American Eagle Pilots Express Outrage Over Concessionary Agreement

[capeman]

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On 4/29/2003 12:41:34 PM eolesen wrote:

Uh, how many Eagle pilots are out on furlough vs. AA pilots are out on furlough? Do the math.

Eagle might have lost some growth opportunities, but they haven't been taking steps backward from what I can tell.

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At this moment they are pretty close % wise. Eagle has around 2400 pilots with 300+ on the street with 60 more to go in June. AA had 14000 on the list with what about 1053 on the street now. The ratios are fairly close, if not favor AA. Eagle has lost more percentage wise that AA. The JFK hub is pretty much gone as of May 1. What have been the steps foward for Eagle?

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

Uh, how many Eagle pilots are out on furlough vs. AA pilots are out on furlough? Do the math.

Eagle might have lost some growth opportunities, but they haven''t been taking steps backward from what I can tell.

 

[capeman]

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On 4/29/2003 1041 AM gogogadget wrote:

I understand that they are upset, and that their MEC has the responsibility to raise a stink but why? Not pointing fingers just curious and hope they can explain?

No concessions by eagle? They received profit sharing and a raise?
Eagle will go all jet now (give or take a few places like sju)? 50 seats and below will be eagle pilots? Eagle is slated to receive 100+ jets in the next few years? AA is shrinking? 51 seats and above go to AA of which there are only but about a dozen 70 seaters with none on order?----------------​

First of all Eagle pilots only recieve wage increases based on what other airlines get in thier contracts for wages on a % base.

Second, Eagle never recieved profit sharing. We recieved gains sharing checks based on performance. These programs were all cut since 9/11/01. No one recieved a penny extra this year.

Third. AA is taking away our highest paying aircraft that we fly all to thier own. The flow back never stated that this was up for grabs. Just the number of seats of pilots to flow was available to flow back.

Fouth. After we finish recieving jets to replace the Saab 340's, it seems any extra EMB jets Eagle gets will go to AA for the left seat while Eagle crews the right seat. No chance for our 7 year FO's to upgrade.

No concessions my A$$. By the way Eagle has a lot more options for the 70 seat jet than the dozen we have now. How would APA feel if someone else came in and took the 777 to crew?

I haven't seen all the arrangements yet, but for some one to say Eagle pilots didn't give a thing you are correct. They were just TAKEN AWAY with no one from Eagle at the table to bargain. How is that for a concession?

 

[capeman]

Me too!!

 

[AirwAr]

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On 4/28/2003 1118 PM FA Mikey wrote:

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On 4/28/2003 10:42:57 PM Airline Crew Sched wrote:

another work group that needs to start to complain. Why even post that we need to be positive. who cares about eagle anyway

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Because Eagle is a part of AMR. it will be apart of our success or failure. Those people have lives and families too.

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For the first time in a long time I actually agree with something that Mikey says.

 

[Winglet]

AA plans to furlough an additional 2500 pilots over the next 12-15 months in addition to the 1100 already on furlough . . . about 3500 total or about 25% of the entire seniority list. In addition to waiving furlough protection, 69% of APA pilots voted for 23% pay cuts and work rule changes that will virtually ensure most of those 3500 furloughees will never go back to AA . . . assuming AA survives. Additionally, expect all F-100 to go away almost immediately and the 767-200s. When BK comes expect all Twa 757s, probably the A300s, and some older MD-80s to go as well.

Since it appears that AA has the APA tied securely over the barrel for at least 8 more years, long term I think you're going to see AA "Eagleize" the domestic flying with commuter style compensation on mainline. You may well see "one list" but it won't be about bringing AE up to mainline compensation, it'll be about bringing mainline to regional compensation. The vague language of the 70 seat aircraft deal "cost neutral" is the operative one here. The new contract give AA huge leeway in dictating the terms.

You've only seen the beginnings of AA cuts. I'm afraid Eagle is along for the ride on this deal, and a wild one it's going to be. Cinch up your seat belt extra tight.

 

[gogogadget]

Capeman,

Calm down before you pop a vessel. The question received from the management types when APA was bitchin about "everybody "sharing in these concessions was that Eagle was not slated to take concessions.

Meanwhile as the f100 Flying is drawn down and AA shrinks, Eagle increases and takes on RJ''s. Hubs change, there is nothing we can do about that. Usually when flying is drawn down somewhere it increases elsewhere. What is a pilot to do? Commute or move.

I understand that the 70 seater was a hope for more money. Honestly though it was hope for money for a select few that waived the flow through option. (of which those pilots are granfathered in this new clause) The hope for advancement at eagle was and is in the aquisition of new jets and routes and flow up into AA. Period. Eagle will get 50seats and below and will continue to grow and upgrade those 7 year FO''s. and more! AA pilots will get 51 seats and greater. (did I also mention there are zero orders for 51 seaters and above strike the very few that Eagle has given away or not taken dilevery of) Out of 2400 pilots at Eagle how many are in the 70 seater or would have been? Not a big number, less than 2 dozen or so?

