American Eagle Pilots Express Outrage Over Concessionary Agreement

[bluesideup]

Eagle will take a hit when it comes to the Crj700, you have a right to be upset, you also have the right to be upset at the fact that Eagle exists soley to support AA operations (section 1D) and that at this point in the game everything at AMR revolves around AA. And as has been proven wwith TWA and Reno, APA is usually handed a loaded deck and told to play. I am not tryng to be vicious, just honest.

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Funny how our right to exist is only because it is in your contract. Now I have a question for you. What do you think your right to exist is based on? Is it to provided you with the jobs you are taking away or the current job you have? I don''t think so. Your right to exsist is based soley on making AMR money. But this would mean that AMR has the ablility to stick any aircraft of any size in any market that they wanted to. But because you have a contract with AMR they cannot do this. Much like we have a contract with AMR but once again you think our contract is with APA and that APA is the only one that our contract is with. WRONG.
We are here to serve AMR by providing a feed for AA but along the way we grew out of section 1D and have become a fairly competent money making airline ourselves and just because you like to quote an out moded part of your contract every time we try and defend our rights then maybe we should just go to AMR and negotiate our contract to allow you to serve us much like they have done with the reverse codeshare with AX.

My airline is brocken can I have yours?

 

[capeman]

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On 5/3/2003 10:32:54 PM gogogadget wrote:

Viper2,

It is not entirely APA's fault. I say this because many Eagle pilots only see what is on the surface and that being the loss of 25-50 CRJ700 and associated pay. Many are looking at the "Potential for upgrade in the Crj 700" while also failing to realize the "potential for ERJ increase" also. The view is somewhat myopic.

Let me ask anyone this one question; What is a "Good" reason APA wants 51 seats and above? Without getting into adjectives like greed and egos, think about it? Stepping back and looking at it from the observers seat, Industry reports are already specultaing and counting on the rise in 70 seaters and above. If that is true and AA does start ramping up on these things, then that means recall of furloughees sooner and also the resumption of flow through. And while the Flow through wasnt the prettiest, would someone like to cont the eagle pilots that resigned to go to AA and UAL and DAL and SWA? How many want to leave Eagle now to do the same at jetblue and airtran and others?


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Ok, Been at work for the last few days. Someone has to do it.

1. The 25-50 CRJ's are just the tip of the iceberg. Sure many will not be captains on it, but it does promote growth, advancement, and more money. The way things are going these days who is to say 50 will be the limit?

2. I see your point if AA operated the 70 seater that it will bring back more pilots. As a stock holder I feel I just do not want this if it makes APA happy and provides a few more jobs. I want it to be profiable for AMR so I can see a return on my investment instead of going down the toilet.

3. Eagle has 379 Capt. seats (give or take a few) that are available for flowbacks according to letter 3. Even though I am 1 of these capt. I think that this should be all that is available. When AA was hiring 100 a month, did they increase the number of flow throughs? Why should we increase the flow back numbers? By this I mean the future expansion of Eagle that APA desires. Letter 3 was the agreement, live with it. As for JetBlue, I have sent in the app online a while ago. Quality of life and respect is all that I need.

 

[LD max]

"If that is true and AA does start ramping up on these things, then that means recall of furloughees sooner and also the resumption of flow through. And while the Flow through wasnt the prettiest, would someone like to cont the eagle pilots that resigned to go to AA and UAL and DAL and SWA? How many want to leave Eagle now to do the same at jetblue and airtran and others?"

