2015 Fleet Service thread

[Kev3188]

Let's reverse that question and put yourself in their shoes. If you became organized do you think that Delta would do the same thing to you that was done to those Frontier workers?

If yes why?

If no why?

Now consider the size of the Delta operation and consider the size of Jetblue's operation. Would any political heat come out of doing to either one of you what was done to Fronteir's?

I could certainly see them doing it to the small/medium sized cities. The hurdle likely wouldn't be bad PR, but rather how fast they could line up replacements.

From this observer's perch, the carrier seems to do what it wants when it comes to labor law, let alone things that are actually allowed.

 

[WeAAsles]

They weren't always a ULCC. I'd still like to know what top out was... Do you know?

No. Since they're non Union there obviously is no place to see a contract to get those numbers. To get your numbers even is very difficult and that's why I ask you questions about it. But looking at what the average pay is for all baggage handling work in the US according to BLS I doubt it would have been much more than $12.00 per hour or $24,000 per year?

 

[WeAAsles]

I could certainly see them doing it to the small/medium sized cities. The hurdle likely wouldn't be bad PR, but rather how fast they could line up replacements.
 

Agreed. Unless they want to maintain a better quality product by keeping the work in house, I can see either one doing this. They wouldn't do it to their larger operation sites.
 

From this observer's perch, the carrier seems to do what it wants when it comes to labor law, let alone things that are actually allowed.

Absolutely. Of course they've bought off a few Politicians to make life easier for the corporate entity.

Another question going back to Jetblue. What do you think would happen to all of those Jetblue employees if say they merged with SWA and didn't come in with their own Union or a contract?

I can absolutely guarantee that the TWU has firm language regarding mergers and acquisitions in their contract. And I doubt under this merger when it goes to the NMB for a decision the Union would be voted out. The TWU over at SWA is a pretty popular organization. So Jetblue employees would be stapled to the bottom.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

 A lot of variables here Weez take out de-icing and put in bag room or cargo or catering now what? I wouldn't force the company to go out and buy deicing trucks but where we have them an AA employee should do it. Here at LGA at US  nobody in fleet wanted to do it so they farmed it out. 

We have a large deicing operation at LGA, I'd expect to see that LUS deice contract go away once they figure out the co-location issues.
 
Deicing is a cash cow for the whores that enjoy that.I've spent enough time in the bucket to not want any part of it.Although you see the guys in the Elephant trucks up there having a coffee while bookfacing on the phone waiting to shoot.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Frontier decided it did not want to deal with the Union and maybe make improvements to it's employee's wages and benefits. So it spun off it's baggage operation to Swissport and told it's employees that it would get first priority for interviews. What Tim fails to mention is this.

"The typical Frontier Airlines Ramp Agent salary is $11. Ramp Agent salaries at Frontier Airlines can range from $9-$12. This estimate is based upon 13 Frontier Airlines Ramp Agent salary reports provided by employees. See all Ramp Agent salaries to learn how this stacks up in the market."

https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Frontier-Airlines-Ramp-Agent-Hourly-Pay-E5144_D_KO18,28.htm
 
Frontier's outsourcing will target about 1,160 jobs in Denver and another 140 in Milwaukee. Frontier plans to hire a unit of Swissport International take over its ground operations at the Denver airport, by far the carrier's biggest hub. The airline also plans to outsource the jobs of 140 Milwaukee-based reservations workers to a privately held company based in Nashville, The Associated Press reports. Frontier counted about 3,800 total employees -- including pilots, mechanics, cabin crew and others -- prior to Friday's announcement.
Frontier spokesman Todd Lehmacher said affected employees would be given priority for interviews if they wished to seek jobs with the contractors. In a statement quoted by ABC 7 of Denver, Lehmacher says it was a "difficult but necessary decision to transition the management of these departments to business partners who specializes in these areas."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayinthesky/2015/01/16/frontier-airlines-to-outsource-a-third-of-its-workforce/21903721/

And the final piece of the story.
 
Frontier, whose planes’ tails sport images of animals like bears and foxes, operates a fleet of Airbus Group SE jets on more than 275 daily flights within the U.S. and to Mexico and Jamaica. Indigo acquired the Denver-based airline from Republic Airways Holdings Inc. for $36 million in cash. The total transaction value was $145 million including debt.
Frontier has changed hands twice since filing for bankruptcy protection in April 2008. Republic bought the carrier in October 2009 for $108.8 million, agreeing not to pursue a $150 million unsecured bankruptcy claim. After the Indigo buyout, Frontier’s new owner transformed it into a so-called ultra-low-cost carrier -- an airline that offers inexpensive base fares and adds fees for everything else.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-05/frontier-airlines-said-to-hire-barclays-deutsche-bank-for-ipo

So yep. I guess Tim is right. The workers for Frontier asked to be represented by the TWU, cards were signed and they voted for Union representation. Because of that Frontier management decided to outsource all of them thus ending all of those spectacular careers those people had making a whopping $11.00 per hour. Way to go TWU. You ruined those poor people. 
 

