AA and Labor Negotiations-2020

[V.O. Reason]

Cutting pay for me should be the last resort.
I understand the jr guys are likely to be furloughed but if there are going to be pay cuts they must have it in writing that it’s temporary and we will be returned to our full rates
It took too long to get where we are now and to see it erased by this damn virus

 

[swamt]

Sounds like instead of just reducing FT to PT now he wants to negotiate that deal.
Just based on how he wanted to ramrod that through before I would be very careful what they agree to.
Make sure there is a time limit and it isn’t the entire staff.
Get it all in writing.
I would not trust Kirby at all and at AA I would also be careful agreeing to anything similar as well
These executives could care less what we get as long as there is a big bonus in it for them

This is an opportunity for unions to show they can pivot quickly and/or adapt to new realities. To be clear, I’m not talking about agreeing to concessionary language- I’m talking about getting creative to keep people on the property while also making sure there are some guard rails in place (as VO Reason notes above).

To be honest, I think there is more of an appetite for 30(ish) hour lines than people might think? The key is to make it an appealing option, rather than just being voluntold to take one. There are several easy ways to make that happen.

Well said and great points by both of you. Definitely get it in writing with a snapback clause included. If not, both AA and UAL management WILL take advantage of it and milk it out all the way down the road to the next contract nego's even if we are back up and running strong say by end of this year or early next year.
Below is an article on a risk assessment of the airlines and it appears AA and United are at the top of worse shape looking at possible failure or at least BK depending on length of down travel. They say anything below a 40 score is "at risk" to failure or possible BK filing or default on debt. Delta and SWA looks to be the strongest on his list.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-traffic-hits-coronavirus-164433190.html

 

[swamt]

yahoo keeps pushing a news item. a risk assessment company says with certainty that aa will file for BK. it's exclusive 'point system' that seemingly never fails - scores aa 1 point worse than united..each company tens of points behind delta and southwest.

ok. seems to me that every company that this risk assessment company correctly had filing for BK and filed for BK..those companies didn't receive govt. aid to ward off BK.

i wonder how they scored delta and united in 2002 and how they scored aa in 2010?? all under different economic circumstances.

it was GM and chrysler that received govt. aid in 2009-2010..paid some 90% of the loans back.

the difference is that the argument in 2009 was that ford and foreign car makers who didn't receive money were being 'penalized'. in this 2020 case, all the large commercial airlines in the usa have taken money to keep the airline industry afloat, until the virus crisis subsides.

The article you speak of sounds like the very same one I posted above. It does show AA and UAL in the worse shape and possibly headed for failure or at least another BK filing. But I don't think so. LF's are starting to pick up for all the airlines. Now will there be reduced hours and/or pay? Probably at some airlines and it could get some layoffs as all the airlines will get smaller but the question is, how long will the airlines be smaller??

https://www.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-traffic-hits-coronavirus-164433190.html

everyone i know with around my seniority agrees with you. no concessions to save the PT (6 years) with an am s/m shift.

also agree about the pesky senior citizens. some were on the fence with retirement until the virus hit. now, they sit in a chair for 8 hrs a day and fully believe they can sit in a chair for another 5 years earning $35/hr.

some of these people are in their 70s. it's unbelievable.

i stay out of it, but there is some tension and a lot of badgering. guys in their 50s getting angry at guys in their 70s for not retiring and taking desired shifts. that's bad enough - and then the guy in his 70s expects to sit around all day...

Yes. Agree with you. I hate seeing the "old timers" waiting so long to retire. We constantly hear of, "hey, so and so just retired." "Really? how old was he?" 7?. And just months later we hear something about they are in the hospital dying of something with only months left. No time spent enjoying retirement.
I am trying to be retired by minimum 60, and actually shooting for 55-58. it kills me to see these guys hang around so long (all the way in their 80's) but some don't have retirement set up enough to retire OR they are supporting young grandchildren (parents died) or they are supporting their own children at adult ages. Sad indeed.
Hopefully some will be able to take this early out packages being offered come June 1st.

 

[SkydrolJunkie]

"Full Pay To The Last Day!"

 

[1AA]

Cutting pay for me should be the last resort.
I understand the jr guys are likely to be furloughed but if there are going to be pay cuts they must have it in writing that it’s temporary and we will be returned to our full rates
It took too long to get where we are now and to see it erased by this damn virus

In writing means nothing. Many agreements were in writing only to be changed by an agreement from both sides. IF AA files for BK then we know what happens to agreements. Crandall once said lay off employees instead of cutting pay. You cut pay and you have a very unhappy work force. The ones that get laid off will be twice as unhappy. Unfortunately our unions will agree to it in hopes of minimizing layoffs and save union dues.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

The article you speak of sounds like the very same one I posted above.

yes, it is the same. my issue with it was: the companies they successfully predicted BK for...were those companies able to tap into govt. aid to bridge a national crisis?

if not, then to me, irrelevant. pure fear stoking.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I hate seeing the "old timers" waiting so long to retire. We constantly hear of, "hey, so and so just retired." "Really? how old was he?" 7?. And just months later we hear something about they are in the hospital dying of something with only months left. No time spent enjoying retirement.
I am trying to be retired by minimum 60, and actually shooting for 55-58. it kills me to see these guys hang around so long (all the way in their 80's) but some don't have retirement set up enough to retire OR they are supporting young grandchildren (parents died) or they are supporting their own children at adult ages. Sad indeed.
Hopefully some will be able to take this early out packages being offered come June 1st.

