AA should buy ALASKA Air !

[MCI transplant]

When are you and others going to get it thru your thick skull that the AA unions BY LAW had to protect their members. You were not members at the time so AA's unions owed you NO duty of representation. Ramp and mechanics went to binding arbitration and that still isn't good enough for you. AA fufilled it's promise and hired the twa people like they said they would. Most were furloughed 2 years later because the industry tanked and the twaers were not at the top of the combined lists. Interestingly, the only group of twaers that got their twa seniority was management, the only group where AA management could dictate seniority. Hmmmm. Of course seniority in management means nothing. AA has furloughed nAAtive management people while keeping the managers from twa.

<_< ----O.K. aa!---- "AA's unions BY LAW had to protect their members at the time"---- Oh! What "LAW" are you alluding to? And what is your defition of "protect?" ---"owed you NO duty of representation."--- That all depends on what time frame your refurring to!----" Ramp and mechanics went to binding arbitration and that isn't good enough for you."----- I don't have a problem with it! It seems aa and the union have a problem implementing what was arbitrated!!! Two Laws suits are case in point!---- As for TWA management Seniority, let me quite you! "Of course seniority in management means nothing."

 

[aafsc]

<_< ----O.K. aa!---- "AA's unions BY LAW had to protect their members at the time"---- Oh! What LAW are you alluding to?---"owed you NO duty of representation."--- That all depends on what time frame your refurring to!----" Ramp and mechanics went to binding arbitration and that isn't good enough for you."----- I don't have a problem with it! It seems aa and the union have a problem implementing what was arbitrated!!! Two Laws suits are case in point!---- As for TWA management Seniority, let me quite you! "Of course seniority in management means nothing."

If you can't understand the concept law of duty of fair representation; that the AA unions could not have legally acted in the best interests of the twaers at the expense of the nAAtives while the twaers were still legally represented by their unions at twa, then there is no hope for you. Once the NMB certified the AA unions as your bargaining representatives, then the AA unions have to represent you; not beforehand. As for the lawsuits, anyone can file one, including nAAtives. As far as management, they DO bid shifts and days off by seniority; although a higher manager can alter their shifts and days off, as well as terminate employment, at will regardless of how long they have been at AA.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Yes it is true that there would be a runoff. If the amfa does not petition a request then the TWU would represent everybody in that work group. AMFA would concede just like the IAM did with the TWA merger. Same goes for TWU in this case. Also note that in a runoff a third union can be on the ballot if they petition the NMB. I do not know the exact rules governing this but I know that if there was a runoff the IAM or IBT could petition and be on the ballot.

For one, there would be an election between the twu and AMFA, as you only need 35% of the cards to have one including the currently AMFA represented Alaska AMT's. 35% would happen overnight at AA alone and the twu would be ousted.

An iam or ibt would need 50%+1 of the cards to be on the ballot per the new NMB rules, a tall order indeed. This was changed 1 day prior to the TWA/AA merger in Jan 2001.

Interestingly enough, the iam had the 35% needed after the merger with TWA, but never filed for an election for the M&R workgroup. This was proven in 2004 with the AMFA/twu filing.

In no way, shape, or form do I see AMFA conceding anything to the twu, so if this thread were to come true, expect an election.

 

[777 fixer]

<_< --- No Fixxer ! Ask their Mechanics! They got DOH!!!! So what's your point?

My point, people love talk about the AA/TWA merger and how that turned out. However when you point out that a work group got short end of the stick in the TWA/Ozark merger they go silent.

 

[MCI transplant]

My point, people love talk about the AA/TWA merger and how that turned out. However when you point out that a work group got short end of the stick in the TWA/Ozark merger they go silent.

<_< ----TWA/Ozzark merger? Silent? I'm not "Silent!" Ozzrak Mechanic and related were "DOVE TAILED!!" I'll repet that "DOVE TAILED!!!!! 😉

 

[777 fixer]

777 fixer,

Your correct that M/A's are difficult.

AS's pilots would get a ratio.
(sadly) AS's F/A's would get the staple gun.
The AMT's would partition for a representative election(A perfect time to JETTISON twu, and AMFA....(think) IBT or (yuk) IAM.
Agents would stay non-union, and the FCS's would(sadly) stay TWU !

It's a bigger headache than you realize. You give the AS piltos a ratio. Where do the ex-TWA, current and laid off, pilots fit in? You give AS AMT's a ratio. Where do the ex-TWA, current and laidoff, AMT's fit in? You staple AS FA's to the bottom. Where do the ex-TWA FA's fit in? These are questions that would have to be answered. Guess what, no matter what the answer ends up being someone will not be happy.

