AA/TWU/TWA/AMFA

[KCFlyer]

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On 7/27/2003 5:13:02 PM Hopeful wrote:

KC FLYER: What part of getting F%$^ED by the TWU and AA don't you understand?

How much are we supposed to have shoved up or rectums before it's acceptable by your standards?

AA has raped us but at the same time taking care of themselves by continuing their stock options. They have take away sick time, IOD time, vacation time and oh yes $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

A stock option is worth nothing until exercised. But if the company said "Hopeful, RV4, we're going to cut some of your pay but give you the same stock options we get", would you say yes? I believe the words I've seen in the past are "stock options don't put bread on the table". Yet they seem to buy managment folks a new Mercedes.

Oh I'm sorry! According to KC FLYER, AA owes its employees NOTHING!
Please cite for me any of my 1,100 posts where I said anything like that. Happy hunting.

They don't owe us benefits and they don't owe us a decent living. Isn't that right, KC FLYER?

YOu show me where I said that. Happy hunting

You keep referring to labor/management relations! The relationship you dream of exists only between JIM LITTLE and WHOEVER the CEO is at the time.

If management is so powerful, wouldn't you want them on your side? Adversarial relationships tend to keep both parties from trying to come to a win/win situation because they figure the other side is out to screw them. Therefore all initial offers are unattainable and anything else really is put out to see who can screw the other party better. Thorn's in the side can work out to your detriment. IF a union dares try to do anything with management, the shout goes out that the union is in bed with the company and must be voted out.

AA, like the other carriers, have taken advantage of the economy, airline industry and 9/11 to deal a major blow to the unions.

So, travel wasn't down after 9/11? The economy is good these days? Here's a tip - if you ever leave the airline industry, don't go into telecom, tech, or retail as those sectors are sucking as much as airlines.

KCFLYER and those like him are part of the reason the airline industry is in the condition they are in today.
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How so? What have I done to bring this industry down? Bear in mind that of the last several trips I have taken, the airfare I paid always exceeded the cost per mile that it cost the airline to fly me.

THEY WANT TO FLY A $100,000,000.00 AIRCRAFT SEVERAL THOUSAND MILES ALL FOR $99.95! GUARANTEED!
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I wish. Here's a breakdown of my past few flights:
MCI-SAN - $500, MCI-TPA - $359, MCI-DFW - $500, MCI - LAS $300.
Maybe someone else demands that $99 trip...I don't. In fact.... here is a post I put on a consumer website because a guy was bitching that the couldn't find a flight from Dayton Ohio to Honolulu for less than $500:
Before we talk about greed, can we try some simple math? Bear in mind that there are people working to feed their familes and pay their mortgages, and it would help if their companies made a profit. It's about a 9,000 mile round trip,and on the high end, you are willing to pay $500. That comes out to just over five and a half cents per mile. Right now, most every airline that flies to Hawaii has asked their employees for some significant pay concessions, and even after those concessions, the cost to fly their aircraft is about ten cents a mile. So you are willing to pay half of what it costs to operate the flight while considering them greedy when they have to make up the losses on advance fare tickets. FWIW, American has tickets for $1,400 round trip leaving in a week.

I'm all for more of a value pricing model....but I can't blame the airlines for their pricing policies...no, that goes to folks like Clark Howard listeners who want to fly cross country for under a hundred bucks and feel that they are getting ripped off if they have to pay a hundred and ten. Value pricing means that advance purchase tickets would cost a bit more (no more ATL-LAS for $120 round trip), but the last minute fares would drop considerably. Trouble was, the public is now so trained to expect "giveaway" fares that any attempt to implement a new fare structure is shot down. Apparently people feel the airlines are "greedy" when they raise the advance purchase fare.

You mention Amtrack...I would certainly hope they didn't have to raise their fares....I looked into taking a train from Kansas City to Dallas one year as a family "adventure". The cheapest I could find was $1,500 per person. But you're right...it wasn't that much more than their advance fares.
Yep...it's people like me who are responsible for your problems.

KCFLYER, DO YOU SHOP AROUND FOR DOCTORS AND DENTISTS?
As a matter of fact, my dentist just dropped my carrier. So yes indeedy do, I shopped around to find another dentist.

