Aa Slow Death

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

MCI Transplant;
I Just got done watching the KC Chiefs/NE Patriots monday nite game.

Do you care to comment on the game ?????? :down:

NH/BB's

 

[aafsc]

<_< Man you are sick! First off there are no where near 6,000! At this time, before this latest R.I.F., I don't think there are 4,000! There were Aprox. 22,000 on 4/10/01!!Where did they all go???? And yes we have 100% here at MCIe, and STL! So what do'es a.a. do about that? Simple! Get reed for STL, and MCIe! End of problem!!! So you have 15 years with a.a.! And you feel we all were going to get on chartered school bus, and come on down to TUL, or AFW and "Steal" your jobs???? If you had a brain in your head, and just by looking at our Seniority you would have known better! First, I'm working with people with more than 40 years Senority! I have 30+ years! Ways that? Because we were screwed out of our retirement by Carl Icahn and our Management before him! Bottom line, we can't afford to retire! But that's water under the bridge! We all have friends and family, homes, and lives here! In two, years, if this place is still here! (Which is a BIG if!) the average senority here will be drasticaly reduced! You talk about "Fair"! But in your mind, "Fair" is all one sided!! "Fair" is a relative thing! It can mean diferant things to diferant people! But what is "Right!" and what is "Wrong!" is pretty cut and dry! And what a.a., and it's Unions, have done to the ex- TWA employees is just plan "WRONG!!!!!" :down:

[post="203116"][/post]​

I will tell you where I got the 6,000 figure from to prove to you I am not "sick". According to the latest seniority lists there are about 3,300 TWu represented people (mechanics, ramp, dispatchers,techs, etc) who were TW. There are about 900 agents who were TW. There are about 600 pilots (in addition to the 400 that retired) that were TW, this is according to a TW pilot. 3300+900+600=4800. Plus I'm estimating 1200 managerial, specialist, non-union, and clerrical support. 4800+1200=6000. Thats how I got my number.
You make it sound as though only TW people are getting laid off. How may did they lay off between MCI and STL? 300 you said. FYI, there have been many AA laid off and many more to come. Today I was told that I, along with many other AA people are getting furloughed (with 15 years at AA). AS far as you getting screwed by Icahn at TW. I was screwed by Lorenzo at EA. And when AA bought EAL's latin American assets in bankruptcy (the same way AA bought TWA's assets in bankruptcy) the EAL people had to start over at the BOTTOM of the PAY and SENIORITY lists. So I think it is safe to say that EAL people were screwed much harder than the TW people. So what happened to the EAL people was just plain wrong.

 

[aafsc]

I have to agree that you are ONE SICK DUDE! Your philosophy of "what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine" is SICK. Oh, so it is okay for you to take the TWA routes, TWA planes, etc. You demonstrate a "ME< ME< ME" attitude dude - get a grip!

If you think the TWA people got such a great deal - I wish the same will happen to you when the time comes that someone takes AA. Just wait it will happen. Everything AA is doing now is follow the same procedure that all airlines followed previously. It may be 10-15 years - but it will happen. At that time you may also be up there in years and have some new dude work while you are out being retrained, and can't get insurance because of a previous condition.

[post="203130"][/post]​

You are the ones with the me me me attitude. The statements made by ramp people about using their high TW senioity to go to the best AA cities that TW did not even fly to. About TW pilots talking about flying the 777 when the biggest aircraft TW had was the 767. If these statements don't show the me me me attitude then what does? What is mine is AFW, TUL, and the AA hubs. What is yours is STL and MCI. As far as routes, what routes does AA fly now that were TWA's? Lets see, a handful of routes out of STL, and one seasonal route from JFK-FCO. Thats it. As far as the same thing happening to me, it already has, I was at Eastern Airlines. And it happened again today, I'm getting laid off so I hope this gives you some satisfaction.

 

[Drippy Quill]

Sorry to hear of your, or anyone else's , furlough. Aren't you a protected employee with 15 years seniority? Are you hitting the streets?, if so...good luck!

So American bought EAL and it's employees as they did TWA? Interesting. I was under the assumption that the boys at EAL had struck the airline, putting the airline into BK, and then dissolved through the courts. Please clarify, good chance I'm wrong on this one.

 

[Bob Owens]

Sorry to hear of your, or anyone else's , furlough. Aren't you a protected employee with 15 years seniority? Are you hitting the streets?, if so...good luck!

So American bought EAL and it's employees as they did TWA? Interesting. I was under the assumption that the boys at EAL had struck the airline, putting the airline into BK, and then dissolved through the courts. Please clarify, good chance I'm wrong on this one.

[post="203345"][/post]​

I believe that AA flys more ex-EAL routes than they do routes that they aquired from the 2001 TWA buyout. AA is raking in the money from the Caribbean, most of which was EALs.

Are you saying that the EAL guys did the wrong thing from a union point of view? That they should have given the company every concession they asked for like you did?

