AA breaks its silence on labor talks

[StraaightTaalk]

Everyone in the 'industry' should be 'pissed off'.
But then again, complacency and divisiveness is what the 'company' wants.
Not just AA, but 'AAll' of US.

B) UT

Everybody is "pissed off," especially me, but unlike Miss Donttouch, I don't take pleasure in pointing out other airlines' perceived ills. She seems intent on making life seem so bad at AA that her sad little world at UA might seem a little brighter. She is obsessed with other airlines' problems, which says more about her as a person than anything else.

 

[nbmcg01]

Good points. However, you express them in an intelligent manner. Miss Donttouch simply argues in a typically semi-coherent, rambling manner.

By the way, I don't agree with the standard TWA mantra that the work rules there offset the pay increase you got coming over. Simply because TWA's work rules had become so flexible over time that you were, literally, able to fly every day, does not equate to a pay raise.

Letting me fly more does not equal a pay increase.

Wrong grasshopper...I flew 23 less days the year before. STL-SEA turns being a favorite. None of those 4-6 leg monsters you see now. I also had free insurance and that pesky 14% 401K contribution. Remember our senior trip was a LAX-IAD turn. We didn't "sit" like the AA f/as because we were trained on all aircraft. Also, we had "pure lines". Not all of the AA CBA is bad, but for an example, we got rid on foreign nationals in 1976. We had 12 day reserve spreads (12 days in a row) as well as having the broken up spreads, none of the equal time restricted trading, (who cares what the trip(s) are worth as long as it is covered, trading up to check in, (was a life saver if someone forgot a passport or was running late) . Our IODs had no "light duty" or game playing restrictions, such is "how bad was the turbulence?". If you were on the property, or on duty, got hurt, it was an IOD. Our FMLA was not used for sinus infections but for the true intent, long term personal or family member illness/injury.

Point is we could have been have been looking at the best of both since 2001 (and especially 2003) and come up with some great quality of life, cost neutral or cost saving items for negotiations. Unfortunately, we in the "we've ALWAYS done it this way mode". We learned to be creative during concessionary negotiations.

Now the BEST would be your pay per hour (although it is not far from where we were when acquired) and a combination of our work rules. That would truly be "industry leading".

 

[Kev3188]

Everyone in the 'industry' should be 'pissed off'.
But then again, complacency and divisiveness is what the 'company' wants.
Not just AA, but 'AAll' of US.

B) UT

Amen!


Also, I have to say that Donttouchthebeauty is right; the pension is the "sacred cow" that the union will use to shove all other concessions down the masses' collective throat. That's what happened at NWA, anyway. Then they went and froze the pension anyway.

Now in addition to the "frozen" pension (with a multiplier of $51/month), we're in the IAM NPP with a "fantastic" multiplier of $36.94/month (with an effective start date for everyone of 01.June.07). :down:

I still contend that a 401K match is a better deal.

 

[777 fixer]

I would love to know what about if you think i am.. Please tell me oh greatfull 777fixer... LOL..

That statement makes no sense.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

That statement makes no sense.

...which is usual for her.

Amen!
Also, I have to say that Donttouchthebeauty is right; the pension is the "sacred cow" that the union will use to shove all other concessions down the masses' collective throat. That's what happened at NWA, anyway. Then they went and froze the pension anyway.

Miss Donttouch (and who would want to?) didn't come up with any major revelations when stating that the pensions will be a big issue in these negotiations, especially since AA employees are, by and large, the only airline industry employees in their class and craft to retain a Defined Benefit Plan.

The company will, of course, add the value of the pensions when discussing any contract proposal. How is that a revelation? That is the classic airline industry negotiating style, and has always been that way.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

I still contend that a 401K match is a better deal.

I would not necessarily disagree with that, except for the employees who are sitting on the cusp of retirement, and who wouldn't have the opportunity to really benefit from such a plan.

WN's costs, though, for administering and funding its Defined Contribution plans are actually higher per employee than the costs incurred by AA per employee in its Defined Benefit plan, as I understand it.

 

[nbmcg01]

I would not necessarily disagree with that, except for the employees who are sitting on the cusp of retirement, and who wouldn't have the opportunity to really benefit from such a plan.

WN's costs, though, for administering and funding its Defined Contribution plans are actually higher per employee than the costs incurred by AA per employee in its Defined Benefit plan, as I understand it.