DO YOU NOT SEEK MEDICAL ATTENTION BECAUSE OF MEDICAL FEES UNTIL THEY GIVE YOU A DISCOUNT!

No, but then again, my doctor doesn't offer $99 appendectomies then try to charge someone else $5,000 for the same thing.

Love,
KCFlyer - your management puke.
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[Hopeful]

Do you think Gerald Arpey uses the same medical plan the rest of us get?

 

[KCFlyer]

Hopeful...nice post on the stock options...you cited about 10 employees of AA. Now, considering that AA has about 110,000 employees, it would appear that 109,990 other people are in the same boat that you are in. Yep, it's a shame that upper managment seems to make out so well. But you know, there is a company out there where the CEO was paid $110 million in salary and bonus and laid off a bunch of people in order to save $100 million in costs. Guess he found it hard to live on a mere $10 million a year. Life ain't fair when it comes to those in the executive suites - but guess what...all 10 of those people you cited could give up all their stock options and salary and benefit and you'd STILL be facing what you're facing. Changing a union won't accomplish diddly-squat. It might make you feel better, at least until the layoffs that your union fought for are implemented. Then, if you are one of the unfortunate to be cut loose in the name of "class and craft", then good luck in the real world.

 

[Hopeful]

I don't have to go back in your past posts to see how you feel or what specific things you say. One thing I have that you don't is much experience working for this airline. You have no idea of the financial hardships people are enduring through lost wages. And before you cry me a river about people who are on the street receving nothing, that is no excuse for treating current employees like LIABILITIES. This company has taken advantage of the economic, industry and 9/11 situation and took a gun and pointed it at its employees and said "OR ELSE"

I don't think I have read every post you have ever made here and I got other things to do than study your paper trail.
I do not remember, however, you placing the blame on the management of this company. It can not always be the employyes fault along with his/her wages.

One thing you will learn about this whole debacle is that WHEN AA returns to profitablity, WE THE EMPLOYEES WILL NOT BE SHARING IN IT!

The best we could hope for after this 5 year deal is to have our wages only restored to early 2003 rates in 2008. They now have a taste of less vacation being paid, less sick time, no double time at all!

They have abused their employees by creating a work environment where people feel forced to go to work.

You can't blame them, you can blame the "LEADERS" of this company who you admire so much.

Good day!

 

[Hopeful]

Had I deleted the other members, you would be the first to say I have selectively sought my information.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 7/27/2003 731 PM Hopeful wrote:

Let me give you an example of shared sacrifices. The AA mechanic gave back 17% in hard dollars back to the company. About $14,000 dollars just in cash.

The maintenance supervisor gave back about $4200.00.

By the way, at JFK, they have recently hired 7 supervisors while mechanics are getting bumped and relocated.. Sound fair to you?

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How much overtime do those supervisors get? Any holiday pay ? Oh...that's right...they are "exempt" employees. No overtime...no holiday pay. And giving up $4200 PLUS any overtime can amount to well over $14,000 per year. ANd yes, it really DOES make sense to have more supervisoers than mechanics since they don't have to pay overtime and holiday pay.

 

[Hopeful]

Let me give you an example of shared sacrifices. The AA mechanic gave back 17% in hard dollars back to the company. About $14,000 dollars just in cash.

The maintenance supervisor gave back about $4200.00.

By the way, at JFK, they have recently hired 7 supervisors while mechanics are getting bumped and relocated.. Sound fair to you?

 

[Hopeful]

It makes sense to hire supervisors who can't turn a wrench?
KCFLYER, you win!
You are management through and through!
OVERTIME? WHAT OVERTIME?
If you recall, on 9/21/2001 AA and the TWU agreed to an overtime ban for mechanics!

The $14,000.00 was in hard dollars. Add another $6000.00 for holidays and another weeks vacation, mechanics gave back well over $20,000.00. No supervisor gave that much back. They didn't lose vaction pay! they didn't lose holiday pay because they never had it as management. But hey, they get perks!

 

[RV4]

Here is what some Pilot's are getting in exchange for their stock options!