AA furloughees wont be working in the near future. The Flow back will only effect a small group (if it is even approved) and many of those guys wont even touch an RJ for 1-3 years. Meanwhile in that same time period, guess who is flying the jets? (Starts with and E and ends with an E)

"No concessions my A$$. By the way Eagle has a lot more options for the 70 seat jet than the dozen we have now. How would APA feel if someone else came in and took the 777 to crew? "

It would suck big time, but the bonus here is that Just like AA crews, if you stay long enough you too can fly the 777 via the flow through. That was the original plan with the flow up. At this point many of the furloughees won get to fly the 777 either. Many of the Eagle pilots will leave Eagle anyway and head to some other carrier to finish there. Be it Jetblue SWA DAL or USairways. If they want to stay at eagle they can and will end up at AA regardless of the 70seater or not.

I am not belittiling, just defending a viewpoint with a little rationale. Many of pilots at AA and other carriers would rather have our own native AMR types at AA anyways.............

 

[capeman]

gogogadget:

I'm not popping a vessel, I'm just stating the facts.

1. The F100 flying that has gone down has not affected the RJ's. The RJ increase that you say is happening is not actually. We trade in a Saab and get an RJ. Therefore, there is no upgrades or movement up. Yes we get new airplanes but we also give some back. Actually, Eagle just sold 19 ATR 42's to Fed Ex. Where are these pilots going? ans. pink slip June 1.

2. The select few that you refer to on the 70 seater (CRJ) as to senior and that not many would have a shot at it is false. Eagle is expected to get a possible 50 of them at 5 capt.. per airplane that works out to 250 pilots. Many of which are not Eagle rights. The FO's of 250 would also see an increase in pay if they could bid it. APA has also selected those seats for furloughees. No Eagle FO's would be able to bid the CRJ.

3. You said Eagle will grow and all 50 seaters and below belong to Eagle. Sowewhat true. The future expansion of the 50 seaters according to APA will have AA furloughees flying the left seat. How can an Eagle FO upgrade? Not a net gain for Eagle pilots, is it?

4. Please do more research before you reply next time.

5. Eagle is taking a hit whether you believe it or not.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 4/29/2003 321 PM capeman wrote:

gogogadget:

I'm not popping a vessel, I'm just stating the facts.

1. The F100 flying that has gone down has not affected the RJ's. The RJ increase that you say is happening is not actually. We trade in a Saab and get an RJ. Therefore, there is no upgrades or movement up. Yes we get new airplanes but we also give some back. Actually, Eagle just sold 19 ATR 42's to Fed Ex. Where are these pilots going? ans. pink slip June 1.

2. The select few that you refer to on the 70 seater (CRJ) as to senior and that not many would have a shot at it is false. Eagle is expected to get a possible 50 of them at 5 capt.. per airplane that works out to 250 pilots. Many of which are not Eagle rights. The FO's of 250 would also see an increase in pay if they could bid it. APA has also selected those seats for furloughees. No Eagle FO's would be able to bid the CRJ.

3. You said Eagle will grow and all 50 seaters and below belong to Eagle. Sowewhat true. The future expansion of the 50 seaters according to APA will have AA furloughees flying the left seat. How can an Eagle FO upgrade? Not a net gain for Eagle pilots, is it?

4. Please do more research before you reply next time.

5. Eagle is taking a hit whether you believe it or not.

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I thought that Supplement W was eliminated in the TA, but I may be mistaken. Besides, how many APA pilots are going to go to AE to fly ERJ-145s? Wouldn't they be locked in for a minimum period of time? If they did, might they lose their spot at AA is AA's finances improve (allowing expansion of mainline)??

And the current formula allows AE to fly up to 600 or so ERJ-145s.

That represents a lot of AE growth and opportunities (unless, of course, all the left seats are taken by furloughed AA mainline pilots).

The net result is that AE is probably going to grow rapidly in the next several years, but there might not be as many CRJ captain's seats as the ALPA was hoping for (and maybe counting on). But there are going to be lots and lots and lots of ERJ-145s, assuming that AMR can find the financing for them. And those planes will be flown by and maintained by AE flight crews and AE MX. Not too shabby, considering that APA's Scope Clause capped AE at 67 50+ seaters until just the other day.

There's an old saying about not counting chickens until they hatch that might be appropriate for the ALPA to consider here . . .

 

[gogogadget]

Capeman,

I did as you requested and went and rechecked my facts.