Well. I realize that you are trying to be optimistic about the prospect of getting folks back on line to AA and returning to the pre 9/11 days. Realisitically, however, there will be about 3700 pilots on furlough after the 2500 more go out. That''s a heck of a long time for Eagle to wait until the "recall of furloughees" is complete and the flow through resumes. Especially when only 20 AA pilots a month will be allowed to escape the salt mines and return to AA when things do pick up one day. The flow through is up for re-negotiation in 2007. I highly doubt it will be renewed even if 3700 pilots somehow get back on line and hiring resumes within the next 4 years.
Long before 9/11, with the exception of the guys that had been at Eagle a decade or more, most folks had totally erased the idea of going to AA. It just wasn''t going to happen, considering the trend. I think most Eagle FO''s, including myself, were concentrating heavily on getting PIC time and going somewhere else where "American Eagle" on an application did not mean being put in the third stack of apps collecting dust in recruitment. I don''t know where all the pilots were going from Eagle before 9/11, but we were hiring about 700 a year and "barely" keeping up with attrition. I do know several that left to go to other regionals.
All Eagle pilots want is a fair shake and to be able to make a livable wage. For the captains that means flying the CRJ. Since we have no retirement, that''s the jet which pays the most so folks could put back some money for retirement. For the FO''s, that means upgrading to Captain, if for however briefly, to get that PIC turbine and to leave AMR. Southwest and Jetblue are still hiring. Most FO''s would luv to get that 1000 PIC and fly for them. I think most FO''s at Eagle, having made AA probationary pay rates (about 25K/year) for up to 7 years now, would go just about anywhere that pays enough to support a family, much less themselves.
Sure I am lucky to have a job considering the times. I am thankful for that. However, if this TA hashes out with the "doom and gloom" that we are all predicting, what hope does that give Eagle pilots? It goes totally against the "American" Dream. Work very hard...and someone else will reap the benefits of your efforts?? There will be a mass exodus of Eagle FO''s IF this all comes about. Why fly for $25K/year and watch your hopes diminish while the guy next to you, who has less time at AMR, becomes captain? We would be totally insane to stay and "wait out" the good times under those conditions.

 

[Winglet]

From the perspective now, I don''t see ANYTHING positive coming out of this T/A for either AA or AE pilots. For management, LOTS, especially after the economy picks up and they''ve got 7-8 years of C scale wages. And we haven''t even talked about the retirements that they''re coming after in a couple months with another threat of BK.

 

[mwa]

BTW - Cleared Direct has talked to the MEC (me) and I can tell you he has an accurate grasp of the facts and the proposed implementation. THX try again APA.

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/2/2003 6:51:16 PM gogogadget wrote:

No matter how you look at it, right now, even with our reduced pay and increased work rules, it is still a better QOL than Eagle right now, Yes?
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GoGogadget,

Why don't you ask that same question to the 2300 AA pilots who are about to be furloughed. That by the way is exactly where Eagle pilots would be if they were stapled to the bottom of APA's list like they had proposed. If the quality of life is so great even at the bottom of AA, then why did APA try so hard to secure more jobs for the junior AA pilots at Eagle outside of the Supplement W/Letter 3 agreement?

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DAL will definately be looking at the future placement of their RJ's and where would you rather fly the larger aircraft, Comair or DAL?
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I would rather fly it at Comair if I already have 15 years seniority there. Almost all pilots would rather fly at main line than at a so-called regional carrier, but that is simply not the choice that they are faced with today. Main line is not hiring today. Main line pilot's unions want to staple them to the bottom of their lists with no protection from furlough. Both sides will have to sacrifice to get one list or it won't happen and we both lose. Management will be the only true winner.

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The bar at AA is lowered, it can be recovered over time and we will work to do that, along with the outsourcing issue and, at least in my book, to get the eagle pilots on the AA list with a retirement and more of a variety of flying and equipment.
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If APA's negotiations with AMR without the input from Eagle ALPA is your way of getting Eagle pilots on AA's list, than you will fail. You will help unify the Eagle pilots in an effort to protect not only what they have left, but to also compete for all flying done at AMR. There is still a UNITY campaign at AMR; it is the UNITY of Eagle pilots against the Allied Pinheads Association.

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 5/3/2003 10:56:36 PM gogogadget wrote:

Cleared direct,

You and this myopic view of "there is nothing in this TA that "SAYS" eagle will expand is getting old. There is also nothing in this TA that says AA is guaranteed the CRJ700, it all has to pass muster first!

If you honestly believe that Eagle will just sit back and replace TP 1 for 1 and call it quits, then you are smoking! Especially after all the rif-raf with the sju eagle sale and Transtates! You assume the CRJ700 is going away but you do not assume eagle growing? What is wrong with this picture?
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Gogogadget,

If there is one thing that Eagle pilots have learned with AMR, it is to definitely not assume anything with the company and beware of contract language. Some how my view is labeled as myopic when I question the vague contractual language that your union has agreed to with AA. How much more arrogant can you get.