LIFE on the GROUND
As airlines face uncertain times, pilots are taking their heads out of the clouds and getting down to business
By Trebor Banstetter
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

Tony Schmidt labored for years to land his dream job -- working above the clouds as a pilot for American Airlines.
But after less than two years in the cockpit of an American Fokker 100 jet, the 9-11 attacks and the slumping economy brought him down to earth. With a steep pay cut and a possible layoff looming, Schmidt's focus today is firmly on street level as he starts a new job selling Medicare supplement insurance as an agent for Armor Insurance Services, an agency for Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas.
"I could sit around and do nothing and wait to be furloughed," Schmidt said Wednesday, as he sat in the firm's Grapevine offices. "But doing something like this gives you a measure of control over your income, your time and your personal destiny."
Schmidt, a reserve pilot who expects to be laid off by American under a new concessionary contract reached this year, is hardly alone. He is among thousands of professional pilots who, experts say, are increasingly turning to jobs outside of aviation to weather furloughs or supplement pay cuts.
Pilots are working at insurance companies, real estate offices, schools, retail outlets, and even tending bar as they cope with the downturn in the airline industry, said Cheryl Cage, a consultant who specializes in career development for airline pilots.
It can be a difficult transition for pilots at major airlines, who generally invest years of education, training and work, often at low-paying small carriers, in order to land a job at a big airline like American.
Nationwide, about 10,000 pilots are furloughed, according to Air Inc., an Atlanta-based career consulting firm for pilots. That's nearly 10 percent of the total number of professional pilots in the United States. At Fort Worth-based American, the world's largest airline, the Allied Pilots Association union expects that about 3,000 pilots will eventually be laid off under concessions that were finalized in April.
"We've never seen a furlough like this," said Jim West, an American captain who is on the membership committee of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American's pilots.
Since 9-11, Cage is counseling more pilots to consider jobs outside of aviation. Though most furloughed pilots hope to return to flying, she said, some should consider permanent changes in their careers if they want job stability and security.
It's not an easy decision, Cage said.
"There's no question that thousands of these pilots are at a crossroads right now," she said. "The decisions they make now are going to affect them for years."
It can also be a psychological blow to pilots, who often take great pride in their careers.
"For most of us, piloting isn't just a paycheck; it's a lifestyle," said Kit Darby, a United Airlines pilot who is also president of Air Inc. "You might find that you're really unhappy being out of the cockpit for a few years."
Deep cuts
Furloughed pilots are in professional limbo, with no air routes, no paycheck and very few benefits. But they still retain their seniority at their airline, with the hopes that, eventually, they will be called back to work.
Analysts caution, however, that it could be years before the airline industry resumes hiring in large numbers. Faced with devastating losses and an onslaught of competition from low-fare carriers, the major airlines have been shrinking routes, parking airplanes and slashing labor costs.
Hiring at the nation's 14 largest airlines has fallen nearly 90 percent from its peak in 1999, when the carriers added 5,000 pilots to their payrolls, according to Air Inc.
"There's a real sense of permanence with these furloughs," said Mike Kellerman, an American pilot who is Armor's principal and managing partner. "People are realizing that they're going to be sitting it out for a while."
Incomes are down as well at the major airlines, as carriers negotiate steep concessions with employees. With across-the-board salary reductions and forced transfers to lower-paying assignments, American pilots have taken salary cuts as high as 40 percent, according to the union.
But as they wait on the sidelines, or try to make up for lost income, some pilots are finding that their "Plan B" careers are more fulfilling -- and more lucrative -- than they expected.
"Financially, it's been great," said Terry Higdon, an American pilot who was laid off in the days after 9-11 and now works as a mortgage broker in Jacksonville, Fla. "I'm doing better than I would have if I'd been flying."
And, he adds, "it's been really rewarding when I can help someone with their financial situation, help them with a refinancing, and make their lives a little easier. It's a good feeling."
Difficult choices
Armor Insurance has become something of a landing strip for pilots -- 13 of the agents are American pilots, and eight of those have been furloughed or expect to be laid off this year.
Kellerman, a Boeing 767 first officer, opened the agency in June after working as a Blue Cross agent since the early 1990s. He recruited fellow pilots through a job database sponsored by the pilots' union.
"With pilots, I know I have someone I can count on to get the job done," he said.
Schmidt adds: "We're mission-oriented problem solvers."
The firm's airline connections are evident throughout its offices just off Grapevine's historic Main Street. Airplane models and posters abound, and the large schedule board proclaims various agents "at 767 training," on military deployments and out flying their routes.
"We've gotten quite a few calls from pilots who hear about what we're doing and are interested," said Russ Moore, an American MD-80 pilot who works at Armor and is also the furlough coordinator for the pilots' union.
For pilots at major carriers like American, one of the greatest advantages to working outside of the aviation field is maintaining seniority, Darby said. While some jobs are available at smaller airlines or cargo carriers, many require that pilots resign their seniority -- something that pilots have often worked for years to establish.
Seniority dictates which routes and aircraft a pilot can fly, which also determines how much they will be paid. A high seniority number also lessens the possibility of a layoff in the future.
"It's a huge decision," Darby said. "It immobilizes them in many cases."
In addition, he said, most of the pilot jobs that are currently available pay far less than the major carriers and require longer work hours.
"These can be pretty tough, they're not what a major airlines pilot would consider a good job," he said.
In June, for example, only 12 pilots were hired by the 14 airlines that Air Inc. designates as major carriers. Smaller carriers, such as Mesaba Airlines, Sun Country Airlines, and Trans States Airlines hired a total of 143 pilots during the month, according to the firm. Charter companies, fractional jet owners and other small operators hired an additional 224 pilots.
Many pilots who worked for years at small carriers in order to win a coveted spot at a major airline like American or United simply don't want to go back.
"I don't want to take a second- or third-rate job in aviation," said Higdon, who flew airplanes for Federal Express and several small carriers for 11 years before being hired by American. "I've been there already, and I do have the luxury of being more selective now."
Planning for the worst
Cage, who spent five years as a flight attendant for Braniff before that airline closed, focuses on helping pilots prepare for job interviews at airlines. But increasingly, she said, she's advising them how to find jobs outside the aviation industry.
That can be a tough sell at first, she said, because many pilots can't imagine themselves doing anything else.
"Pilots have to realize that they can come out of a furlough stronger -- both financially and personally," she said. "They don't always see that upfront."
The Tucson, Ariz.-based consultant said that many pilots don't realize they have skills that are valued in other professions. And she tells young pilots that it is crucial to cultivate other talents and interests throughout their career in anticipation of a layoff.
"I tell pilots that the world is different now, and the reality is that at some time in their career, they're going to be furloughed, or their company is going to go bankrupt, or their pay will be cut," she said. "You don't want to have to live in constant fear of that."
Airline unions are also becoming increasingly involved in helping members find nonaviation jobs. The Allied Pilots Association is sponsoring a lecture and workshop by Cage on July 29 that will focus on how to survive and even thrive during a furlough.
The union also operates a database of job leads, many of which are unrelated to the airline business, said West of the union's membership committee.
"It's unfortunate that we have to get into this," he said, "but there's not a lot of flying jobs out there that feed the family."
Schmidt says that even if the industry rebounds and enjoys a period of expansion, he won't forget what he's learned during the crisis of the past two years.
"I plan to stick with this no matter what happens with American," he said. "It's all about peace of mind."