 
You obviously are not a good researcher as you rely on google. There were many topped out F9 people. Their top out was $17 back in 2010 I know, not sure what it was when they all got whacked for voting for a union.  But that is irrelevant to my point.  The question remains,  why would a JetBlue ramper making $20+ in a small station sign a card knowing that all similar sized carriers whacked 90% of all stations immediately after unionization.  That's the question and thus far the only answer that you or 700 provided is that the labor laws allow a complete genocide now as court cases prove, and your fact that you brought up that they might be able to work for swissport for $12 buck an hour immediately after unionizing.
 
Sorry, weasel but I don't think that would be good enough for jetblue rampers and that may be why the organizing drive hasn't produced sufficient cards.  That and the fact that Lehive is a sellout anti unionist defrauding IAM members so he can continue his stipend. Besides, he has no idea how to organize a soul.  Shameful that he has chosen the dark side after he was cultured as a radical unionist.
 
 
regards,

 

[Tim Nelson]

No. Since they're non Union there obviously is no place to see a contract to get those numbers. To get your numbers even is very difficult and that's why I ask you questions about it. But looking at what the average pay is for all baggage handling work in the US according to BLS I doubt it would have been much more than $12.00 per hour or $24,000 per year?

 
Stop lying. It wasn't $12.  Probably closer to $20 when they got ear holed. Like I said, it was $17 in 2010 because I attained their policy guides, etc., and conducted a meeting in DEN after receiving a phone call from them.
They got hosed.  Considering the similarities, I think it is incredibly risky for JetBlue rampers to organize and risk all being contracted out 60 days later.  You hedge your argument on politics.  Well, you can't find any support for that line of argument as United contracted out 45 stations, Delta whacked thousands of jobs prior to the NW merger,  nobody complained about Frontier, and only Trump complained about Ford or Nabisco, but people are still eating the Nabisco treats.
 
Heck, unions can't even strike nowadays as the public sympathy is almost nill as we live in a 'me generation'. 
 
The question remains,  if JetBlue organizes, what is preventing management from whacking all stations just as similar size carriers have done?  The JetBlue rampers wanna know.  And please don't tell them that they can work at Swissport for $12. 
 
regards,
 

 

[700UW]

So with your backwards thinking no Union should ever organize?

I always knew that you were anti-union and was only in it for your own personal attempts to gain money and power.

 

[WeAAsles]

Stop lying. It wasn't $12.  Probably closer to $20 when they got ear holed. Like I said, it was $17 in 2010 because I attained their policy guides, etc., and conducted a meeting in DEN after receiving a phone call from them.
They got hosed.  Considering the similarities, I think it is incredibly risky for JetBlue rampers to organize and risk all being contracted out 60 days later.  You hedge your argument on politics.  Well, you can't find any support for that line of argument as United contracted out 45 stations, Delta whacked thousands of jobs prior to the NW merger,  nobody complained about Frontier, and only Trump complained about Ford or Nabisco, but people are still eating the Nabisco treats.
 
Heck, unions can't even strike nowadays as the public sympathy is almost nill as we live in a 'me generation'. 
 
The question remains,  if JetBlue organizes, what is preventing management from whacking all stations just as similar size carriers have done?  The JetBlue rampers wanna know.  And please don't tell them that they can work at Swissport for $12. 
 
regards,

Tim why don't you stop pretending that you give a damn about any of these people. All you're advocating for is that they remain non union because you have a personal vendetta against the IAM. Doesn't matter what union they went for since the same situation would apply to all.

Hey Kev is this really the guy you want to consider thinking he's a workers advocate? A guy who obviously is saying that it would be better for YOU also to remain unorganized by the things he's saying since Anderson may decide to whack you if you have the balls to stand up for yourselves.

This guy was surprisingly once the director of organizing for IAM District 141. Look at him now. Advocating AGAINST anyone else in our industry who is not organized taking the risk.

"Here at least
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."

Milton, Paradise Lost.
 

 

[Tim Nelson]

So with your backwards thinking no Union should ever organize?

I always knew that you were anti-union and was only in it for your own personal attempts to gain money and power.