That is why you have age weighted contribution amts. If it only applied to new employees, then it wouldn't affect those currently near retirement.

If it would apply to all employees, the defined benefit would be "frozen", and then the age weighted 401K would supplement the defined benefit amt.

 

[Kev3188]

Miss Donttouch (and who would want to?) didn't come up with any major revelations when stating that the pensions will be a big issue in these negotiations, especially since AA employees are, by and large, the only airline industry employees in their class and craft to retain a Defined Benefit Plan.

The company will, of course, add the value of the pensions when discussing any contract proposal. How is that a revelation? That is the classic airline industry negotiating style, and has always been that way.

I don't think it's a revelation, either; I just agree with her sentiment that AA (with the help of the unions) will lord it over you guys during negotiations.

I would not necessarily disagree with that, except for the employees who are sitting on the cusp of retirement, and who wouldn't have the opportunity to really benefit from such a plan.

True, but if their pension is going to be frozen anyway (just to use a hypothetical), then it's better than nothing. For most folks over the long term, it's a more viable option.

I would prefer it because once it's in my account, it's "mine" to do with what I choose. no more threats of "give us what we want or the pension goes away."

Compounding interst also works a lot better than any multiplier could hope to. Also, if something should happen to me (God forbid), my wife gets the $$$, whereas with a pension, she wouldn't.

WN's costs, though, for administering and funding its Defined Contribution plans are actually higher per employee than the costs incurred by AA per employee in its Defined Benefit plan, as I understand it.

Hmmm. Interesting. Where did you see that? Do you have any kind of link? Not disputing it, just would like to see...

 

[FWAAA]

Hmmm. Interesting. Where did you see that? Do you have any kind of link? Not disputing it, just would like to see...

For the last several years, AMR has contributed between $250 million and $400 million each to its plans, while Southwest has been contributing about $300 to $350 million to its defined contribution plans on behalf of its employees. With just over 1/3 the number of employess and just over 1/3 the revenue of AMR, Southwest has been spending much more for its employee retirement than has AMR, both as a percentage of revenue and a percentage of employee compensation expense. Lots more per employee as well.

I've written several threads with the details over the past several years.

Properly managed, defined benefit plans can be very cheap for employers during bull markets (like we're in). The fairly small contributions AMR has been required to make are also helping it catch up the underfunded portion. Overall, AMR has managed its DB plans very well.

UA, US, DL (and to a lesser degree, NW), just couldn't afford to make up their underfunded portions and terminated or froze them.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

No more threats of "give us what we want or the pension goes away."

And that is precisely why neither the TWU nor AA will ever convert from the present DB plan. They already converted the non union employees, but they want to retain the leverage of threats that go with a DB plan.

 

[brown]

No, your just pissed off.

How old are you? And you are a tech? Grow up and act professional...

That statement makes no sense.

Another intelligent quote

 

[Wretched Wrench]

How old are you? And you are a tech? Grow up and act professional...
Another intelligent quote

Another personal attack that does not advance the discussion. Nor does it advance your case or your standing.

 

[brown]

Another personal attack that does not advance the discussion. Nor does it advance your case or your standing.

Well genius maybe you should have a look at the post in which I replied

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

The company will, of course, add the value of the pensions when discussing any contract proposal. How is that a revelation? That is the classic airline industry negotiating style, and has always been that way.
[/quote]


You know StrAAight, I could care less if I have your approval of what I post or not, facts are facts!! Like I said before, I simply stated I don't think there will be pay increases and they will dangle the pension, and you and your rose colored glasses went to town... Ah, but yes, I forget.... I am jealous and thats the reason i post my statements... You state how UA is in deep dark times and that we are going to be sold off, etc etc... You know what? It may happen, but I wouldn't bet your "raise" on it... Tilton speaks of consolidation, b/c there needs to be... I really don't think I would feel more or less secure at any other airline, including yours.. I know that is like nails on a chalkboard to you, but its true... Just remember - people post opinions, and yours is no more worthy ( O mighty one ) than mine... Enjoy your evening StrAAight!!!

 

[High Speed Steel]

I have a rather dumb idea. Save your comments until your negotiation process has actually begun....Don't even recognize their web-site.

I haven't visited the site yet, but I sure hope it is still active in November 2007....Would like to add a few comments