oldiebutgoody
Veteran
- Aug 23, 2002
- 2,627
- 945
Doubt it.
ALPA/USAPA/Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/12-4/19
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
- Status
US Airline Pilots Association
5821 Fairview Road, Suite 400
Charlotte, NC 28209
April 18, 2008
Fellow Pilots,
Yesterday afternoon, the US Airways Pilots spoke for self rule and the US Airline Pilots Association took flight. Although it has taken literally thousands of volunteer hours to get us here today, it is now that the real job begins. USAPA is ready to accept the responsibility of leading this pilot group into the future, but let us be clear, the responsibility for success is a two way street. The winds of change that brings a promising future must not die, but rather build so as to motivate each and every one of us to participate in order to achieve success in our endeavors.
There are reasons for what happened here today, not one, but many. Without getting overly philosophical, in our profession as in life, when personal limits are exceeded, change is imminent. Sometimes change comes through conflict, but conflict brings opportunity and that is what we have here today. We have opportunity not just for the US Airways pilots, but for the entire profession, as once again we find ourselves at the tip of the spear.
We are not without our challenges, and we will not escape unscathed. We acknowledge the open wounds that now exist among us, but I will promise this: I will do everything a President of this Association can do to set us on a path that equally represents the interests of this entire pilot group, East and West. In the long run, all pilots throughout our entire profession will be better served by what we accomplish.
Solidarity in the face of corporate abuse is an obvious necessity. Unlike managements that have come and gone, we are strongly connected to our company. Therefore it is the long term solutions for success we seek for our company rather than the short term view that entertains quick profits. Our approach to management will be businesslike, and it goes without saying that our pilots, all of our pilots, require a return on the huge investments they have made in this corporation.
To the entire group of USAPA volunteers, my deepest thanks to you all. You never tired, you never wavered. You have always known what was at stake here and you choose to stand up and be counted. But there is little time to celebrate, as today is really only the beginning.
Sincerely,
Steve Bradford
Interim President - USAPA
E
EastUS
Guest
It's extremely unfortunate that we ever had/have the hugely divisive business from Nic to deal with. The benefit, imho, is that we're finally rid of a parasitical scam-fest of an "association" that served little to no purpose, other than to slurp up vast amounts of our collective income, and feed us turmoil and disaster in return. We finally have an opportunity to move forward. What we do with it's up to all of us.
sharktooth
Veteran
- Jan 27, 2006
- 1,846
- 0
Really.
The "nic" was never ratified in any way. Submitting it to the company comes under more of a part dependent (by the TA) on other parts rather than a standalone agreement.
IANAL, but, to make the "nic" an agreement would have required that both the east and the west separately ratify a merger agreement, which would have carried the "nic" as one of its parts. As an example, one could call "Section One" of the west contract an agreement, but operatively that makes no sense without all the other sections and you will go nowhere with just Section One.
It would be like having a car without an engine. Looks good on the curb but you are not going anywhere and eventually you will put it up on blocks in the front yard and be forgotten by time, if not you. You might get in it, fantasize about driving it, but other than fantasy, you will never go anywhere with it.
This is a totally disingenuous post. If the USAPA pilots were actually interested in reaching a mutual accommodation with the west pilots they would require, as ALPA did, approval of any change to the Nicolau Award by the west. What we were told by Bradford and Seham (“the tyranny of the majority is democracyâ€) in PHX is that USAPA intended to “end the stalemate†by using it’s majority on the east to stuff DOH down the west’s throats. Whatever accommodations it will make in the form of “conditions and restrictions†are window dressing that has already been rejected. Be in no doubt, my friend, a war is ready to begin and my dues will be going to AWWAPA to fight it, not to USAPA to undermine my future or pay multi millions to so called professional negotiators who have never negotiated anything.
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
Everybody needs to drop it and get on with the bloody job at hand: Getting a good contract.
Sit down, shut up, and THINK MAN!
Later,
Eye
Sit down, shut up, and THINK MAN!
Later,
Eye
US Airways pilots vote for new union
by Dawn Gilbertson - Apr. 18, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
US Airways' divided pilots resolved one thorny dispute with the election of a new union Thursday, but there already are signs the outcome won't
bring labor peace to the 5,200-employee group. The upstart US Airline Pilots Association handily beat the incumbent Air Line Pilots Association, 2,723 to 2,254, in a vote closely watched for its window into the challenges of airline mergers. US Airways and America West pilots both were represented by ALPA, but there was infighting from the start, especially over seniority issues. Seniority dictates a pilot's schedule, vacation time and pace of promotions. USAPA, formed last year by pilots on the East Coast who felt the merged seniority list unfairly favored their America West counterparts in the West, said its victory means a "new day has begun" for the airline's pilots.
