AAA thread 11/2-11/8

[EastUS]

If the East won't vote for the contract, what will YOU do?? So please do not continue to MISREPRESENT the FACTS! I saw you on last weeks video talking to Scott Kirby about "Federal Binding Arbitration". This award is no more bound under anything Federal Binding than super glue on your lips!
Misrepresent the facts?? How so?? By informing you of the proper channels in which to follow? BTW you have never ever seen me my good man because I don't waste my time on the Kirby and Parker shows. Now who ever you saw making statements was certainly not me.

Now you asked for the information and I provided it. Sending me maritime data which pertains to BOATS/SHIPS would cover your comment of "MISREPRESENT THE FACT!" Fairly nicely.

Later

"If the East won't vote for the contract, what will YOU do??" seems the pertinent question.

 

[AWA320]

"If the East won't vote for the contract, what will YOU do??" seems the pertinent question.

If they don't they don't but they should at the very least have the opportunity don't you think?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Naw. We'll just wait for section 6. It'll be easier that way.

 

[Frank Bama]

You guys can kid yourselves all you want, Nic is final and binding, period.
The AAA MEC can't change it, the company can't change it, and certainly USAPA can't change it. The ONLY possible way you can get any relief is from the West rank and file.
( The very people you insult on this and other threads )
The only way you can get them to do that is joint negotiations, which you are working so hard to avoid. Further, you shoot yourselves in the other foot with the USAPA drive, which only serves to harden the West resolve NOT to work with you.

You kid yourselves more by thinking you can simply wait this out. The company will not let that happen. I'm surprised Doogie has let this go on as long as it has. What are you hoping to accomplish? Capturing attrition? I suggest that even under the best circumstances there would not be a contract by the end of '07 anyway. So the '07 attrition you're "capturing" likely would have been yours anyway, right? What do you get in '08, another 51?
Meanwhile, how much are you loosing?

The one thing I would agree with you on is that Prater is completely failing at his job.

Respectfully,

Bama

 

[Elevation]

You guys can kid yourselves all you want, Nic is final and binding, period.
The AAA MEC can't change it, the company can't change it, and certainly USAPA can't change it. The ONLY possible way you can get any relief is from the West rank and file.
( The very people you insult on this and other threads )
The only way you can get them to do that is joint negotiations, which you are working so hard to avoid. Further, you shoot yourselves in the other foot with the USAPA drive, which only serves to harden the West resolve NOT to work with you.

You kid yourselves more by thinking you can simply wait this out. The company will not let that happen. I'm surprised Doogie has let this go on as long as it has. What are you hoping to accomplish? Capturing attrition? I suggest that even under the best circumstances there would not be a contract by the end of '07 anyway. So the '07 attrition you're "capturing" likely would have been yours anyway, right? What do you get in '08, another 51?
Meanwhile, how much are you loosing?

The one thing I would agree with you on is that Prater is completely failing at his job.

Respectfully,

Bama

Truer words have never been spoken

 

[EastUS]

[quote name='Frank Bama' date='Nov 7 2007, 12:47 AM' post='541128'
You kid yourselves more by thinking you can simply wait this out. The company will not let that happen. I'm surprised Doogie has let this go on as long as it has. [/quote]

Why would/should management care in the least? The savings in payroll amount to over a hundred million per year. Perhaps you've yet some fantasy that they actually care about you guys...sheesh.

"The company will not let that happen."..said six months into it actually happening. You're joking, right? What, in any case..do you imagine that "the company" is going to do? This should be good

"The one thing I would agree with you on is that Prater is completely failing at his job." That's a start.

"Truer words have never been spoken" = Effects of sharing the same Koolaide.

 

[Phoenix]

Careful there East, you may offend the only people who can give us relief on TFBT (That Final Binding Thingy). Since they absolutely refuse to do any fences at all I know they are intent on capturing what is not theirs (so I am not sure why you have to worry about offending the TFBT folks, but you've been warned none the less.

