ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[AAA73Pilot]

As does the Transition Agreement, which outlines how seniority between AWA and AAA will be integrated. You cannot have one without the other.

You guys are going to get massacred (again) by whatever lawyers the West guys hire.

As I said--can't fix stupid.

Back to the TA again. You obviously missed the discussion on the details of the TA not too long ago. The TA may or may not be in force if USAPA is voted in. As it plainly says the "Airlines parties" could walk away from it in the summer of '06. Even Jerry Glass says the company could walk away. Now lets fast forward, USAPA is elected, what is the first thing we'll do? Thats right exercise our inherited right to walk away from the TA. Or for that matter, we can negotiate a new TA under the USAPA C&BL's tenets. Since the NMB already ruled we are one carrier anyway. Just because we inherited ALPA contracts, doesn't mean we inherited the ALPA C&BL's.

Massacred? Not in your dreams.

Enough said on stupid. We disagree, again.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Okay, so in early 2005 when a USAirways pilot with eighteen years of "seniority" could only hold the bottom FO position was that pilot junior or senior? You yourself are redefining seniority to suit your purpose. Words have differnent meanings in different contexts. But hey, I think it would be fun for some USAPA hack to go into a courtroom trying to explain that the bottom FO at your airline is actually really senior.

I'm not redefining anything. Read the dictionary. What don't you understand? Nobody is trying to get anyone else's seat or position, at least on the East side. In fact, every merger I've ever seen or been through has included "no bump, no flush" provisions. Now, tell me why you think that someone that has been employed here continuously since 1988 should face a possible furlough before one employed in 2004 or 2005? Why should a person employed at a company for 17 years get their vacation and day off selections after one employed in 2004 or 2005? I'm waiting......

 

[767jetz]

DOH with fences and conditions is the only methodology of addressing both the short term and the long term.

No it's not. It is only one opinion. And happens to be the one that benefits you the most to the detriment of the West. And by all means you are entitled to your opinion. But don't speak in absolutes when there are none.

Another method would be relative seniority with fences and conditions. Works the same way, but from a different perspective, which is where Nicolau went when he protected the 330 flying.

 

[P51Pilot]

Okay, so in early 2005 when a USAirways pilot with eighteen years of "seniority" could only hold the bottom FO position was that pilot junior or senior? You yourself are redefining seniority to suit your purpose. Words have differnent meanings in different contexts. But hey, I think it would be fun for some USAPA hack to go into a courtroom trying to explain that the bottom FO at your airline is actually really senior.

Think of the conundrum for the judge 5, 10 years down the road when that person is far senior to you by your definition and not longevity. Or right now for that matter when Dave Odell is still holding up the bottom of the West list on short call reserve, and the so called junior Airways pilots placed right below him is a 767 Int block holder. A year from now A330 international block holder. You are presupposing the judge will look at the situation as a snapshot from 2005 and the intervening time, and forward march of time will have no value. If the West pursues litigation it will be a case on the merits of DFR and potential harm, not the arbitration which USAPA is not bound by or ALPA merger policy. In a DFR case, the judge will be looking at many issues not a 2005 snapshot because you feel it has primacy. The court moves at a snails pace. How long have the Comair/ASA pilots been waiting for their day in court over DFR allegations? A long time and the case continues to move forward but near a decade it is still ongoing and no resolution.

 

[ClueByFour]

Massacred? Not in your dreams.

Search the forum. I predicted exactly what would happen when you lacked the thinking to instruct your NC to go for anything but DOH/LOS. It happened.

Trust me on this: the courts are not going to let you guys cramdown DOH/LOS after it has already been arbitrated. You can think otherwise. You can be angry about being a 20 year FO. You won't get the pound of flesh from a West guy because their career (until the merger, anyway) was not stagnant.

"We can walk away from the TA." Instant Nicolau.

"Shuttle seniority is 'already in the contract'" Do you realize just how transparent this is, or how clearly the real motives for USAPA come shining thru?

The tyranny of the majority routine is novel. It's also going to fail. I'm stunned that allegedly educated people (and their cracker lawyer) really think that this can be pulled off.

"Let's vote!" Have fun with that.

 

[P51Pilot]

"We can walk away from the TA." Instant Nicolau.

Wrong. Both the America West and US Airways pilot working agreements will be in force seperately absent the TA as the currently are except for the exceptions contained in the TA. The transition agreement has language allowing the parties to walk away. The sacrificial lamb would be the capture of the EMB 190 in the TA if the company so chose, how ever the East operation is currently under by 30+ aircraft and min staffing requirements for Group II aircraft in the absence of the TA. No such protections exist in the West contract, no profit sharing, no DC. etc.

