AA should buy ALASKA Air !

[777 fixer]

<_< ---- aa, the Ozark deal is past history! I rarely even think about it because it was done right, above board, and without any legal maneuvering for the purpose to defraud!

There seem to be some former Ozark pilots who would not agree with you.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

"Beauty",

For almost 30 years now(the last 25 with AA), I listened to YOU and others predicting how AA will find themselves in a "hole" that they CANNOT escape !!

And for ALL of those years, I've watched AA "dodge" Bullet..after..Bullet..after..Bullet !!

Is AA any "BETTER" than other carriers....NO !

Are they LUCKIER than other Carriers....YES

Are they SMARTER than other carriers...ABSOLUTELY YES,

So my suggestion to you is, that you NOT hold your breath, until AA finds themself in a hole, that they can't escape !!

History does'nt lie

it IS, what it IS

NH/BB's

Well - i wont talk about holes on here - first off you cant dodge a pension payment or for that matter payments - If you do dodge it will be with BK.... Don't forget --- FACT for FAMIKEY- per your other employee poster it is 2.6 billion in back payments and that doesnt include the payments that are due over the next 10 years... Unfortunately the other airlines wont have to make payments as large as the AA payments - putting them at a huge advantage (sadly)... I dont wish you demise - for i have MANY friends that work at AA... However if you look into the future it will tell you exactly why AA is going to be threatning their work groups for some more cuts - Of course the pilots will give the shirts off their backs and the MGMT. team will still do what they planned to do in the first place --- It is a very big psychological game. Well I am off of here - I have to go and order my crewmeal for my transcon tomorrow. Chows and Poodles and the best of luck.... We will ALL need it...

 

[777 fixer]

<_< ---- The TWA/aa deal on the other hand was a deception from the vary begining! TWA was purposely taken into bankruptcy to: 1) Get reed of Carl Ichan and his company that were selling TWA tickets at a discounted rate! 2) To shed as much of TWA's debt as possible! 3) To Drive TWA stock to zero! At the time, TWA employees were the single largest block of stock holders! 4) To position itself to easily get reed of a maxim number of TWA employees after the buyout by stripping the "Scope" clauses from the Unions contracts! I don't believe for a minute that aa ever intended to obsorbe TWA's employees! But could not get the required government approvals unless it appeared to do so!

And could you please tell us how much cash on hand TWA had in 2001 and it's financial obligations that were coming due.

 

[777 fixer]

Another question? Whenever you refer to the TWA deal, you refer to it as a buyout! But when you talk about the TWA/Ozark deal, it's all of a sudden a "merger?" Now, why's that????

Could you point out to me where I have done so.

You are so spewing junk - your point is??? nothing!!! You didnt listen to what i said - your pension payments will be due - no one elses will - and what does that equal - T-R-O-U-B-L-E - dont get your panties all fluffed thinking about it though it is a couple of years away, but when it comes either your pension will go or AA will be BROKE.... Those are rather large payments they must make - AHHHH the points i could make - but of course you cant understand them - so i wont waste my typing on you... NEXT!!!

Since you seem to be so knowlegable about the airline industry why don't you tell us how many airlines have entered the BK process and were still around fifteen years latter.

I dont think CAL will feel the burn as bad as AA but in my opinion AA will be salivating at getting in on the merger mania getting ready to take place - and they shutter at the thought of being kicked to number 3 airline... And it will falter from there.. It should be interesting... You know what they say... what goes around comes around....

And you base this opinion on what? It can't be becasue of some insider knowledge. IMO the best thing that could happen to AA is for the other carriers to start merging. If it means AA is the second of third largest carrier so what.

 

[MCI transplant]

And could you please tell us how much cash on hand TWA had in 2001 and it's financial obligations that were coming due.

<_< Fixer,---- I don't clam to have all the answers! All I can tell you is what I heard at the time. Now if you except that or not is your problem! ------But to answer your question about that note. Yes it was due, but from what I've heard is that the note could have been renegotiated. In fact, the TWA Union's were negotiating with TWA's main Creditors, Boeing, Pratt, etc., to buy TWA and use MCI overhaul base as it's main warranty MRO base.(Boeing's idea!)Same scenario that aa now is bidding on! Except, now Boeing is thinking on a much larger scale. This "Golden maintenance program" idea of Boeing is a direct descendant of the earlier talks with the former TWA Unions! At the time Boeing wanted their own people in charge!( Surprise! Surprise!) Which meant they wanted Compton, and the currant board out! Compton allegedly got wind of it and accelerated his dealings with Carty! Assuring his Golden Parachute! The rest is history!---- As to how much we had on hand at the time, I heard $137 mil.--But then again, that's what they admitted to!-- Now! Believe what you want! Your going to anyway! Could we have renegotiated that note? We'll never know now will we???