 
I'm in it for the workers as I've said I'm pro worker. That often means I stand up against management as I've been a 4 time committee person now, but it also means I call bull crap on unions when I have to. That said, I see that you have no response to the otherwise very reasonable question.  The question remains,  as a jetblue ramper, what can you tell them if management decides to follow the court cases as other similar airlines have done and just contract out everyone? It's a very real question that needs an answer other than "You are anti union if you don't sign a card."   To be fair, my conclusion of the matter is to reorganize the IAM organizing, which is all over the place blowing into the wind and not focused as it should be on where it ought to be.  I'd leave JetBlue alone since I know most if not all stations will get eliminated.  The horizon campaign may prove interesting if someone other than Kris Hannah was assigned to it, provided the horizon top out is very low, no higher than low teens. BUT my main organizing campaign would be Delta ramp.  I know you say that they haven't even signed 35% of the cards but there are big reasons why they haven't, and those reasons could be corrected. 
 
The problem at JetBlue and the reason why you are wasting your time there, and the reason why I would leave that campaign, is that you can't get around the question of everyone being contracted out immediately after organizing. It's a real question and most likely that is exactly what will happen.  As Budweiser said, "Leave them alone Louie".
 
regards,
 

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm in it for the workers as I've said I'm pro worker. That often means I stand up against management as I've been a 4 time committee person now, but it also means I call bull crap on unions when I have to. That said, I see that you have no response to the otherwise very reasonable question.  The question remains,  as a jetblue ramper, what can you tell them if management decides to follow the court cases as other similar airlines have done and just contract out everyone? It's a very real question that needs an answer other than "You are anti union if you don't sign a card."   To be fair, my conclusion of the matter is to reorganize the IAM organizing, which is all over the place blowing into the wind and not focused as it should be on where it ought to be.  I'd leave JetBlue alone since I know most if not all stations will get eliminated.  The horizon campaign may prove interesting if someone other than Kris Hannah was assigned to it, provided the horizon top out is very low, no higher than low teens. BUT my main organizing campaign would be Delta ramp.  I know you say that they haven't even signed 35% of the cards but there are big reasons why they haven't, and those reasons could be corrected. 
 
The problem at JetBlue and the reason why you are wasting your time there, and the reason why I would leave that campaign, is that you can't get around the question of everyone being contracted out immediately after organizing. It's a real question and most likely that is exactly what will happen.  As Budweiser said, "Leave them alone Louie".
 
regards,

Oh look at who is trying to apply for a job now. Tim when you were the head of organizing for that very brief period in time didn't the IAM District pay you around $100,000?

If the District were to consider you again obviously because you hope they figure it would shut you up with these public displays, what would be your asking price for the job?

The AGC's make about $130,000 if I'm correct. Would you be asking for at least that much?

And if the District said that they wanted you to continue on with the JetBlue campaign would you tell them no since it might do to these people what you say? Or would you continue on because you're enjoying that fat paycheck?

It's blatantly apparent what you're trying to do here bro. You want a job.

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW Tim I'm making sure that Francesco gets a copy of all your wonderful advice on the JetBlue campaign. I'm sure he'll appreciate all you have to say even if it does seem like you're trying to tell him to give it up and go back to the ramp.

 

[Kev3188]

 
I'm in it for the workers as I've said I'm pro worker. That often means I stand up against management as I've been a 4 time committee person now, but it also means I call bull crap on unions when I have to. That said, I see that you have no response to the otherwise very reasonable question.  The question remains,  as a jetblue ramper, what can you tell them if management decides to follow the court cases as other similar airlines have done and just contract out everyone? It's a very real question that needs an answer other than "You are anti union if you don't sign a card."   To be fair, my conclusion of the matter is to reorganize the IAM organizing, which is all over the place blowing into the wind and not focused as it should be on where it ought to be.  I'd leave JetBlue alone since I know most if not all stations will get eliminated.  The horizon campaign may prove interesting if someone other than Kris Hannah was assigned to it, provided the horizon top out is very low, no higher than low teens. BUT my main organizing campaign would be Delta ramp.  I know you say that they haven't even signed 35% of the cards but there are big reasons why they haven't, and those reasons could be corrected. 
 
The problem at JetBlue and the reason why you are wasting your time there, and the reason why I would leave that campaign, is that you can't get around the question of everyone being contracted out immediately after organizing. It's a real question and most likely that is exactly what will happen.  As Budweiser said, "Leave them alone Louie".
 
regards,
 

Isn't Hannah involved with the DL campaign as well? If so, how much attention/energy can QX employees realistically expect? Doesn't seem fair to either party...