 

[Nor'Easta]

How pfredictable of you.
Oh, there was ONE meeting all right. I believe that it took place at LAX. Sherry Cooper and Robert Roach, Jr. insisted on accepting nothing short of DOH for the TWAers. You know the rest of the story.

Oh how pfredictable it is! So, how is the next lawsuit going? Have you spoke to Not So Super Duper Cooper? What an attorney she is...LOL! She has failed so many times at getting the DOH for TWA and so many times she has struck out.

I really don't care who AA buys. The next few years will be interesting at AA. With all 3 unions in CBA talks, who knows what will happen? Strikes? Sick-outs? Slow downs? Only time will tell.

FYI... AA offered to extend the recall rights for an extra 2 years, if the APFA opens talks early. THB said NO!

So, file another lawsuit and get to work on it quick. See if the TWA f/a's can accomplish their goal and placing the APFA into BK.

 

[777 fixer]

<_< ----TWA/Ozzark merger? Silent? I'm not "Silent!" Ozzrak Mechanic and related were "DOVE TAILED!!" I'll repet that "DOVE TAILED!!!!! 😉

Thank you for proving my point. I mention the pilots of Ozark and you say nothing about them. You just talk about the Ozark Mechanics. You do realize that that there are other work groups right?

P.S. The Air Cal mechancis were dove tailed as well.

 

[nbmcg01]

Ozark got their seniority but the twaers did not want to give it to them. Ozark was not a failed company in bankrupcy so their contracts, including scope and LLPs, HAD to be honored. twa bought the stock-the company; as where AA just bought certain assets in a liquidation. Even though the Ozark pilots got DOH, they still got screwed according to a former Ozark/twa pilot I talked to. Imagined what would have happened to the Ozark people (especially pilots) if 9/11 and everything else had happened right after twa bought Ozark.

Your just upset that Ozark got full DOH systemwide and you didn't with AA; thats it, isn't it?
[/quote


Obviously you know very little about labor. Rule is, surviving union decides. The only reason we (the f/as ) balked at all was the AFA wanted as much as 7 to 1. Seven of theirs to one of ours. (we had 5000 on strike). Then the Co "suggested" merging only active employees. With 5000 full term strikers still on the street, that wasn't going to happen. I know because I was testifying in the bad faith bargaining federal trial. Our union's President ALWAYS said, "we will give them DOH, it is the right thing to do". We did not have to give anything. There were no LPPs or SCOPE at that time. Bottom line is we did give them DOH. It WAS the right thing to do and I don't know of anyone who regretted that decision. Now, once again, because of our TWA seniority, I do NOT think we should have received DOH. I do however, think that either pure fences (JFK and STL) or slotting @ 4 to 1. (4 AA- 1 TWA should have been fair) Didn't happen, won't happen. The main issue NOW is getting people back to work. As we ARE AA f/as. it will be interesting to see if the APFA is as aggressive in protecting our meager seniority IF another merger occurs.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

It's a bigger headache than you realize. You give the AS piltos a ratio. Where do the ex-TWA, current and laid off, pilots fit in? You give AS AMT's a ratio. Where do the ex-TWA, current and laidoff, AMT's fit in? You staple AS FA's to the bottom. Where do the ex-TWA FA's fit in? These are questions that would have to be answered. Guess what, no matter what the answer ends up being someone will not be happy.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

777 fixer,

Thanx for keeping this thread on topic.
(But to everyone else, you know I respect your right to discuss different portions)

777,
I would guess, that any(hypo) AS employees would have to be stapled BEHIND, or RATIO'd behind any TWA/(AA) employess, due to their(AA) seniority date of(I think) 4/10/01.

I keep going back to the possibility of Merger"(s)" PLURAL, as opposed to a single merger.
A VERY different Animal all together !!

Can you IMAGINE the activity on these boards, after "somebody PULLS the(first) TRIGGER" on a M/A

NH/BB's

 

[DFWFSC]

From a fleet service respective an Alaska merger/buyout would go something like this:

#1. AA would have to hire close to 2,000 new FSC's...Their entire ramp is outsourced in every station except for the state of Alaska. So your looking at massive hiring in SEA,LAX,SFO,plus adding FSC's back into ONT,BUR,OAK,SMF and PDX which AS has a ton of flights which would require well over 200 FSC's at that station.

