Aa Slow Death

[jsn25911]

No, AA did not purchase EAL. And what a lot of people don't realize is that AA did not purchase TWA.

You are so off the rocker - if AA didn't purchase TWA - then give us back our planes, routes, bases and get the heck out of our hangers!

What in the he** did AA mean with: TWO great airlines....One great future!

 

[MCI transplant]

No, AA did not purchase EAL. And what a lot of people don't realize is that AA did not purchase TWA. In my above post I tried to illustrate how the scenarios of EAL and TWA are the same. They were both asset purchases. In EAL's case AA bought the route authorities and only the route authorities to Latin America. Then they negotiated new leases with Dade County for the gates at MIA. In TWA's case AA bought certain assests (a handful of owned older aircraft, the gates and slots at JFK, LGA, DCA, and ORD, and Worldspan, which was used as collateral for DIP financing). Then AA negotiated new leases for the TWA's leased aircraft, the MCI facility, and STL. And of course, AA renegotiated the union contracts where the TWA people were brought up to our payscales but their labor protective provisions were deleted. AA then transferred these renegotiated items into TWA Airlines, llc a subsidiary of AA. When the transaction was finished, TWA Inc. was a shell company which consisted of cash and obligations to it's creditors. TWA Inc. then distributed this cash to it's creditors then it ceased to exist. Now if AA had bought TWA by buying it's stock then AA would have to have paid all of TWA's debts (Karabu Icahn agreement, TLV employees severance, the extremely high lease payments TWA was paying for aircraft, and of course the union contracts, which means you would have had full seniority everywhere). I hope this explains (from a legal and financial perspective) how this transaction transpired. As far as many airlines flying the EAL routes, UA purchased Pan Am's Latin American route authorities then subsequently stopped flying almost all of them (did not want to compete with AA). Delta and Continental fly to some Latin destinations, but these were new authorities awarded long after AA's purchase of EAL's Latin authorities. EAL's route authorities were pretty much restricted access (like LHR or NRT) on the West coast of South America. This gave AA time to grow and dominate Latin America and the Caribbean where it has been and continues to be very profitable for AA.

[post="203443"][/post]​

<_< There for a second I thought you know what you were talking about! But now your trying to tell us a.a. "Didn't buy TWA???" If they didn't, then TWA's F.A.A. Certification must still be floating arround out there!

 

[Bob Owens]

No, AA did not purchase EAL. And what a lot of people don't realize is that AA did not purchase TWA.

You are so off the rocker - if AA didn't purchase TWA - then give us back our planes, routes, bases and get the heck out of our hangers!

What in the he** did AA mean with: TWO great airlines....One great future!

[post="203493"][/post]​

Your planes, routes and bases? Did you work for TWA or own it?

 

[MCI transplant]

Your planes, routes and bases? Did you work for TWA or own it?

[post="203532"][/post]​

<_< Bob, now that's funny! It has come to the point where the natives are denying that a.a. even bought TWA, and you make jokes about ownership of same! Give it a month!! And they'll be saying: TWA? TWA, who???? Signed: " Just anotherone of a.a,'s redheaded stepchildren!!!"

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< aafsc---Oh! Just for the record! When a.a. bought TWA, The average age of TWA's fleet was less than a.a.'s!!!!

 

[SkyLiner]

Your planes, routes and bases? Did you work for TWA or own it?

[post="203532"][/post]​

As a matter of fact we did own it...and ownership is something that the average nAAtive will never understand.

 

[aafsc]

<_< There for a second I thought you know what you were talking about! But now your trying to tell us a.a. "Didn't buy TWA???" If they didn't, then TWA's F.A.A. Certification must still be floating arround out there!

[post="203527"][/post]​

No, AA did not purchase Trans World Airlines Inc., they purchased most of their assets in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy liquidation. If they had purchased Trans World Airlines Inc. (by buying their stock) they would have to have taken the Karabu agreement, paid the very high lease rates TWA was paying for their airplanes, paid the TWA Tel Aviv employees their severence, and honored you labor agreements with full seniority intact. On 4/10/01, Trans World Airlines Inc. became a shell company consisting of cash and obligations. When Trans World Airlines Inc. used that cash to pay off it's creditors, then it ceased to exist as a corporate entity. Nobody was going to buy TWA's stock because then they would inherit all of these obligations. AirTran looked over TWA's books and ran like hell the other way. Do you thing that AirTan or any other airline would buy TWA as is and infect themselves with the Karabu contract, the very high lease rates TWA was paying, and the expensive TLV employees contract. If you do not believe me when I say that AA did not purchase TWA, then I suggest you ask a corporate attorney and he will tell you that what I say is the truth. As far as TWA's operating certificate, it is just another asset like a slot or route authority. Even the name, TWA is an asset, in that it is a registered trademark that can be bought and sold. Well AA paid the shell corporation TRANSWORLD AIRLINES INC. for these and all the other assets and transferred them to a new entity called TWA AIRLINES LLC. can you see the difference, it is not the same company. AA owns the trademarked name TWA and the FAA operating certificate. AA retired the TWA name on Dec 2, 2002 and relinquished the TWA FAA operating certificate to the FAA after the last TWA plane was converted to AA specifications.