If APA wants Eagle ALPA to concede part of their contractual rights to anything, then there must be clear binding contractual language that will give us something in return. APA does not negotiate for Eagle ALPA pilots. What part of that do you not understand?

I will ask the question yet again. How can AA and APA change a 4 party agreement without the agreement of all 4 parties?

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The only thing that is a definate in all of this that Eagle now "HAS" the ability to increase and the orders "Are" in place to make that happen. AA and AMR have a year to negotiate the transfer of the CRJ to the AA certificate at which point if unable to come to an agreement which is cost neutral and if that fails AA has the option to keep the crj at eagle and then only the captain seats will be filled via sup w.

Other than that everything else is a guess!
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Well now that APA has given up tons of concessions for their own pilots and apparently attempted to give up some of Eagle pilot's contractual rights, what did they negotiate in return? Just a big guess?

There are more things that are definite than you mention. Fact, under the old binding Supplement W after the master shuffle there would be only approximately 504 CJ Captain positions available to flowback AA pilots if they all elect to flow back. Fact, now with the new and improved illegal TA every furloughed pilot from AA is eligible to fill a CJ Captain position at Eagle. That includes all the pilots who are currently furloughed (including ex TWA pilots) and all future pilot furloughs. The only guess here is how many pilots will AA eventually furlough? If you cannot see that APA and AA have re-negotiated Supplement W, you are the one with the myopic view.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/4/2003 8:55:33 PM mwa wrote:

BTW - Cleared Direct has talked to the MEC (me) and I can tell you he has an accurate grasp of the facts and the proposed implementation. THX try again APA.

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So is the merger off?

 

[gogogadget]

Cleared Direct,

First, my statement on myopic was based on your continued response that Eagle is not growing. It seems that you can only twist things to improve your point of view.

I am not defending the apa position that all 70 seaters should be at AA. I have an Idea, why not keep the current 70 seaters at Eagle and AA take all jets that are not on the property yet and just let Eagle only fly jets 50 seats and smaller, sound good? Or would it be better for eagle to Blindly grow into the major international airline that it is or will be some day? (That would be arrogant my friend) By the way, eagle currently operates 10 CRJ700''s and will take delivery of 8 more in 2003.

My position is simple, Regardless of this TA and how you feel about it. Eagle is just as much an incentive for AMR to outsource and degrade the airline profession as is a BK induced concessionary TA approved by APA. Having Eagle increase in capacity beyond the commuter role it plays is the same as hiring sweatshop workers in Honduras. The work rules are less, the pay is cheaper and the turnover is high! I am sure you can remember the pay for training fiasco that was here in the 90''s? Many foreign pilots came to the US, subsidized by their country and paid people to sit right seat to build time. Same thing at Comair and others, until the industry just would not support the scheme for all the hiring that was going on. (If you let them have it, they will run you and the profession through the ringer all the while destroying lives and careers)

I am not knocking eagle pilots at all, I am just looking at the big picture that management sees when they do strategic planning for the future. If you allow Eagle to fly the 70 seater, then the 90 seater comes then the 110 seater comes then the 134 seater comes and guess what? Everyone that flies them will be paid just like Eagle and work 90 hours plus just like eagle and have no retirement just like eagle, and many of these same pilots bitc!!!!ing about 1 aircraft that they are barely flying just to build time durring the down time and move on to SWA and JBLU and UPS and FEDEX will have left what legacy? For 90% of pilots, Commuter flying is and always has been a way to build time, pay your dues and move on to better flying. The difference between APA lowering the pay rates is that of the things easier to re-obtain pay would be easier than retirement, and Pay at the major is expected to be higher than pay at the commuter, not visa versa. Delta is still holding the bar up for now.