 

[AMFAMAN]

In fact, the TWA Union's were negotiating with TWA's main Creditors, Boeing, Pratt, etc., to buy TWA and use MCI overhaul base as it's main warranty MRO base.(Boeing's idea!)

The part I will never understand is why the TWA unions would voluntarily waive their merger protection without even a membership vote, especially if the Boeing deal was in the works. Follow this up with the iam not filing for a runoff election at the single carrier ruling makes you think how big the payoff were.

BTW...This should make you wonder, 5 years after the merger and these guys still need positive space tickets.

Scroll down to pages 29 & 30.

http://www.dol-esa.gov/sr_lookup/pdf/lm10/..._12_31_2005.pdf

 

[FA Mikey]

Well - i wont talk about holes on here - first off you cant dodge a pension payment or for that matter payments - If you do dodge it will be with BK.... Don't forget --- FACT for FAMIKEY- per your other employee poster it is 2.6 billion in back payments and that doesnt include the payments that are due over the next 10 years...

All the rants, about all you know, the best you can come up for a fact is something from a previous poster.

Unfortunately the other airlines wont have to make payments as large as the AA payments - putting them at a huge advantage (sadly)... I dont wish you demise - for i have MANY friends that work at AA... However if you look into the future it will tell you exactly why AA is going to be threatning their work groups for some more cuts -

Oh great one,tell us why AA is going to ask for more cuts?

Here are some fun facts for you. A DB plan is less costly over time than a DC plan. AA pays less in pension and retirement costs than SWA. AA had from the start the smallest % underfunding of all the carriers. AA has from the begining and continues to make all its pension obligation payments. Last year was close to 300,000,000.

Of course the pilots will give the shirts off their backs and the MGMT. team will still do what they planned to do in the first place --- It is a very big psychological game.

Guess we will just have to wait and see how it play out with our pilots. The APA has not been as big a push over as the ALPA.

 

[kirkpatrick]

The part I will never understand is why the TWA unions would voluntarily waive their merger protection without even a membership vote

The key word here is "voluntarily." All three unions went right to the wire over the scope issue. They were "voluntarily" waived when we were told point blank that if we didn't agree, the judge would do one of two things: one, throw out the scope clauses anyway, or two, throw out the contracts in their entirety, leaving us going into the acquisition with no contracts at all until we were absorbed by AA's unions.

MK

 

[MCI transplant]

The part I will never understand is why the TWA unions would voluntarily waive their merger protection without even a membership vote, especially if the Boeing deal was in the works. Follow this up with the iam not filing for a runoff election at the single carrier ruling makes you think how big the payoff were.

BTW...This should make you wonder, 5 years after the merger and these guys still need positive space tickets.

Scroll down to pages 29 & 30.

http://www.dol-esa.gov/sr_lookup/pdf/lm10/..._12_31_2005.pdf

------ Well that old Bastard! Somehow it don't surprise me!!!!

 

[Ifly2]

There seem to be some former Ozark pilots who would not agree with you.

Undoubtedly.

I was not there...but I have about heard it all, I think.

The thumbnail...


The OZ pilots did get DOH.

OZ pilots did get to remain in thier CA seats well out of seniority

There was no 'flush' attributable to the merger agreement

OZ pilots did have access to F/O seats on WB a/c, IAW their DOH seniority

On the other hand...

ALPA merger policy was not followed to its normal conclusion, arbitration. This because the OZ pilots signed the merger agreement. They did this due to Icahn's coercion. (Furloughs from the OZ side, and the promise of more...until they were all gone...the provervial gun to thier collective heads...)

OZ pilots were restricted from Captain seats on WB aircraft for varying periods of time...Of course OZ had no WB a/c at all...and whatever WB seats they did occupy, original TW pilots would claim 'belonged' to "them".

OZ Captains, being junior by DOH, were the first CA's displaced during the contraction (bloodbath) of 1991/92, and had to wait for their DOH seniority to mature in order to regain the left seat.