"USAPA on Day 1 is ready to begin a new era for all US Airways pilots, East and West," interim president Stephen Bradford said in a statement.
It will now be charged with negotiating a single contract covering the 3,400 pilots from the former US Airways and 1,800 from the former America
West.
That is a critical merger milestone the Tempe airline needs to reach to truly combine its operations and bring together its employees. It has recently
reached agreement with two other big groups, the airline's mechanics and baggage handlers. Bradford said USAPA "will approach management in a more businesslike fashion to address the deficiencies of the collective US Airways pilots' contract . . . contracts which were originally accepted by the pilots during the hardships placed on the airlines during the post-9/11 era." Part of USAPA's pitch was that ALPA, which represents pilots at several major carriers, had too many conflicts of interest that an independent
union wouldn't have. Its biggest selling point, at least for pilots of the old US Airways, was that it would toss out the seniority list that was decided on by a federal
arbitrator a year ago and signed off on by ALPA and US Airways. USAPA officials said they will instead base seniority on a pilot's date of hire, which favors pilots who started with US Airways as it is much older than America West.
The arbitrator used a ratio to blend the lists of active US Airways and America West pilots.
The biggest sticking point for opponents of the list: The arbitrator put US Airways pilots who had been furloughed during that airline's two
bankruptcies at the bottom of the list, meaning they ranked below many America West pilots even though they started earlier and are flying now.
"No pilot ever wants to go down a seniority list," said George Hopkins, a retired Western Illinois University professor who has written three books
on airline labor history. The continued battle over seniority is where the strife is likely to continue. Already, union leaders with the America West unit of ALPA have sent a letter to Bradford and US Airways CEO Doug Parker threatening legal action if the arbitrator's decision is modified in contract negotiations or otherwise.
"I have no doubt that litigation will ensue," said John McIlvenna, chairman of the America West unit of ALPA. He and other union leaders were
stunned by the vote, thinking it would be much closer. McIlvenna also worries that the election of USAPA will delay an already-overdue new contract.
"We could be going two or three more years without a contract just because the expectations of the East pilots with regards to seniority as well as
wages and benefits are going to be so out of whack," he said. Hopkins said he doesn't think the new union can overturn the arbitrator's decision simply because another union was decertified. He predicts a rough road ahead. ALPA has been ousted before, most famously at American Airlines in the 1960s, but he believes this is the first time it's been done in the midst of a merger.
by Dawn Gilbertson - Apr. 18, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
US Airways' divided pilots resolved one thorny dispute with the election of a new union Thursday, but there already are signs the outcome won't
bring labor peace to the 5,200-employee group. The upstart US Airline Pilots Association handily beat the incumbent Air Line Pilots Association, 2,723 to 2,254, in a vote closely watched for its window into the challenges of airline mergers. US Airways and America West pilots both were represented by ALPA, but there was infighting from the start, especially over seniority issues. Seniority dictates a pilot's schedule, vacation time and pace of promotions. USAPA, formed last year by pilots on the East Coast who felt the merged seniority list unfairly favored their America West counterparts in the West, said its victory means a "new day has begun" for the airline's pilots.
"USAPA on Day 1 is ready to begin a new era for all US Airways pilots, East and West," interim president Stephen Bradford said in a statement.
It will now be charged with negotiating a single contract covering the 3,400 pilots from the former US Airways and 1,800 from the former America
West.
That is a critical merger milestone the Tempe airline needs to reach to truly combine its operations and bring together its employees. It has recently
reached agreement with two other big groups, the airline's mechanics and baggage handlers. Bradford said USAPA "will approach management in a more businesslike fashion to address the deficiencies of the collective US Airways pilots' contract . . . contracts which were originally accepted by the pilots during the hardships placed on the airlines during the post-9/11 era." Part of USAPA's pitch was that ALPA, which represents pilots at several major carriers, had too many conflicts of interest that an independent
union wouldn't have. Its biggest selling point, at least for pilots of the old US Airways, was that it would toss out the seniority list that was decided on by a federal
arbitrator a year ago and signed off on by ALPA and US Airways. USAPA officials said they will instead base seniority on a pilot's date of hire, which favors pilots who started with US Airways as it is much older than America West.
The arbitrator used a ratio to blend the lists of active US Airways and America West pilots.
The biggest sticking point for opponents of the list: The arbitrator put US Airways pilots who had been furloughed during that airline's two
bankruptcies at the bottom of the list, meaning they ranked below many America West pilots even though they started earlier and are flying now.