Eagle outsourcing has to be stopped or managed, and it has to start somewhere. Was the way it was done in this TA the right way? I do not know, nor do I know the details of how and why it happened like this. If you think Eagle should keep growing exponentially and that 10 aircraft (On property) or even 50 aircraft is enough for control the outsourcing, then keep right on preaching. Transtates outsourcing is just the begining, wait until they break eagle up into pieces because the costs of operating all those jets is simply too high collectively, yet seperately they do just fine. APA has just cut out the outsourcing of 51 seats and greater, and as long as aircraft are on the aa list they cant be given to transStates or others. Things will stagnate in the promotion area at Eagle and the same at AA. Eagle will become all jet and those that are not hired at eagle have only look forward to flying an RJ. Similar to only flying an Airbus at Jetblue or 737 at SWA.

I have just as much respect for eagle pilots as I do the guys I fly with every trip! And that is not arrogance, my friend, It is FACT! And as a fun poke..........Signing off as a EMB Captain is arrogant, sounds like you have issues or might be compensating for something!!! (Does that make you some sort of authority)

Gogogadget,
Cessna 152 Captain.........better yet, SpaceShuttle Captain......
Yeah, that''s it.............

 

[heavy767]

You will never hear that experiance argument from me. We are all the same. I did my time in the sa-227 sf-340 and the crj.That was the good stuff. The person that thinks there is a difference between civilian and military trained is just showing you they haven''t been around long enough, no sense in arguing with them just nod and give them a smile knowing that someday they will realize. My man cleared direct seems unhappy, can''t blame him really. I wish we would channel our energy to get together as one airline. I will have more on that next week when I get back from the APA board meeting. There is a way out of this, we just gotta figure it out.

 

[heavy767]

As for holding down the bar, I was just faxed a copy of the 80/80/80 thing that has re-risen. Pretty funny, if it wasn''t so sad. The only obstacle now is that pesky section one in the green book.

 

[bluesideup]

Eagle outsourcing has to be stopped or managed, and it has to start somewhere.
Gogogadget,
Cessna 152 Captain.........better yet, SpaceShuttle Captain......
Yeah, that's it.............

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Gogo for someone that touts this as a measure of stopping the growth of the regional scurge your TA does the exact oppisite. If you read it the TA allows Eagle or AX or whoever else they decide to partner with next to grow to 110% of mainline size. Doesn't sound like much of an impediment. As a matter of fact most the stuff you have been saying doesn't really jibe. From the beginning of this tread you have had your facts wrong and now you talk non-sense about something that has nothing to do with why the Eagle pilots are outraged.

With all this discussion you have yet to explain the simple question that is pissing off Eagle.

So here is: How do you believe that you now have the right to come back to Eagle outside of the negotiated section 3/letter W without the consent of the four parties involved?

My airline is broken can I have yours?

 

[gogogadget]

Blueside,

Since my facts have been all wrong and since I am a just totally out of it, and since I have specifically said that I understand why the Eagle pilots are upset and that I do not defend what transpiried in this TA, because I do not know the facts and details of what went on, then what needs to be done?

Since you are the knowledgable one, lets see you come up sith some answers, besides the common, easy to use whine. Can you answer that same question? Do you know what went on in the back rooms these past few weeks, including what went on with Eagle MEC? I think Eagle has just as much right to Whine as do the AA pilots when the very intent of Sup W was to NOT have Eagle used as a Tool to be leveraged when AA shrinks. Heck, AA offered 51 seats to AA before UAL got their pay raise. Whose aircraft were they then to offer?

I do not have all the answers, nor do I attempt to even make believe that I do. But, It is when people like you that perpetuate divisiveness and seek instant gratification need to step back and take a good look at the big picture. Ask that so some of your other former eagle pilots that either flowed through, are on the list to flow through or even resigned Eagle to accept a job at AA. Who had the right to quit and jump ahead of the flow throughs?

While you waste your time trying to upgrade on the CRJ700 and keep the aircraft at Eagle for better pay, I will be fighting AMR to quit outsourcing ANY flying that is not done by pilots on the AA list, wether it be Eagle, Transtates, Iberia or Varig. I hope to see you on our list, working with us and not against us.

My airline is broken can I have yours?
My lifelong goal has been to work for Eagle...............Get real!