OZ pilots did have the misfortune of having their industry leading DC9 contract replaced with TW's "Icahn I and II" concessionary agreements. Thus great paycut and hardship.

FWIW,

 

[777 fixer]

Undoubtedly.

I was not there...but I have about heard it all, I think.

The thumbnail...
The OZ pilots did get DOH.

OZ pilots did get to remain in thier CA seats well out of seniority

There was no 'flush' attributable to the merger agreement

OZ pilots did have access to F/O seats on WB a/c, IAW their DOH seniority

On the other hand...

ALPA merger policy was not followed to its normal conclusion, arbitration. This because the OZ pilots signed the merger agreement. They did this due to Icahn's coercion. (Furloughs from the OZ side, and the promise of more...until they were all gone...the provervial gun to thier collective heads...)

OZ pilots were restricted from Captain seats on WB aircraft for varying periods of time...Of course OZ had no WB a/c at all...and whatever WB seats they did occupy, original TW pilots would claim 'belonged' to "them".

OZ Captains, being junior by DOH, were the first CA's displaced during the contraction (bloodbath) of 1991/92, and had to wait for their DOH seniority to mature in order to regain the left seat.

OZ pilots did have the misfortune of having their industry leading DC9 contract replaced with TW's "Icahn I and II" concessionary agreements. Thus great paycut and hardship.

FWIW,

< http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newmectoda...2/merge1200.pdf >

 

[MCI transplant]

The part I will never understand is why the TWA unions would voluntarily waive their merger protection without even a membership vote, especially if the Boeing deal was in the works. Follow this up with the iam not filing for a runoff election at the single carrier ruling makes you think how big the payoff were.

BTW...This should make you wonder, 5 years after the merger and these guys still need positive space tickets.

Scroll down to pages 29 & 30.

http://www.dol-esa.gov/sr_lookup/pdf/lm10/..._12_31_2005.pdf

AMFAMAN----The Boeing talks were just before Compton took TWA into Chapt.11. As soon as Boeing became aware of what was going on with Compton and Carty, they backed off!!! As for a vote? I never did understand that either!

 

[glasspilot]

One, why don't we ask the former Ozark pilots about their feelings on the TWA/Ozark merger.

For the millionth time: All of the TWA (including Ozark) pilots will take the TWA/Ozark deal right now, to replace supplement CC! Agreed? <_<

 

[aafsc]

For the millionth time: All of the TWA (including Ozark) pilots will take the TWA/Ozark deal right now, to replace supplement CC! Agreed? <_<

On another website, pilots from twa and Ozark were arguing about the AA/twa pilot integration agreement. Some (I beleive former OZ) were saying that the result of the AA/twa pilot integration was the same as the twa/OZ pilot integration. In fact, they said that the APA used the same lawyer that the Ozark pilots had. Like the twaers always say, "what comes around goes around" and this is exactly what happened to the twa pilots.

 

[Ifly2]

Some (I beleive former OZ) were saying that the result of the AA/twa pilot integration was the same as the twa/OZ pilot integration.

...Some (I beleive former OZ) were saying that the result of the AA/twa pilot integration was the same as the twa/OZ pilot integration.

"Some" saying it doesn't make it so. There are "some" ex oz pilots who like to claim they were stapled. They were not. They did get DOH.

If aa/TW had been done by DOH, even with restrictions and fences semiliar to oz/TW, (which were lopsided...in both directions, but worse for the OZ pilots...), there would be somewhere near 1000 former TW pilots still flying for aa who are now furloughed, hundreds of those still flying Captain, some in bases other than STL, and other things.

That 1000 number is a guess/wag/estimation...but it is in the ballpark.

Put another way, around '91/92, TW/oz shrunk approx the same percentage as aa/TW has since 9-11. No former oz pilots were furloughed during that "contraction". (that's none, zero, nada...) ~75% of the former TW pilots have been furloughed since 9-11.

It is not meant to start a class war...or to rehash the integration, so just don't go there. It is to show the comment that "the result of the AA/twa pilot integration was the same as the twa/OZ pilot integration" as the lie that it is.

That statement is simply not true.

The results are not the same.

As far as "what goes around comes around", maybe. Ironic, however, that not one of the TW pilots responsible for the make-up of the TW/oz integration was anywhere near the property in 2001.

cheers