 

[T5towbar]

 
Stop lying. It wasn't $12.  Probably closer to $20 when they got ear holed. Like I said, it was $17 in 2010 because I attained their policy guides, etc., and conducted a meeting in DEN after receiving a phone call from them.
They got hosed.  Considering the similarities, I think it is incredibly risky for JetBlue rampers to organize and risk all being contracted out 60 days later.  You hedge your argument on politics.  Well, you can't find any support for that line of argument as United contracted out 45 stations, Delta whacked thousands of jobs prior to the NW merger,  nobody complained about Frontier, and only Trump complained about Ford or Nabisco, but people are still eating the Nabisco treats.
 
Heck, unions can't even strike nowadays as the public sympathy is almost nill as we live in a 'me generation'. 
 
The question remains,  if JetBlue organizes, what is preventing management from whacking all stations just as similar size carriers have done?  The JetBlue rampers wanna know.  And please don't tell them that they can work at Swissport for $12. 
 
regards,
 

I hate to say it, but Tim is correct on a couple of fronts.
 
I have a relative walking the line right now in the Verizon strike, and it seems like the unions are losing the PR battle right now, since Verizon is blasting their position all over the place with out response from the union coalitions. I want them (the coalitions) to stand strong, just like the last time, but it is going to be tough. 
 
I've talked to some of the B6 rampers that I know, and it seems like they are ok with the situation that they are in. (hell a couple of our furloughed guys went over there and WN as well).  Organizing them would be a huge risk for them, with not a lot of reward.  I am and will be supporting anyone that organizes, but I don't know if the time is right for them to do so?
 
And Tim is also correct that the organizing in the district sucks. That you cannot deny...............

 

[Tim Nelson]

Oh look at who is trying to apply for a job now. Tim when you were the head of organizing for that very brief period in time didn't the IAM District pay you around $100,000?
If the District were to consider you again obviously because you hope they figure it would shut you up with these public displays, what would be your asking price for the job?
The AGC's make about $130,000 if I'm correct. Would you be asking for at least that much?
And if the District said that they wanted you to continue on with the JetBlue campaign would you tell them no since it might do to these people what you say? Or would you continue on because you're enjoying that fat paycheck?
It's blatantly apparent what you're trying to do here bro. You want a job.

lol. That makes no sense. While i maintain a mutual respectful relationship with sito, he knows i do not want a job. No, I would not assist with Jetblue because of 2 reasons:
1. personality conflicts. i cant work well with people that have no passion or charisma and only organize 9-5. Thats why i booted stassi off the airtran campaign.

2. I cant get around the question I asked you, which also applies to me. Jetblue will see almost complete anniliation (sp?) if they vote in a union now. Blame labor laws or whatever but the iam will never organize them. But if they do, they will b contracted out.

Better to go long term with delta as our comparables make a reasonable case and it is reasonable that they will be iam in less than 3 years.

regards,

 

[WeAAsles]

I hate to say it, but Tim is correct on a couple of fronts.
 
I have a relative walking the line right now in the Verizon strike, and it seems like the unions are losing the PR battle right now, since Verizon is blasting their position all over the place with out response from the union coalitions. I want them (the coalitions) to stand strong, just like the last time, but it is going to be tough. 
 
I've talked to some of the B6 rampers that I know, and it seems like they are ok with the situation that they are in. (hell a couple of our furloughed guys went over there and WN as well).  Organizing them would be a huge risk for them, with not a lot of reward.  I am and will be supporting anyone that organizes, but I don't know if the time is right for them to do so?
 
And Tim is also correct that the organizing in the district sucks. That you cannot deny...............

Here's the way I see it T5. Tim is a Union cancer and should be cut out if at all possible. Now if the District or the IAM in any capacity ever brings Tim in or hires him for anything, I'm going to start my own card drive here at AA. I'm going to gather as many cards as possible to oust the IAM and replace them with the TWU as a standalone and end the Association. I'll start online with my effort and from there bring cards onto my ramp. I'll take days off even to stand in the employee entranceways to explain why we need to get rid of the IAM. From there I'll fly back to DFW where I worked for 12 years and motivate them to sign cards as well drafting individuals who I know don't care for the Association anyway. I'm positive they'll do it. I'll even reach out to old friends back in LGA for them to get this started and they can work on gaining the support of the US guys in that station. 

And I'll have zero fear in doing this and saying why I'm doing it. I won't be a part of an organization that is afraid and coddles to someone like Tim Nelson. Not me.