The fact is every worker owes the EAL guys for what they did, at the very least they deserve our respect.

Your statement just proves what a company man you are.

 

[jsn25911]

I believe that AA flys more ex-EAL routes than they do routes that they aquired from the 2001 TWA buyout. AA is raking in the money from the Caribbean, most of which was EALs.

Are you saying that the EAL guys did the wrong thing from a union point of view? That they should have given the company every concession they asked for like you did?

The fact is every worker owes the EAL guys for what they did, at the very least they deserve our respect.

Your statement just proves what a company man you are.

[post="203374"][/post]​

Bob - I believe the question was "DID AA PURCHASE EAL?". Many airlines fly the EAL routes.

 

[firstamendment]

Lord, what did I start? 🙁

 

[local 12 proud]

<_< Hey proud! How old are you? From your post it sounds like your, maybe twenty three? Yes, we have our nesteggs! Our second jobs! If you had your pay frozen for eight years, maybe that nestegg wouldn't be as big as it would normaly be! What would you know of that? But I'm not the one bitching here! I've had 30+ years at TWA/a.a.! And yes! There are those a lot worse off than us!My beef is with those smug @#$% that don't realize that the ex-TWA people, to date, have been insulting "them" from going out on the street themselfs! When I see a man with 15-18 years, go out the door! Knowing there's some kid in TUL with 5 still working! That my friend is not right!!!!AMFA/TWU/IAM, not right!!!! :down:

[post="203232"][/post]​

MCI first off I would just like to say I miss those younger years when I was 23, ive now accrued 20+ years in aviation and had I known then what I know now my carreer path would not have been aviation though like most in this field i was hooked the first time i remember looking up and seeing that man made bird leaving a contrail! I also learned early on not to put all my eggs in one basket and seeing my father struggle his entire life without ever being able to retire before his passing made me more astute to the way the real world works. i have been with AA since "91" went thru a layoff in "93" while i watched our 727's being farmed out to delta and massive amounts of O.T. worked by my "union brothers" while i was on the street with 900 other amt's. i can assure you if i get my layoff notice tomorrow that i will not lose my house, my sanity, nor my dignity. ive have been planning for that day for some time now. the TWU see's you as a dues contributor and the company see's you as a number, which is worse? life is'nt always fair and we all get a curve ball from time to time, make the most of your life because my friend we all only get one!..............good luck!

 

[aafsc]

Sorry to hear of your, or anyone else's , furlough. Aren't you a protected employee with 15 years seniority? Are you hitting the streets?, if so...good luck!

So American bought EAL and it's employees as they did TWA? Interesting. I was under the assumption that the boys at EAL had struck the airline, putting the airline into BK, and then dissolved through the courts. Please clarify, good chance I'm wrong on this one.

[post="203345"][/post]​

To answer your question, I do have protection but it is only part time protection (because I was part time at the time). When I get my packet, it will show where I can go. The choices are almost always the least desirable cities because the cost to live there is very high. As far as EAL, you are correct. The strike occurred, EA filed for bankruptcy and sold Latin America to AA as it liquidated. AA hired all of EAL's South American employees and they kept their full seniority and pay. As far as the MIA hub goes, that was our work, just like the South Americans in their cities. But we all know that MIA's EAL employees had to start over at the bottom of the seniority and pay rosters at AA. With regards to TWA, AA did the exact same thing as they did with EAL, they purchased selected TWA assets while it was in bankruptcy being liquidated.

 

[eolesen]

I believe that AA flys more ex-EAL routes than they do routes that they aquired from the 2001 TWA buyout. AA is raking in the money from the Caribbean, most of which was EALs.

[post="203374"][/post]​

If you'd said makes more money, you'd probably be correct, but your statements have a few false assumptions...

If you look at the TWA dea, today there are 58 markets from STL that didn't exist in 2000. That doesn't include markets like HNL and LGW that were killed off.

The deal with Eastern only involved about 20 markets to Central and South America plus LGW, and just about all of them still carry the same 900-999 series flight numbers that they had when we picked up the routes. Caribbean routes weren't part of the deal because they weren't necessary.

Many of the Caribbean markets served today from MIA were shifted from SJU after the EAL deal, and all except for perhaps GCM were also served from JFK.

You also give a bit too much credit to Eastern in developing those markets -- all of those markets were originally Braniff routes, served from MIA up until 1982.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob - I believe the question was "DID AA PURCHASE EAL?". Many airlines fly the EAL routes.

[post="203378"][/post]​

True, and I bet that none of them, or their unions, saw fit to grant the EAL guys seniority. Thats what his issue is, that he was not given his full seniority at TWU/AA for his years of service at IAM/TWA.

Should AA honor UAL frequent flyer miles?

 

[Bob Owens]

If you'd said makes more money, you'd probably be correct, but your statements have a few false assumptions...

If you look at the TWA dea, today there are 58 markets from STL that didn't exist in 2000. That doesn't include markets like HNL and LGW that were killed off.