#2 AA would have to spend millions on new ground equipment, training,etc...

 

[FA Mikey]

I just cant help but laugh at you... Do you not understand simple economics? My guess is no.. First off you have 4 of the largest employers in the Airline industry that have filed chapter 11 (US, DAL, UAL, NWA).. All of those players have cut costs dramatically - and alot due to pension dumping - (i do not agree with this, however it happened) These 4 major players have now slashed costs along with air carriers such as AWA and JBLUE that have comp. cost structures. You have at least 6 if not 7 (including SWA who could undercut us all due to hedging and point to point system) airlines operating at a lower cost structure and lower payment obligations than AA and CAL.. Those 6 or 7 airlines carry FAR more traffic than AA and CAL do.. SOOOO... you have all of these carriers offering the same if not better product for a lower cost but you are all charging the same pices... hmmmm - i wonder who will win that one... The pilots at AA are salivating at keeping their pensions but dont be surprised if that falls to the wayside. AA has billions of money due after their extension fo their underfunded pension runs out, just a few years down the road... They will need that money to pay for those wonderful pensions you kept and dont forget that will leave them practically broke... (Especially if they were to partake in a M/A deal) You are just getting a slow start unfortunately on what others took advantage of (sadly) early on - and lets not also forget that USAir is making more money than AA for an air carrier one third its size... Just facts - I wish i still had a pension but we had a choice to make - job or no job - and most carriers followed suit - I truly hope you dont have to take that road but dont count it...

Well, we cannot all be as brilliant as you. (LOL) FYI AA's costs are in line with the other carriers. There is no huge advantage that all the bankrupt carriers have over AA and Continental.

Part of the pension disparity can also be made up by an improving economy, and the market investments increasing in value.

 

[Nor'Easta]

Well, we cannot all be as brilliant as you. (LOL) FYI AA's costs are in line with the other carriers. There is no huge advantage that all the bankrupt carriers have over AA and Continental.

Part of the pension disparity can also be made up by an improving economy, and the market investments increasing in value.

BINGO!!! Let's see the brilliant one's reply. 🙄

 

[galleyguy4u2]

[quote name='Nor'Easta' post='421255' date='Oct 9 2006, 08:02 PM']Oh how pfredictable it is! So, how is the next lawsuit going? Have you spoke to Not So Super Duper Cooper? What an attorney she is...LOL! She has failed so many times at getting the DOH for TWA and so many times she has struck out.

I really don't care who AA buys. The next few years will be interesting at AA. With all 3 unions in CBA talks, who knows what will happen? Strikes? Sick-outs? Slow downs? Only time will tell.

FYI... AA offered to extend the recall rights for an extra 2 years, if the APFA opens talks early. THB said NO!

So, file another lawsuit and get to work on it quick. See if the TWA f/a's can accomplish their goal and placing the APFA into BK.[/quote]


Not TRUE....I spoke with THB and there was no offer of extending recall rights for TWO YEARS. APFA was seeking unlimited recall rights such as the pilots. Mechanics have ten years. We agreed that it is not proper to open section 6 at this time. However, the cost paid by us is over six hundred million, your sacrifice is less. We have no jobs. John Ward did not even receive credit for eliminating furlough pay or the loss of jobs. I have been in this business for a long time and you never concede a work rules in exchange for NOTHING. John Ward is the Hitler of the airline industry and knew nothing about negotiations with AA. He just handed the plate to them. The RPA vote was the joke of the industry. Vote twice until you get it right.

How did you vote NE'er? 😛h34r:

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

[quote name='Nor'Easta' post='421274' date='Oct 9 2006, 01:35 PM']BINGO!!! Let's see the brilliant one's reply. 🙄[/quote]


You are both so retaaahhhhddeeeedddddd.... Your cost may be somewhat in line - however the big cost (your pension) is not - which means UA US DAL and NWA B6 and SWA can undercut you in all markets, b/c when the economy improves it helps all carriers not just one... So they will all have that advantage not only that more efficient aircraft, lower paid employees (which i am not proud of) and more efficient work forces - just a fact.. Nor'Easta get a life.. In case you havent realized quite yet, i am much more aware of my surroundings than you, so go crawl back under that snowbank where you belong... I would definitely not be bragging about MIKEYS comments on here.. I dont think CAL will feel the burn as bad as AA but in my opinion AA will be salivating at getting in on the merger mania getting ready to take place - and they shutter at the thought of being kicked to number 3 airline... And it will falter from there.. It should be interesting... You know what they say... what goes around comes around....