 

[Frank Bama]

The ALPA Executive Committee validated Nic finally on Sept. 20th.
The caviot that it not be implemented until there is a joint contract is only a side note that affects the decision AFTER it is presented to the company. It is valid now.
Prater is in violation of his EC directive by not sending it to Doogie. A matter I think you will see is taken care of soon.

Thanks for the concern, but I am not drinking (or smoking) anything that would put me under the delusion that this company cares about it's employees.
I'm sure Doogie & Co. are enjoying the East shenanigans. And, yes, East, I agree... all the way to the bank.
But as soon as they need this to end, they will end it whether you like it or not.

Just my opinion. I'm not asking you to agree.

Bama

 

[EastUS]

[quote name='Frank Bama' date='Nov 7 2007, 01:52 AM' post='541142'
Just my opinion. I'm not asking you to agree.

Bama
[/quote]

Understood. Likewise here. It's sad, and often irritating for all of us to be in this current trainwreck. I don't see any mechanism by which the company is likely to do much of anything, and, as previously noted; there seems little gains for them in combining pilot groups at this point. One might assume that they're just trying to better package the place to merge/sell/whatever, but other than that...there isn't any impetus I see for them getting stressed over the "perfect storm" in pilot labor groups. They couldn't have gotten a better gift themselves than old St Nic provided.

"Prater is in violation of his EC directive by not sending it to Doogie. A matter I think you will see is taken care of soon." Naturally, he's/they're just trying to avoid decertification. Great buncha' guys, huh? Poor fellows are in a real dilemma..entirely of their own incompetent makings. They send straight Nic out, and they're voted off the island pronto, and they know it. I suspect that we'll also see Alpo taken care of pretty soon. In the meanwhile, we can expect behind the scenes intrigue from them, and some frantic attempts at survival for Alpo here. One thing's pretty evident = They've not the slightest concern for either of our groups, other than as dues paying fools. Now, I'll not overlook the thought that Prater et al may also be trying to finalize some issues that would make us ALL nicely pre-packaged "junior" idiots for a UAL merger....but, there's certainly nada/zip/zero going on at Alpo that's the least bit concerned for any of us here.

 

[end_of_alpa]

If the East won't vote for the contract, what will YOU do?? So please do not continue to MISREPRESENT the FACTS! I saw you on last weeks video talking to Scott Kirby about "Federal Binding Arbitration". This award is no more bound under anything Federal Binding than super glue on your lips!
Misrepresent the facts?? How so?? By informing you of the proper channels in which to follow? BTW you have never ever seen me my good man because I don't waste my time on the Kirby and Parker shows. Now who ever you saw making statements was certainly not me.

Now you asked for the information and I provided it. Sending me maritime data which pertains to BOATS/SHIPS would cover your comment of "MISREPRESENT THE FACT!" Fairly nicely.

Later

AWA320: It is obvious you can not read the information so read my post again....the FEDERAL ARBITRATION ACT (FAA) does NOT apply to labor union contracts. There is NO channel through the FAA. The history of labor unions AND companys revealed that they did not want to be compelled into arbitration without the ultimate use of SELF HELP (strike or lockout). I know you can't read long posts so I will explain this to the rest in short, quoting from above the pertinent part: "but nothing herein contained shall apply to contracts of employment of seamen, railroad employees, or any other class of workers engaged in foreign or interstate commerce." "The Federal Arbitration Act ("FAA") does not apply to employment contracts or collective bargaining agreements. That was the holding of a recent ruling by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Craft v. Campbell Soup Co., 1998 U.S. App. LEXIS 30580 (12/2/98)." http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Jan/1/126752.html


I have seen you post this here about the award and it is simply NOT TRUE.

However, this IS TRUE, if anyone reads my previous post it is this simple and it applies to ALL labor unions...change your Collective Bargaining Agent and you change your CONTRACT. The former CBA has NO BUSINESS with the company after that....PERIOD. There IS NO NICOLAU AWARD. It is back to negotiations with the company because labor contracts under RLA are always amenable...PERIOD!! Even the ALPA attorneys verify this.

I know you want to jump in front of every pilot here. I also know your buddy 700UW doesn't understand anything more about unionism than he does about cleaning airplanes. So before you spout off about what you DON"T know about arbitration maybe you could do some homework and SHOW ME the case law where it says NICOLAU is binding???