 

[aafsc]

<_< aafsc---Oh! Just for the record! When a.a. bought TWA, The average age of TWA's fleet was less than a.a.'s!!!!

[post="203582"][/post]​

Yes, TWA had a younger fleet than AA. But TWA was a much smaller airline (number 8) than AA (number 2 at the time) so if TW added 50 new planes and AA added 50 new planes, a greater percentage of TW's fleet would newer than AA's because TWA was much much smaller. However those new airplanes cost TWA dearly in terms lease payments that were in some cases 3 times the amount that other airlines were paying because of TWA's very poor credit rating (filed for bankruptcy twice). These very high lease payments, the cash draining Karabu/Icahn deal, the rising cost of fuel, interest payments, and large amounts of debt principle coming due for payment, was too much for TWA to handle financially so they declared their third bankruptcy and liquidated most of their assets to AA (which AA renegotiated terms with the leasing companies in accordance to AA's credit rating at the time which was excellent.)

 

[aafsc]

No, AA did not purchase EAL. And what a lot of people don't realize is that AA did not purchase TWA.

You are so off the rocker - if AA didn't purchase TWA - then give us back our planes, routes, bases and get the heck out of our hangers!

What in the he** did AA mean with: TWO great airlines....One great future!

[post="203493"][/post]​

The trademarked name TWA was one of the assets that AA bought in the TWA Inc. liquidation. The slogan "Two great airlines one great future" was a marketing ploy by AA at the time. Believe me, nobody more than the nAAtives wishes that the transaction can be undone. We (along with our union leadership) objected to this deal as soon as it was announced. We were totally against it while you TWA people were all for it. TWA people were saying "I am sure glad you bought us" , etc. Even after the deal was closed I feel that AA should have reconstituted TWA as it was, complete with the high lease rates, the Karabbu deal, and and the expensive TLV employee contracts, and the upcoming large debt repayments. This way they could have shut down forever and we naatives would not have to hear your whining day after day after day. I think you are off your rocker, why don't you put your emotion aside and ask a corporate attorney about the AA/TW deal and he will prove me right in what I say which is "AA bought TWA's assets in a Chapter 7 liquidation, from a legal, financial, and accounting perspective.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

As a matter of fact we did own it...and ownership is something that the average nAAtive will never understand.

[post="203654"][/post]​

Ownership is something that nAAtive employees do NOT want. Ownership doesn't work. Look at UAL employees. Their union said they would be millionairs! I don't want stock options either. I want full pay & benefits for producing an airworthy aircraft. Period.

 

[MCI transplant]

No, AA did not purchase Trans World Airlines Inc., they purchased most of their assets in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy liquidation. If they had purchased Trans World Airlines Inc. (by buying their stock) they would have to have taken the Karabu agreement, paid the very high lease rates TWA was paying for their airplanes, paid the TWA Tel Aviv employees their severence, and honored you labor agreements with full seniority intact. On 4/10/01, Trans World Airlines Inc. became a shell company consisting of cash and obligations. When Trans World Airlines Inc. used that cash to pay off it's creditors, then it ceased to exist as a corporate entity. Nobody was going to buy TWA's stock because then they would inherit all of these obligations. AirTran looked over TWA's books and ran like hell the other way. Do you thing that AirTan or any other airline would buy TWA as is and infect themselves with the Karabu contract, the very high lease rates TWA was paying, and the expensive TLV employees contract. If you do not believe me when I say that AA did not purchase TWA, then I suggest you ask a corporate attorney and he will tell you that what I say is the truth. As far as TWA's operating certificate, it is just another asset like a slot or route authority. Even the name, TWA is an asset, in that it is a registered trademark that can be bought and sold. Well AA paid the shell corporation TRANSWORLD AIRLINES INC. for these and all the other assets and transferred them to a new entity called TWA AIRLINES LLC. can you see the difference, it is not the same company. AA owns the trademarked name TWA and the FAA operating certificate. AA retired the TWA name on Dec 2, 2002 and relinquished the TWA FAA operating certificate to the FAA after the last TWA plane was converted to AA specifications.