The facts are that the F100 is retiring. We are not filling vacancies for the aircraft at this time. We will take on a few 777 and 767''s. AE current fleet count by YE2003 284 aircraft. YE2004 309 YE2005 332. According the the AMR 8k filing. AA''s fleet goes from 812 to 717 in the same time period. Yes, AE will replace aircraft but not nearly the rate at which they retire them, and this shows that there will be a net increase in aircraft. If you want the retirements, I can get that for you also. The reason Eagle pilots will get the pink slips on June 1 is not because of AA, it is because AMR sold your aircraft faster than they could man the replacements.

2) Whearas the AE currently has 25 crj700 aircraft in service OR on FIRM Order and "options" for an additional 25. (You were right on more aircraft) The company will have 1 year to negotiate the transfer the aircraft to the AA certificate in a "Cost Neutral Manner" That means it has to pass muster first to even work then the AA pilots occupy the Captain Only seats while at Eagle and the company has an exception to retain the affected aircraft at Eagle if things are not agreed apon.

3)Nowhere has it been stated that AA pilots will go go into FO slots. First all CRJ CA slots, then VIA Sup W into rj CA slots. Eagle FO''s will get the FO slots until there are no more and the CA RJ slots until the fleet starts "increasing" not just replacing.

4) Then what, if you base things on assumptions all 3700 furloughees will put all Eagle pilots on the street. AA will never recall. All eagle pilots wanted to make a career of Eagle with aspirations of being a captain on theCRJ700. There will never be attrition at Eagle. Eagle will be sold off in bits and pieces and all the junior pukes will be flying atr''s in SJU.

The point is, you can make this out to be a tragedy or the advantage that it really is. Heck, many rj captains make more than many 4 and 5 year fo''s at AA after the pay cut. Shoud I blame Eagle for lowering the bar? Heck no. It just happens and things change.

Eagle is taking a hit but the only hit many people see is that everyone at Eagle will fly the jet. The pay sucks no matter which one you fly. And if money and money via an upgrade to captain is the only argument, I know many eagle pilots that leave or have left to fly bigger and better equipment for less money and More money.

 

[bluesideup]

 

[capeman]

gogogadget:

Thank you for understanding that Eagle did take some sort of hit.

I do have a question though. Once AA takes over the CRJ''s (70 seaters), How will they be crewed? My understanding is that AA crews both seats, thus taking the right seat from an Eagle FO. According to APA the CRJ''s will be transfered to the AA certificate.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/29/2003 4:38:21 PM FWAAA wrote:


And the current formula allows AE to fly up to 600 or so ERJ-50s.


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What''s an ERJ-50?

 

[FWAAA]

My bad - ERJ-145.

 

[gogogadget]

Capeman,

Once the aircraft are on the AA certificate, then aa will crew the 70 seater fo and Ca.

Blue:
First and formost I am not trying to belittle, nor am I slinging threats of being a scab and yada yada yada. The Fact of the matter is this, Eagle is a part of AMR just like AA. The difference is that we are now competing agains eachother, not directly but indirectly. Eagle was created to compliment and feed AA operations, not compete.

Right now, Eagle is growing and AA is shrinking. At what expense, you might ask. The f100 is our small aircraft and guess where a majority of that flying is going? APA is not trying to take Eagle flying, they are trying to protect AMR flying and my gut feeling is this is a step to get that done.

We are all worried about outsourcing of jobs. Eagle has been bit**** about Trans States and others are sure to come, Why? Because of outsourcing and that is being done by airlines flying the same equipment on same routes. AA is bit***** about eagle and other foreign carriers that "Codeshare" because the company continously puts paying AA pax on them because they have archaiac work rules and in many cases pay even less than Eagle. The point is that outsourcing hurts AMR employees, eagle and AA.

Answer this, how do you fix it? One list where all flying is done by AA (the Brand Name) starting from the emb135 to the 777. (figuring tp''s will be gone) Entry level positions will be fo on the rj. But you have to get there somehow and you also need a starting point. If you allow Eagle and others to grow with larger and larger aircraft being piloted by pilots being paid squat with no benefits and retirement and yada yada yada then the company will eventually transform itself even more at the expense of the employees and the profit of the shareholders. Dont you think the AMR BOD would love to pay 777 CA''s pilots the same as ERJ135 CA''s?

As a snide plug, AA loses F100 and S80 flying (stl) to eagle and you are claiming we are taking your flying away via the CRJ? It is not the aircraft, it is the flying APA is trying to protect.

Anyone that has been in aviation longenough to get hired at eagle, Knew the benefits and pitfalls of working there. Except for those that have been there 10 or more years. Eagle was a way to build time, fly tp equipment and now state of the art jets so that pilots could meet the qualifications put out by other airlines or corporate operators or freight operators to get hired in a job they could retire from. They were willing to sacrafice, good pay, benefits, quality of life and other things to reach this goal. If you dont believe me, then would you take a job Airwisconsin or Trans states or Chataqua? They fly the same equipmnet as Eagle, or is their a hiarchy when it comes to who you work for?

Keeping it cordial