Everyone....expect AWA320 and 700UW to flame me now. Don't expect any law or legal precedence here. Flaming is what they refer to when they get proven wrong! WATCH!

BTW, we have the finest maintenence in the industry...still.

 

[end_of_alpa]

If any of the EAST pilots are jousting with AWA320, 700UW and the others for fun...have at it. I normally do not post here because facts get torn up too bad. I'm back off again from here to engage in the more important job of USAPA soon to be at hand. But if you hear any talking or posting about this "binding" arbitration thing can you PLEASE earmark my post about this if they ask and refer them to it???

I would appreciate it. See you on the line.

 

[cynic]

A seniority list is not a contract and the mediation was between the two unions so the argument about contracts and CBAs not being subject to binding arbitration appears to be a straw man.

 

[700UW]

I know you want to jump in front of every pilot here. I also know your buddy 700UW doesn't understand anything more about unionism than he does about cleaning airplanes. So before you spout off about what you DON"T know about arbitration maybe you could do some homework and SHOW ME the case law where it says NICOLAU is binding???

Everyone....expect AWA320 and 700UW to flame me now. Don't expect any law or legal precedence here. Flaming is what they refer to when they get proven wrong! WATCH!

BTW, we have the finest maintenence in the industry...still.

You could not be more far off base.

I have served the membership and the IAM as a shop steward with over 10 years of tenure, local lodge trustee, recording secretary, communication postions for the local and district lodges and served on the M&R Negotiating Committee, (the first time ever that someone in my classification was chosen to be on the committee. The IAM was organized in 1949 at US).

I have taken college accredited classes on labor issues, Leadership I, Leadership II, Advanced Leadership, Train the Trainer and numerous other classes at Placid Harbor.

I was trained by the man who organized the IAM at US in 1949 and has negotiated almost every CBA at US. Been trained by numerous Labor Leaders from all across the country including labor lawyers and bankruptcy attornies.

Helped coordinate the strike at my local in 1992.

I have won awards for my work on behalf of the membership and the IAM.

Been to numerous conferences where training and other events occur.

Voluntered my own personal time on numerous occasions to work on behalf of the membership.

Lobbied our Senators and Congressman on behalf of Airline employees, met with Presidential Candidates to further our issues.

Marched on Washington for airline workers after 9/11 on several occasions, marched with the striking Newspaper workers in the big newspaper strike in Detroit, to support their efforts in reaching a contract.

Can you say the same?

I have probably forgotten more than you have ever learned.

Oh by the way, call any labor lawyer, Arbitration is binding and precedent setting, especially under the auspices of the RLA.

And I guess you cant comprehend the word binding in front of arbitration in regard to ALPA's seniority intergration.

By the way, I was a Stock Clerk at US who had Utility time.

And one's job classification has nothing to do with their knowledge nor the ability to represent their members, it is up to the individual to educate themselves to make them the best representative for their members.

Once again, Don't Let the Facts get in your way!

 

[700UW]

WASHINGTON --The outcome of an environmental cleanup dispute now before the Supreme Court could determine the future of arbitration as an alternative to lawsuits.

Tens of thousands of disagreements in the business world are resolved through arbitration each year, a process often regarded by the business community as a cost-saving, time-saving substitute for going to court.

The risk in arbitration is that the losing side cannot appeal to the judiciary except in limited circumstances. That's the subject of Supreme Court arguments on Wednesday.

The Supreme Court will consider whether the parties in arbitration can agree to take their cases to court for review of arbitration awards.

The American Arbitration Association says a cornerstone principle of federal law is that arbitrators' awards are final and binding.

If parties to a dispute are allowed to engage in expanded judicial review, arbitration will become a prelude to lawsuits instead of a substitute, the association said in court papers.

Many industries have an interest in the case, including the wireless communications industry which has filed papers in support of an expanded role for the courts.

The wireless industry says that in the absence of court review, parties may decide they are unwilling to "bet the company" on arbitration. The result would be a decline in the number of disputes sent to arbitration and an added workload for already-overburdened courts.