USAPA will have every right to amend the TA as the CBA. It like any contract can be opened at any by the CBA and the company. USAPA will be in control of the situation, not ALPA.

 

[cactusboy53]

Forget ALPA. It's DONE! Now, let's come up with a REAL merger policy. It needs to be legal, following the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions, and FAIR, with protections for careers. Some issues will need to go DOH, some may not. Seniority is a huge part of the fairness formula, but it's not everything.

Good for you, buddy. I'm voting for ALPA week after next. Not because ALPA is the greatest, but it is the best selection for all factors pertaining to representation and benefits.

I'm just curious. Did you actually read the A-M provisions or the new legislation pertaining to airline mergers? If you did, surely you would have read that it NEARLY MIRRORS the ALPA Merger Policy. So what will you do then when we merge with another airline and the BINDING ARBITRATION again follows some sort of relative seniority / slotting?? I guess if you hold your breath long enough, you could make them change the rules again. Not.

I think the vote will be very close. That said, if USAPA is voted in you may expect the AWA pilots to fight on every legal ground to get fair representation. You will probably even see the Nicolau Award implemented sooner than it may have been under ALPA representation. After all look at the delays that Prater has been PERSONALLY responsible for. The AAA pilots have personally re-achieved jobs and captain seats as a direct result of his involvement. Too bad you haven't been able to see that.

Welcome to THE NEW US AIRWAYS.......it may take a while, but you will be assimilated.....

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Search the forum. I predicted exactly what would happen when you lacked the thinking to instruct your NC to go for anything but DOH/LOS. It happened.

Trust me on this: the courts are not going to let you guys cramdown DOH/LOS after it has already been arbitrated. You can think otherwise. You can be angry about being a 20 year FO. You won't get the pound of flesh from a West guy because their career (until the merger, anyway) was not stagnant.

"We can walk away from the TA." Instant Nicolau.

"Shuttle seniority is 'already in the contract'" Do you realize just how transparent this is, or how clearly the real motives for USAPA come shining thru?

The tyranny of the majority routine is novel. It's also going to fail. I'm stunned that allegedly educated people (and their cracker lawyer) really think that this can be pulled off.

"Let's vote!" Have fun with that.

Just wait until this snowball reaches YOUR airline. If I were you, that's what I'be worried about. ALPA needs to go. They should have foreseen this and didn't, only to appease junior pilots at UAL. Now, he entire industry s "effed up" because of ALPA's "NON-MERGER" policy. ALPA should have had a policy spelling out exactly what the list would look like, not sending it to some arbitrator that can be influenced by the leadership of ALPA to suit their goals, in this case to destroy the US pilots' seniority for future mergers wth other ALPA carriers.

I'm ready. Let's vote! Oh, that's right, you can't because you don't work here! Bye Bye ALPA!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Search the forum. I predicted exactly what would happen when you lacked the thinking to instruct your NC to go for anything but DOH/LOS. It happened.

Good for you. Now look where we are. Stalemate with ALPA

Trust me on this: the courts are not going to let you guys cramdown DOH/LOS after it has already been arbitrated. You can think otherwise. You can be angry about being a 20 year FO. You won't get the pound of flesh from a West guy because their career (until the merger, anyway) was not stagnant. "We can walk away from the TA." Instant Nicolau.

Uh..No. That conclusion is not correct. But keep trying.

"Shuttle seniority is 'already in the contract'" Do you realize just how transparent this is, or how clearly the real motives for USAPA come shining thru?

So what? It is legal and happening.

The tyranny of the majority routine is novel. It's also going to fail. I'm stunned that allegedly educated people (and their cracker lawyer) really think that this can be pulled off.

You stick to your convictions and I'll stick to mine. USAPA wins, you file a DFR, the courts rule and thats that. End of story. Who wins and who loses will be determined at a later date. Knock yourself out if it makes you happy.

"Let's vote!" Have fun with that.

Looking forward to it.

 

[EastUS]

Trust me on this:

The tyranny of the majority routine is novel. It's also going to fail.

Whew! So much for the very foundational bedrock upon which democracy is based. You should call Washington immediately and inform everyone that they all need to simply give up, and shut this place down. :blink:

""Let's vote!" Have fun with that." Thanks..We will

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Good for you, buddy. I'm voting for ALPA week after next. Not because ALPA is the greatest, but it is the best selection for all factors pertaining to representation and benefits.

Good for you, I'm voting for USAPA for the very same reasons.

I'm just curious. Did you actually read the A-M provisions or the new legislation pertaining to airline mergers? If you did, surely you would have read that it NEARLY MIRRORS the ALPA Merger Policy. So what will you do then when we merge with another airline and the BINDING ARBITRATION again follows some sort of relative seniority / slotting?? I guess if you hold your breath long enough, you could make them change the rules again. Not.