 

[bluesideup]

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On 5/8/2003 235 PM gogogadget wrote:

Blueside,

Since my facts have been all wrong and since I am a just totally out of it, and since I have specifically said that I understand why the Eagle pilots are upset and that I do not defend what transpiried in this TA, because I do not know the facts and details of what went on, then what needs to be done?

Since you are the knowledgable one, lets see you come up sith some answers, besides the common, easy to use whine. Can you answer that same question? Do you know what went on in the back rooms these past few weeks, including what went on with Eagle MEC? I think Eagle has just as much right to Whine as do the AA pilots when the very intent of Sup W was to NOT have Eagle used as a Tool to be leveraged when AA shrinks. Heck, AA offered 51 seats to AA before UAL got their pay raise. Whose aircraft were they then to offer?

I do not have all the answers, nor do I attempt to even make believe that I do. But, It is when people like you that perpetuate divisiveness and seek instant gratification need to step back and take a good look at the big picture. Ask that so some of your other former eagle pilots that either flowed through, are on the list to flow through or even resigned Eagle to accept a job at AA. Who had the right to quit and jump ahead of the flow throughs?

While you waste your time trying to upgrade on the CRJ700 and keep the aircraft at Eagle for better pay, I will be fighting AMR to quit outsourcing ANY flying that is not done by pilots on the AA list, wether it be Eagle, Transtates, Iberia or Varig. I hope to see you on our list, working with us and not against us.

My airline is broken can I have yours?
My lifelong goal has been to work for Eagle...............Get real!

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Gogo once again you talk about working together. Is this just another ploy like the last time APA wanted to work with us? What else could you possibly do to Eagle now that APA has stolen the left seat from our jet. Maybe just furlough the entire eagle seniority list so that AA pilots can have a job that does not belong to them.

Once again you talk about outsourcing but give no answer to how this TA stops it. From where I am sitting it looks like APA has given the green light for all the commuter carrier to grow like wildfire.

Instant gratification...Hmmm that sounds to me like stealing something that doesn''t belong to them just because they think they can. So, please don''t lecture me on "instant gratification" or the people that have numbers/have flown through. They came there and got there numbers under an agreement bargained by all companies involed can you say the same about the people coming back as Eagle captains?

Now this big picture you keep talking about I have never been privy to it. I guess I just don''t have the Harvard education that the glourious leaders of this fine company have but from what my low brow thinking tells me is that this TA is a pile of sh1t. I cannot see how it justifies any of your argument.

It doesn''t eliminate the outsourcing it just expands it i.e. 110% growth to mainline narrowbody fleet, it doesn''t raise any kind of bar it just lowers it i.e. "cost nuetral transfer" of the CRJ''s and agreeing to fly them for regional wages, it doesn''t bring the pilot groups together to battle AMR it just further seperates them i.e. APA coming out with a side letter to AMR even before consessions were asked for by AMR for stealing the left seats of Eagle aircraft and the list goes on.

To respond to your question whose a/c were they when AMR offered. They were still up in the air. Eagle had not yet recieved any CRJs at that point and the only claim we had on them was we had to negotiate a pay scale for them. But as I remember the greed from the APA shot down the proposal of a 20% raise and the CRJ so the babies could have what United has. Now we have more of a claim on the CRJ. We have over 100 of our pilots flying in it, we have facilities in our school house and sim bays for training on it, we have check airmen, maintanece, hangers, programs and much more. So you were saying what rights you had to it again...

My lifelong goal is not to work for Eagle but how very arrogent of you to believe that everyone at Eagle wants to go somewhere else. Some can''t, some don''t want to, some like it. So, you can justify your actions of taking our jobs just because it was never a real job to begin with it was only a stepping stone and that by APA coming and taking our captain seats that it will help us in the long run. GET REAL!!!!!!!!!

Oh, by the way I won''t ever be on your list I have a job lined up so as soon as they start about 6 more classed I will be out of this dump so settle into your life of flying the CRJ at regional wages and helping perpetuate the domestic flying of the RJ.

Yes your airline is broken and I will fight tooth and nail to not let you have mine.

 

[Duditz]

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On 5/7/2003 9:15:14 PM gogogadget wrote:

My position is simple....
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Why, yes it is.