"No pilot ever wants to go down a seniority list," said George Hopkins, a retired Western Illinois University professor who has written three books
on airline labor history. The continued battle over seniority is where the strife is likely to continue. Already, union leaders with the America West unit of ALPA have sent a letter to Bradford and US Airways CEO Doug Parker threatening legal action if the arbitrator's decision is modified in contract negotiations or otherwise.
"I have no doubt that litigation will ensue," said John McIlvenna, chairman of the America West unit of ALPA. He and other union leaders were
stunned by the vote, thinking it would be much closer. McIlvenna also worries that the election of USAPA will delay an already-overdue new contract.
"We could be going two or three more years without a contract just because the expectations of the East pilots with regards to seniority as well as
wages and benefits are going to be so out of whack," he said. Hopkins said he doesn't think the new union can overturn the arbitrator's decision simply because another union was decertified. He predicts a rough road ahead. ALPA has been ousted before, most famously at American Airlines in the 1960s, but he believes this is the first time it's been done in the midst of a merger.
E
EastUS
Guest
"He and other union leaders were stunned by the vote," That's funny...No one out east was surprised in the slightest, much less "stunned". Must we revisit such genius awareness levels as "You won't even get 200 cards!" "You don't have the votes" Leo's famous: "I will be laughing tomorrow, you will be shocked at the number of easties that haven't voted. BTW you are aware that the west's war room contacts every pilot and logstheir vote, or did you think we were just sitting around?" Shortly, of course, followed by: "Alpa lost by over 400 votes. The war is on". Words fail me people...Are THESE the sorts of "leaders" who's "judgment" and "situational awareness" you're so eagerly willing to follow into "war"? Are you nuts?
"QUOTE (aquagreen73s @ Apr 14 2008, 10:24 PM)
You don't have the votes. Friday morning you will wake up and still have ALPA as your collective bargaining agent."
Prechill: "Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy, the law trumps emotion. On Thursday USAPA will be lucky to get half of the east pilots' vote."
Keep following the brilliant strategies and enlightened guidance of the utterly clueless if it suits your whims to do so. How long are you folks going to listen to these 'geniuses"?
"You're either part of the solution..or..you're part of the problem"
Poug Darker
Senior
- Jul 12, 2006
- 276
- 22
Enough Pontificating,
Lets Start Negotiating,
So we can be highly compensated,
and Doug can begin integrating;
and maybe we will be consolidating(?).
Enough tribulation,
Time for celebration!
Remember boys, "Its all about W-2" - I need a raise, don't you?
Lets Start Negotiating,
So we can be highly compensated,
and Doug can begin integrating;
and maybe we will be consolidating(?).
Enough tribulation,
Time for celebration!
Remember boys, "Its all about W-2" - I need a raise, don't you?
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
- Aug 23, 2002
- 2,627
- 945
Oh my! It's Poug "Diddy" Darker!
I prefer this quote:
"Hopkins said he doesn't think the new union can overturn the arbitrator's decision simply because another union was decertified. He predicts a rough road ahead."
hp_fa
Veteran
- Feb 19, 2004
- 3,290
- 178
Let's be real. Wages are going to likely be going down. Why? Because of consolidation of the industry.
The current merger and consolidation craze is designed to reduce capacity. Reducing capacity is going to mean some pilots will become unemployed in the industry. Those that are unemployed may choose to change professions, but many will not and that will create a pool of unemployed pilots with their ATR in hand. Type ratings can be obtained and if they come to work cheaply enough the airline will have an incentive to just train them. ALPA was not going to be able to change this trend and USAPA will also will not be able to change fundemental economic realities.
From where I sit I don't see much chance that this pilot group will have the same employer by the time the East contract becomes amenible. There will likely be either be a merger or a bankruptcy. Either way it is a no-win scenario. The best that can be hoped for is status quo with the company, and I frankly think that is less likely than liklely.
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
Yes, this would be convenient for you, wouldn't it? Unfortunately this is only the beginning of the legal war, not the end of it.
By the way, where was this sentiment of yours when the arbitration award came out. The East certainly didn't drop it and get to a good contract. What makes you think the West will do that now? Do you honestly believe they will just roll over and submit to your will. If anything, this has untied the West's hands to move forward with legally implementing the Nicolau award. Remember, they no longer have to appease ALPA either.
You are really disillusioned by the reality you find yourself in. USAPA being successful in their bid to represent USAirways pilots was not the end. To the contrary it is just the beginning.
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
- Aug 23, 2002
- 2,627
- 945
You need to get in contact with AWAAPA ASAP! They will GLADLY accept YOUR DONATION to their legal fund.
Then, I would begin to brace for the impact of the next round of mergers.
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