[post="203712"][/post]​

<_< aafc-- My Daddy told me years ago:"If it smells like a rat, sqweels like a rat, runs, like a rat, looks like a rat, there's more than a good chance it is a rat!!!" The above acount is a perfect rendition of offical company/ Union line! And some technicaly may be true to a point! But some of it is not quit acurate! For one, if as you say a.a. bought only our assests, in bankrupcy,why weren't they (our assets) opened for bid by the Bankrupcy Judge to other Airlines??I'm sure if only our assest were up for sale, some of the other Airlines would have bed for routes, slotes, etc. The reason is that TWA was in Chapt.11, reorganization not Chap.7, which is Liqudation!! Which was not the case! I'm sorry! Your explanation is too net! I'm sure it was written by some Dallas Lawyer, and is widly belive in the company! But it doesn't tell the whole story! It is widely believed that the TWA board and a.a. were negotiating a posable buy us out long before TWA went into it's last bankrupcy!!And the Bankrupcy itself may have even been Orchestrated to get reed of Carl Ichan and his Karabu! He was the posion pill of TWA as you suggested! And to claim otherwise would be an insult to all of us! But at this point in time, I guess we' never know for sure! Your statement that there wasn't anyone interested in TWA besides a.a. is not quit accurate either! At the time, or just before, a.a./ TWA board droped their bombshell, the I.A.M., and other of our Unions, were negotiating with some of TWA's larger Creditors, for a posible take over! Remember the "Employees" held the largest single block of stock! Although we didn't have a majority, or controling interest! But the Creditors wanted to replace our then CEO Uncle Bill, and other prominant members of the Board! As the so called tale go'es, got wind of it ,and put a. a. on front burner! I know this all sound like a fairy tale, and may be! But for you to make a flate statement like that, really doesn't tell the whole story!!!!

 

[smfav8r]

Reading this is very amusing.....AA has never offered a fair and equitable merger/buyout of assets that I can recall??? (I could be wrong)

Come on, what did anyone expect? AA to give date of hire to TW employees....AA's to GOOD for that!!! (sarcastic if you haven't figured that out!)

But on that note....talking about EAL's routes in Latin America...hell it was profitable from the word go when AA bought it.....but wasn't it profitable from the word go when EAL bought it from Braniff???? HMMMMM?? I wonder??

Did EAL give a fair and equitable merger/buyout of assets to the Braniff employees?? What do you think??

Some group will always get screwed in any merger/buyout senerio....not a whole lot you can do about it....Go on with life and deal!!!

I feel very bad for the TW folks, it was once a great airline and a lot of wonderful people worked there....shows what bad management can do!!!

I myself, work for a once great airline that is going down the tubes also....hopefully they can rebound, only time will tell!!!

For the folks at AA, I can only hope for your sake, what goes around, doesn't come around in your career span....it could get ugly!

 

[MCI transplant]

Reading this is very amusing.....AA has never offered a fair and equitable merger/buyout of assets that I can recall??? (I could be wrong)

Come on, what did anyone expect? AA to give date of hire to TW employees....AA's to GOOD for that!!! (sarcastic if you haven't figured that out!)

But on that note....talking about EAL's routes in Latin America...hell it was profitable from the word go when AA bought it.....but wasn't it profitable from the word go when EAL bought it from Braniff???? HMMMMM?? I wonder??

Did EAL give a fair and equitable merger/buyout of assets to the Braniff employees?? What do you think??

Some group will always get screwed in any merger/buyout senerio....not a whole lot you can do about it....Go on with life and deal!!!

I feel very bad for the TW folks, it was once a great airline and a lot of wonderful people worked there....shows what bad management can do!!!

I myself, work for a once great airline that is going down the tubes also....hopefully they can rebound, only time will tell!!!

For the folks at AA, I can only hope for your sake, what goes around, doesn't come around in your career span....it could get ugly!

[post="203833"][/post]​

<_< I agree! This subject has played it'self out! For now!! And life go'es on!! "Happy Thanksgiving" People!! 😀

 

[Drippy Quill]

Wasn't TW's last BK part of the merger transaction? Seems I remember something on that, to the effect that a BK was necessary for the deal to be done.

 

[TWAnr]

Wasn't TW's last BK part of the merger transaction?

[post="204808"][/post]​

It was a condition which AMR insisted upon as part of the purchase agreement.