 

[Hopeful]

MCI TRANSPLANT:

You're so bent on attacking me, did you read my post to KC FLYER?

He's the type of mangagement puke who believes companis owe employees NOTHING!

That post had nothing to do with TWAers!

If that's the case that TWAers feel they have nothing left, then they have nothing left to lose!

They should give a final F*&^ing to both AA and TWU by voting AMFA!
I think it's time to stop funding the TWU'S AFFAIT WITH AA MANAGEMENT!

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 7/27/2003 7:58:07 PM Hopeful wrote:

I don't have to go back in your past posts to see how you feel or what specific things you say. One thing I have that you don't is much experience working for this airline. You have no idea of the financial hardships people are enduring through lost wages. And before you cry me a river about people who are on the street receving nothing, that is no excuse for treating current employees like LIABILITIES. This company has taken advantage of the economic, industry and 9/11 situation and took a gun and pointed it at its employees and said "OR ELSE"
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All I have ever said is that it isn't just the airlines who are going thru all this. And I DO have an idea of the finacial hardships people are going thru. The biggest employer in Kansas City is named Sprint. They have laid off about 17,000 people, many of them my friends...one of them was laid off the week of Christmas...no severance. Yet their CEO was fired and STILL given a $5 million dollar severance package. And for the past 10 years, they have treated their employees as liabilities....that's one big reason I left them. AA is absolutely no different than that. Sorry to burst your "Woe is me but I'm still being paid" bubble.