this is a very touchy subject. everyone has the right to decide their work status, retire or keep going. some people may have had money problems for years, due to health or child support issues.

as much as i believe that everyone has that right, some people game the system. this could be more of a LAA phenomena than others, especially a non-union delta.

when i say game the system, i'm saying they possess enough seniority to 'hide' and bid specialty specific jobs. one person may have vision issues..refuses to drive at any time. one person may have agility issues and comes to work with an obvious limp that could cause an accident.

i realize i come from a privileged laa background. i also realize us air mngt. has turned that traditional laa world upside down, for the most part.

in the quest for a superior quality of work life situation...workers with 30+ years are getting testy with workers with 35+ years that are obvious retirement candidates, who decide to stay. i see that in my work area.

 

[1986Mekanic]

Hey, everyone has a right to think whatever the hell they want, but....

No one has a right to tell another guy to retire. If that guy wants to stay there till he's 90+ that's his prerogative and younger guys should try to help him instead of trying to stick it up his arse and complain about him pulling down premium shift and days off..

F yall that do that ****...

Quit freaking whining....

One of these days, one of you might find yourself in the exact same position,,, with some guy fresh on the block ,, giving you shite cuz your still there.... F That!!

Take the high road,,,, not the low one....

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

The airline Biz is a back stabbing industry, and in my 41 yrs I have found that it is more prevalent here at AA than the other places I have worked. The industry itself is not family friendly so working Holidays, Nights, missing so much that other industries workers don't have to deal with makes for a tough life. As the younger guys come along they see the older guys slowing down and they want them to leave because they want the better days off, shift, work area. They don't realise they some day will get there as well. Whether it's the ramp guys or maintenance it is the same.

UnLike most other service industries many go through different family problems, divorce, having to commute due to the layoffs/cutbacks. Starting over & over at the bottom of the pay scale. Screw them that company was going out of Biz anyway. Here at AA we are the ones who filed BK, so now you all ***** about
A/W - USAir running the show. If you listen to the guys who have been around along time they all say it was a better workplace back in the day. Union members stuck together, NO MATTER WHAT, those days are over the IGM attitude of the younger generation and I want it all now is in place.

We will all see what happens come Oct 1st, when the fun money stops. The younger guys are worried about being laid off and supporting their families, hoping the older guys will retire so they can keep the jobs they have. Back in the day there were lots of place to go. Lots of airline companies around both small and large.
Many guys have started over two or three times. The industry has change and so isn't the use of your A&P Lic. Think outside of the Box.

Most of you in maintenance here don't realise the chemicals and protective equipment that you have were not around back in the day. So consider yourself lucky you don't have to deal with all of that. We used to have to wait until we had 10 yrs at any company to get vested. now it's 5yrs. Worry about your family and its future the old guys will go when they are ready.

 

[robbedagain]

Seeking alpha had an article that titled AA the first to go under. It seems to be those type article are like pro ch11 for AA n mentions UA.

 

[Kev3188]

Cutting pay for me should be the last resort.

Same here. So far we’ve only heard carriers talk about cutting hours, not base rates. That could change of course, but I’d rather see 30,32 hour lines over a 25% cut in base rates.

 

[ALUS78]

yes, it is the same. my issue with it was: the companies they successfully predicted BK for...were those companies able to tap into govt. aid to bridge a national crisis?

if not, then to me, irrelevant. pure fear stoking.

Take it with a grain of salt I'm US and I've been reading articles of US demise for 20 years and some of those articles made sense hell one of our brilliant IAM Vice presidents (top guy not local) even suggested it would be good for the industry as a whole. Needless to say that statement was seen one day and gone the next

 

[ALUS78]

Same here. So far we’ve only heard carriers talk about cutting hours, not base rates. That could change of course, but I’d rather see 30,32 hour lines over a 25% cut in base rates.

It's still a cut in pay. To keep everyone working.All the airlines said they're shrinking with your thinking everyone is going to be late with their mortgage. We see passengers increasing everyday but when is the bread and butter business travel going to return might be 5 years

 

[Kev3188]

It’s working smarter, not harder.

Maybe I just value time as a commodity.

 

[Talos]

this is a very touchy subject. everyone has the right to decide their work status, retire or keep going. some people may have had money problems for years, due to health or child support issues.

as much as i believe that everyone has that right, some people game the system. this could be more of a LAA phenomena than others, especially a non-union delta.

when i say game the system, i'm saying they possess enough seniority to 'hide' and bid specialty specific jobs. one person may have vision issues..refuses to drive at any time. one person may have agility issues and comes to work with an obvious limp that could cause an accident.

i realize i come from a privileged laa background. i also realize us air mngt. has turned that traditional laa world upside down, for the most part.

in the quest for a superior quality of work life situation...workers with 30+ years are getting testy with workers with 35+ years that are obvious retirement candidates, who decide to stay. i see that in my work area.

People should retire when they feel it's time. The very lengthy pay cut in 2003 cost members thousands upon thousands of dollars. Add to that the frozen pension which hurt and easy to see why people are trying to not retire so quickly. Then we have the last 5 or 6 years of bankruptcy deal where we lost more which makes you wonder how much we have actually lost in retirement from all this. These bad experiences have me in a not giving position for concessions. If they file chapter 11 so be it. Hopefully it can all be avoided, but it is harder to retire.