In the case before the justices, property owner Hall Street Associates L.L.C. wants toymaker Mattel Inc. to pay for cleanup at a contaminated factory site in Beaverton, Ore.

The toy company and the property owner agreed to submit the case to arbitration, signing an agreement allowing either side to seek court review of the decision.

The property that Mattel leased from Hall Street Associates contains high levels of the industrial solvent TCE used to degrease metal parts.

Mattel did not contaminate the grounds with the hazardous chemical and an arbitrator initially ruled the toy manufacturer did not have to pay for the cleanup.

The case then began a six-year odyssey through the federal court system.

A judge said the arbitrator's decision "defies logic." The arbitrator responded by reversing himself and awarding Hall Street $584,000.

This prompted another trip to the courts and ultimately an order by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco to reinstate the original arbitration award in favor of Mattel.

Hall Street asked the Supreme Court to review the case.

The cleanup could prove costly. The chemical has seeped into the soil, well water, groundwater and the deep aquifer underlying the property.

Studies of human populations support the conclusion that TCE is a potential cause of kidney cancer, says a federally financed study by the National Research Council, which operates under the National Academy of Sciences. The council provides science and technology advice under a congressional charter.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You could not be more far off base.

I have served the membership and the IAM as a shop steward with over 10 years of tenure, local lodge trustee, recording secretary, communication postions for the local and district lodges and served on the M&R Negotiating Committee, (the first time ever that someone in my classification was chosen to be on the committee. The IAM was organized in 1949 at US).

I have taken college accredited classes on labor issues, Leadership I, Leadership II, Advanced Leadership, Train the Trainer and numerous other classes at Placid Harbor.

I was trained by the man who organized the IAM at US in 1949 and has negotiated almost every CBA at US. Been trained by numerous Labor Leaders from all across the country including labor lawyers and bankruptcy attornies.

Helped coordinate the strike at my local in 1992.

I have won awards for my work on behalf of the membership and the IAM.

Been to numerous conferences where training and other events occur.

Voluntered my own personal time on numerous occasions to work on behalf of the membership.

Lobbied our Senators and Congressman on behalf of Airline employees, met with Presidential Candidates to further our issues.

Marched on Washington for airline workers after 9/11 on several occasions, marched with the striking Newspaper workers in the big newspaper strike in Detroit, to support their efforts in reaching a contract.

Can you say the same?

I have probably forgotten more than you have ever learned.

Oh by the way, call any labor lawyer, Arbitration is binding and precedent setting, especially under the auspices of the RLA.

And I guess you cant comprehend the word binding in front of arbitration in regard to ALPA's seniority intergration.

By the way, I was a Stock Clerk at US who had Utility time.

And one's job classification has nothing to do with their knowledge nor the ability to represent their members, it is up to the individual to educate themselves to make them the best representative for their members.

Once again, Don't Let the Facts get in your way!

Let me be the first to commend you on you efforts. For once, I read a reasoned and well thought out response and to that I will respond to in kind.

I agree with you regarding the job classification and ones smarts. There is no correlation between the two. If what you saying in your post is true, and I have no reason to doubt that, then you, like myself, are working hard on behalf of ALL laborers to work to the benefit of all, those are commendable facts. If you want to call me a scab that is your choice. There were other bargaining issues where the pilots received no support from the IAM here either. I would know, I was here. But I think we should let these differences drop for now as they can be addressesd later.

Spcecifically, however, If you would have read my posts, there is this "final and binding" issue that is written so let me ask you a few questions.

If you read my last posts about the Federal Arbitration Act, AWA320 quoted that the "forum" is the place for adjudication under the FAA. Is what I posted about the FAA not true and if so, where is it adjudicated. How is the CBA subject to the FAA when the Statute and the 9th Circuit specifically EXCLUDE labor unions. Please read my last main post on this before responding. Labor law is a deep subject. I do a lot of legal work in this area.

By the way, I have been doing this for quite sometime as well, FYI. Thanks for the fair and civil response. Consider yourself avenged!!