real" job, since you have already proven your competence to the federal government.
 
And all of this leads to aircraft mechanic shortages.  Maybe the airlines will learn their lesson, or come to a screeching halt in the next few years when there is no one to fix or fly their machines.

aircraft A&Ps will see a resurgence... there will be a certain amount of mechanics needed at every airline despite the fact that the industry as a whole industry as a whole is trying to outsource on average half or more of its maintenance spend. There will always be airlines that are better than average in terms of mechanic employment and pay.... that is the nature of averages.

Unlike pilots, the mechanic skillset is much more transferable.

keep in mind also that the whole RJ boom was a temporary fix for carriers to provide a full network in the midst of a very fragmented industry. With consolidation, there is far less need for as many hubs and for flights from dozens of hubs to the same city. The RJ boom is ending because of high fuel prices and the pilot labor shortage but consolidation would have killed it anyway.

RJs will serve the relatively small number of markets that will never support even 2-3 mainline flights per day domestically which is pretty much about the minimum to serve a city.

 

[jimntx]

may just be a matter of time before you see one of the airlines approach the FAA to allow an exception for an ab-initio program to train their own pilots, and stop worrying about getting them from the regionals.

E, assuming that these ab initio pilot candidates are not total morons, how many of them do you think will be willing to tie themselves to massive debt and (to use Bob Owens term) indentured servitude to an airline that the owner of that airline has already stated publicly that they intend to eliminate said airline at the first opportunity?

And, what happens to them and that debt if their indenture period is not yet complete when the curtain is drawn on Envoy? Do they have to work as contract rampers at an out-station until the debt is paid? I don't see AAL as a benevolent institution that will forgive the debt just because they pulled the rug out from underneath these people.

 

[RJcasualty]

aircraft A&Ps will see a resurgence... there will be a certain amount of mechanics needed at every airline despite the fact that the industry as a whole industry as a whole is trying to outsource on average half or more of its maintenance spend. There will always be airlines that are better than average in terms of mechanic employment and pay.... that is the nature of averages.

Unlike pilots, the mechanic skillset is much more transferable.

keep in mind also that the whole RJ boom was a temporary fix for carriers to provide a full network in the midst of a very fragmented industry. With consolidation, there is far less need for as many hubs and for flights from dozens of hubs to the same city. The RJ boom is ending because of high fuel prices and the pilot labor shortage but consolidation would have killed it anyway.

RJs will serve the relatively small number of markets that will never support even 2-3 mainline flights per day domestically which is pretty much about the minimum to serve a city.

Interesting. Consolidation wont require as many hubs?  Tell that to the AA DP facilitators. I guess that hot potato was discussed ad nauseum on another thread. The RJ boom is ending?  Tell that to all the bond holders and tax payers who underwrote the nation-wide RJ facility infrastructure at the behest of the industry. How do you propose to keep a regional airport alive with your minimums?  This is looney.

 

[RJcasualty]

E, assuming that these ab initio pilot candidates are not total morons, how many of them do you think will be willing to tie themselves to massive debt and (to use Bob Owens term) indentured servitude to an airline that the owner of that airline has already stated publicly that they intend to eliminate said airline at the first opportunity?

And, what happens to them and that debt if their indenture period is not yet complete when the curtain is drawn on Envoy? Do they have to work as contract rampers at an out-station until the debt is paid? I don't see AAL as a benevolent institution that will forgive the debt just because they pulled the rug out from underneath these people.

Spot on, Jim. You couldn't have framed this insanity any better. Latest has ALPA national corralling AE MEC to Washington (or Moscow?) next week in a not-so-subtle, underhanded ploy to subvert the will of AE pilots by way of meaningless sweeteners. Will we see a company orchestrated campaign to tug at heart strings via wives pushing baby carriages demanding a membership vote? 

 

[eolesen]

Doesn't suprise me that EO would be championing indentured servitude, but he just doesn't get it.

Indentured servitude or an employer subsidized education and certification?

It's not much different than the military paying to train a pilot and demanding 8 years of their life at far-below market rates.

Wasn't it your wife who had part of her nursing degree reimbursed by her employer? Or was that someone else here?

Either way, you have to pay for your education one way or another - seems to me student loans and substandard wages seems to be a worse choice than signing a multi-year employment contract.

If the wage differential for ab initio is lower than what you'd pay in student loans and tuition/airtime, it might not be nearly as bad as you make it out to be. It certainly works well for Lufthansa.

 

[eolesen]

E, assuming that these ab initio pilot candidates are not total morons, how many of them do you think will be willing to tie themselves to massive debt and (to use Bob Owens term) indentured servitude to an airline that the owner of that airline has already stated publicly that they intend to eliminate said airline at the first opportunity?And, what happens to them and that debt if their indenture period is not yet complete when the curtain is drawn on Envoy? Do they have to work as contract rampers at an out-station until the debt is paid? I don't see AAL as a benevolent institution that will forgive the debt just because they pulled the rug out from underneath these people.

I never suggested ab initio for Envoy. I'm saying that it may be a more reliable stream for airlines like AA, DL and UA in light of the waves of retirements coming. The same concept has been discussed for mechanics as well, and with far less resistance...

The way some paid-training contracts under ab initio have worked in the past is that a voluntary severance event triggers the payments. Layoff wouldn't trigger repayment, unless the employee got hired elsewhere and resigned their recall rights. Even there, I'm sure APA could negotiate a safe haven clause for its members....

 

[Topcat187]

Im pretty sure they are ALPA at Eagle/Envoy. I believe the reason they get by with paying pilots so little is simply because its a way to accumulate hours that they were previously paying to accumulate. The fact that its a gate way to the majors doesnt help either. It is amazing that they make less than the baggage handlers do, but this has been going on for years.

 

[Hope777]

Im pretty sure they are ALPA at Eagle/Envoy. I believe the reason they get by with paying pilots so little is simply because its a way to accumulate hours that they were previously paying to accumulate. The fact that its a gate way to the majors doesnt help either. It is amazing that they make less than the baggage handlers do, but this has been going on for years.

Not so sure they make less than a FSA ?