I don't think I have read every post you have ever made here and I got other things to do than study your paper trail.
I do not remember, however, you placing the blame on the management of this company. It can not always be the employyes fault along with his/her wages.

You need to look then before making blanket statements about what I am and what I believe in. I have had MANY posts about the revenue side (something managment has a big hand in). I have made MANY posts about the management of other airlines boneheaded decisions to start up "airlines within an airline". But it's too much trouble to look that up, so you just say I am "anti-labor" and a managment suck up and your done with it. I am perhaps more evenly balanced on these issues than someone who is in the industry...I don't have a personal stake in it and can afford to be objective, althoug objectivity isn't something many people want to hear.

One thing you will learn about this whole debacle is that WHEN AA returns to profitablity, WE THE EMPLOYEES WILL NOT BE SHARING IN IT!

Will your beloved AMFA enter into "snap back" talks that ties any managment givebacks to labor? That's what I've proposed for a couple of years now....if managment gets a raise, then so does labor. Funny thing is, most pro labor guys come back with "managment cooks the books" or "managment is rich enough already...they won't take a raise and just screw us." And that's pure bullxxxx. You show me one guy in managment, regardless of what he makes, who won't look for greener pastures if he doesn't get a raise. It's human nature. YOur union reps should demand whatever mangment gets...if it's stock, labor gets stock. If it's a raise, labor gets a raise. If it's a one time bonus...labor gets a one time bonus.

The best we could hope for after this 5 year deal is to have our wages only restored to early 2003 rates in 2008. They now have a taste of less vacation being paid, less sick time, no double time at all!

That's negative thinking.

They have abused their employees by creating a work environment where people feel forced to go to work.

There is no job where you are "forced" to go to work. If it is that bad, leave. That is the ultimate statement to management.

You can't blame them, you can blame the "LEADERS" of this company who you admire so much.

While you're looking for my posts saying you're paid too much, maybe you can find one where I admire most any airline management. Just one (and don't include Southwest). In fact, I believe I have said that some teenagers on Airliners.net could do a better job than some airline managment is doing. As far as AA...IMHO, you guys were looking for flaws in Arpey they day that Carty stepped down.

Good day!

It has been...yours?
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[Hopeful]

By the way, I never wanted stock from this company. All I wanted was my pay and benefits to be maintained. I have not bought any stock amid the frenzy.

I'm amazed that you still find it in your heart to defend AA after witnessing the treatment of the TWA people. Maybe you'll sing a different tune when AA shuts down MCI overhaul base and the economy suffers more there.

 

[KCFlyer]

DAmn....you dodge about as good as RV4 - what about my comments to other boards about those who demand $99 fares?????? What about those posts your supposed to be finding where I said you guys were paid too much? ANy luck finding those??????? Didn't think so.

 

[Hopeful]

You are they type of customer because you don't care who repairs your aircraft or how much they get paid. This is an industry that goes after labor and wages so they can have their speciAAl fAAres!

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 7/27/2003 7:42:49 PM Hopeful wrote:

You are they type of customer because you don't care who repairs your aircraft or how much they get paid. This is an industry that goes after labor and wages so they can have their speciAAl fAAres!

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You didn't even read my post to the other web site, did you Hopeful....If you did, you would see that I used words and phrases like
"Bear in mind that there are people working to feed their familes and pay their mortgages, and it would help if their companies made a profit. It's about a 9,000 mile round trip,and on the high end, you are willing to pay $500. That comes out to just over five and a half cents per mile. Right now, most every airline that flies to Hawaii has asked their employees for some significant pay concessions, and even after those concessions, the cost to fly their aircraft is about ten cents a mile"
And you still post that I demand these giveaway fares. You lump me in with a group of people that I most definitly disagree with.. YOu know...if you even bothered to read something before you post...If you even bothered to see what my stance on some of these issues are, you might find that you are more in agreement with me than you care to admit. But....that'd be like kowtowing to management, so you can't have any of that. Tell me...what in the above italicized quote do you disagree with. What part of that shows that I don't give a damn about mechanics, pilots, agents, or any other airline employees. Just that one paragraph...tell me where we disagree.