Have you read the premise that sparked A-M in the first place? Every merger (To my knowledge) using it as the basis have gone by DOH. How do you reconcile the fact that ALPA merger policy changed in '92? The old and the new policies cannot both rely on A-M as the basis of merging seniority. Quite the conundrum there.

I think the vote will be very close. That said, if USAPA is voted in you may expect the AWA pilots to fight on every legal ground to get fair representation. You will probably even see the Nicolau Award implemented sooner than it may have been under ALPA representation. After all look at the delays that Prater has been PERSONALLY responsible for. The AAA pilots have personally re-achieved jobs and captain seats as a direct result of his involvement. Too bad you haven't been able to see that.

What else is new? We know what's coming. As I said to another poster, knock yourself out. No, I'm sorry, Nic is not coming to a contract anytime at all. But keep having fun with the FUD.

Welcome to THE NEW US AIRWAYS.......it may take a while, but you will be assimilated.....

Welcome to USAPA, you too will be welcome after Apr. 17th.

 

[EastUS]

The AAA pilots have personally re-achieved jobs and captain seats as a direct result of his involvement. Too bad you haven't been able to see that.

Actually, that's been clearly seen out here. It's a really, really great feeling to see guys/gals that have suffered so much for this operation finally back on the line. It's surprising what the FINALLY cohesive will of this group can accomplish. Anyone else out there on record as putting Alpo on the run in recent history? Prater hasn't even burped to help you guys...in case "you haven't been able to see that." The lesson of what's truly possible as a group is well-learned out here now.

Addendum: You must naturally vote as you think best. I'll offer the following for all the FUD jockeys out there though: Do ANY of you honestly imagine that Alpo's likely to prove a benevolent dictatorship for you/all of us here, should it be retained after the election? Is there ANY historical record of loving behavior from the sorts who demand "Loyalty Oaths",intentionally block recall efforts, and cheerfully remove elected officials at their slightest whim? What IS the usual treatment of "revolutionists" if they fail? Perhaps those out west imagine some "special dispensation" since they're of the AWA "Faithfull".....ummm...that've been constantly threatening suit against ALPA all throughout this Nic debacle? Oh..I know, I know..All at Herndon are only the finest of Nature's Noblemen...but..think on it.... for even an instant. I will grant that it would prove problematic to differentiate between clearly vindictive behavior..and just the usual incompetence...

 

[exB717Flyer]

I'm not redefining anything. Read the dictionary. What don't you understand?

You didn't even try to answer my questions. The bottom USAirways guy in early 2005: was he junior or senior? Funny how that dictionary definition is inapplicable.

Now, tell me why you think that someone that has been employed here continuously since 1988 should face a possible furlough before one employed in 2004 or 2005?

Read the Nicolau Award for my answer. I happen to agree with his reasoning.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Okay, so in early 2005 when a USAirways pilot with eighteen years of "seniority" could only hold the bottom FO position was that pilot junior or senior? You yourself are redefining seniority to suit your purpose. Words have differnent meanings in different contexts. But hey, I think it would be fun for some USAPA hack to go into a courtroom trying to explain that the bottom FO at your airline is actually really senior.

Like you said, words have different meanings. I see you asked and answered your own question using your context. Junior to the east, senior to the west. But exercising that seniority will be defined in conditions and restrictions. When the next east retirement occurs, who has rights to that position? Before merger? Post merger? How about the next retirement out west. Who has those rights to capture the position? Interesting isn't it?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Main Entry: se·nior·i·ty
Pronunciation: sEn-'yor-&-tE
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being senior

As someone else said, how senior is that 15 year East pilot? Flying widebody Captain across the pond with all that seniority he/she has accumulated? Maybe narrowbody Captain - 15 years is a lot of seniority after all to accumulate. Right?

2 : the senior status attained by length of continuous service (as in a company); also : the length of such continuous service

Everyone who quotes this definition always misses one very little word, but I've emphasized it for you - a company. Nobody has disputed that seniority is measured by longevity at a company. However, what you want to insist on is that longevity is the measure of seniority across all like companies - what X years gets you at one should be the same as it gets someone at any of the others. It doesn't work that way - just ask the 15-20 year "senior" pilots at East if their longivity has gotten them the same as their longevity peers at all other airlines.

I once posed this question and never got an answer - 3 pilots work for different airlines but you have no way to tell which airlines. One has the seniority to hold widebody Capt, the second to hold 737 Capt, and the third to hold 737 F/O. Which has the most longevity and which has the least. Which has the most seniority and which the least? After all, if longevity is the same as seniority the answers should be obvious.

Jim