The deal with Eastern only involved about 20 markets to Central and South America plus LGW, and just about all of them still carry the same 900-999 series flight numbers that they had when we picked up the routes. Caribbean routes weren't part of the deal because they weren't necessary.

Ok fair enough, but in addtion to the 20 markets, AA also gained a larger market share in those places where EAL was the competitor right?

Many of the Caribbean markets served today from MIA were shifted from SJU after the EAL deal, and all except for perhaps GCM were also served from JFK.

You also give a bit too much credit to Eastern in developing those markets -- all of those markets were originally Braniff routes, served from MIA up until 1982.

I dont recall giving EAL credit for developing them. I was only pointing out that AA profited from EALs demise. Those TWA people who are still sore over the seniority issue, (and show me one example where two union workforces were combined where somebody wasnt claimming to have been screwed), keep insisting that the workers who were at AA prior to the aquisition, somehow owe them something. Some feel that AA workers should be willing to step aside and let them take their jobs. TWA owned those routes and assetts, not the workers of TWA. I, and most of the others I know did not want the company to buy TWA. however we dont own the company either, so it was not our decision.

[post="203427"][/post]​

 

[aafsc]

Bob - I believe the question was "DID AA PURCHASE EAL?". Many airlines fly the EAL routes.

[post="203378"][/post]​

No, AA did not purchase EAL. And what a lot of people don't realize is that AA did not purchase TWA. In my above post I tried to illustrate how the scenarios of EAL and TWA are the same. They were both asset purchases. In EAL's case AA bought the route authorities and only the route authorities to Latin America. Then they negotiated new leases with Dade County for the gates at MIA. In TWA's case AA bought certain assests (a handful of owned older aircraft, the gates and slots at JFK, LGA, DCA, and ORD, and Worldspan, which was used as collateral for DIP financing). Then AA negotiated new leases for the TWA's leased aircraft, the MCI facility, and STL. And of course, AA renegotiated the union contracts where the TWA people were brought up to our payscales but their labor protective provisions were deleted. AA then transferred these renegotiated items into TWA Airlines, llc a subsidiary of AA. When the transaction was finished, TWA Inc. was a shell company which consisted of cash and obligations to it's creditors. TWA Inc. then distributed this cash to it's creditors then it ceased to exist. Now if AA had bought TWA by buying it's stock then AA would have to have paid all of TWA's debts (Karabu Icahn agreement, TLV employees severance, the extremely high lease payments TWA was paying for aircraft, and of course the union contracts, which means you would have had full seniority everywhere). I hope this explains (from a legal and financial perspective) how this transaction transpired. As far as many airlines flying the EAL routes, UA purchased Pan Am's Latin American route authorities then subsequently stopped flying almost all of them (did not want to compete with AA). Delta and Continental fly to some Latin destinations, but these were new authorities awarded long after AA's purchase of EAL's Latin authorities. EAL's route authorities were pretty much restricted access (like LHR or NRT) on the West coast of South America. This gave AA time to grow and dominate Latin America and the Caribbean where it has been and continues to be very profitable for AA.

 

[aafsc]

If you'd said makes more money, you'd probably be correct, but your statements have a few false assumptions...

If you look at the TWA dea, today there are 58 markets from STL that didn't exist in 2000. That doesn't include markets like HNL and LGW that were killed off.

The deal with Eastern only involved about 20 markets to Central and South America plus LGW, and just about all of them still carry the same 900-999 series flight numbers that they had when we picked up the routes. Caribbean routes weren't part of the deal because they weren't necessary.

Many of the Caribbean markets served today from MIA were shifted from SJU after the EAL deal, and all except for perhaps GCM were also served from JFK.

You also give a bit too much credit to Eastern in developing those markets -- all of those markets were originally Braniff routes, served from MIA up until 1982.

[post="203427"][/post]​

When EAL flew the South American routes, they flew them as milk runs I can clearly remeber this. They flew them like MIA-PTY-LIMA-SCL-EZE. EAL did not have many aircraft dedicated to South America. When AA took over , they decided to fly non stop to almost all the South American cities (MIA=PTY, MIA-SCL, MIA-CLO) and they did this on a daily basis. When they saw they were filling the airplanes, management put a second, a third, and a fourth flight on the routes and they filled them up. AA dedicated a lot of aircraft to Latin America, unlike EAL. I give AA management credit for the way they have exploited the opportunites in South America. Unfortunately EAL management never thought of doing it this way, they couldn't sell a banana to a monkey.

 

[jsn25911]

True, and I bet that none of them, or their unions, saw fit to grant the EAL guys seniority. Thats what his issue is, that he was not given his full seniority at TWU/AA for his years of service at IAM/TWA.

Should AA honor UAL frequent flyer miles?

[post="203437"][/post]​

Bob - The truth is that AA DID NOT PURCHASE EAL - if they had then we would be discussing that seniority should come with their routes, planes, bases. Since AA did not purchase EAL that is not even a option at this time. AA purchased TWA!