2014 Pilot Discussion

[EastUS1]

"Concise language, absolute specifics, even at all reasonably unquestionable and even remotely comprehensible and specific contract language?....Nonsense!...Who ever needs such "trivial" details to be pre-determined anyway? Cue Nancy Pelosi: "We have to pass it to find out what's in it." Just trust them and all will no doubt be well....after all; hasn't that always proved to be the case?
 
"The Company proposes changing the “reasonably available” language to the “available promptly” which is the same language as in the Delta contract."...? This is NOT Delta's management we're dealing with, and not by even the longest of shots."

While others are debating arbitration and the contract, you obsess and spew gobbledygook.
 

 
Which is it? "You'se" just willfully chose to miss the above, or simply can't read? Consider all the holes in the MOU big enough to drive trucks through, how the company dealt with even the presumed 3% returns from LOA93, as well as the historically huge numbers of contract grievances of course. Understanding the nature of the opposition's the first step in making an intelligent choice of any kind here kid.

 

[Skymess]

I thought where it stood now the union either accepts the last offer for you without a vote or you go to arbitration if they don't accept it. The MOU kind of washes pie in the sky ideas of more down the toilet, no?

 

[Phoenix]

We are losing the 767s. That had nothing to do with contractural language. My guess is that bringing INTL and DOM together WILL cost some positions, but it won't be on our side of the house. Maybe it will even level the playing field somewhat... Who knows?

The 3 for 1 widebody protection was in MOU I. It's gone as will this offer if we fumble it. Elevating the A321s to 757 was a bargaining position, not a given.

 
A321 group III pay is not industry standard, though I do think it would be the right thing to do.  Our A321s carry more passengers than our 757... 
 
Of greater importance is the 5+ calendar day, which is industry standard.  There is no excuse for giving Parker his 7 industry standard concessions without requiring him to give us at least one industry standard contract improvement... the industry standard calendar day as an absolute minimum.... I just can't see selling for less than that.  

 

[Phoenix]

I thought where it stood now the union either accepts the last offer for you without a vote or you go to arbitration if they don't accept it. The MOU kind of washes pie in the sky ideas of more down the toilet, no?

 
The company made an offer.  The union either accepts it or makes a counter.  Company threats, deadlines, letters, and crew news campaigns don't change that.  If someone makes an offer you accept or counter.  Simple.  

 

[TBONEJ4J]

Geez, the boys signed on to LOA93 and the MOU in that fashion.

 
And the suckers used bankruptcy as the excuse while their knees were knocking as they embraced LOA93.  And the suckers jumped all over the MOU because, well because it came with an industry sub-standard pay raise and a glossy brochure.
 
And now the suckers will jump all over another industry sub-standard pay raise, while handing over work rules and concessions as yet unknown (bullet-points are not contractual terms, suckers). I can't figure why this time there's no glossy brochure, I thought that would be a necessity when not in bankruptcy.
 
The bullet-points will be the subject of a membership vote shortly. When it passes with a healthy majority of suckers voting in favor of an hourly payrate and nothing else, I give it a full 12 months before the angst begins when they realise that their peers at Delta and United are making way more than them while working less hours with better work rules.
 
Not to worry, the angst will only last for 8 years or so, or up to the sucker retiring.  We'll take it all back and then some in Contract 2024!
 
Suckers.

 

[Phoenix]

OMG! How the heck did you ever come up with THIS? John does us a favor and does a breakdown and all of a sudden it's the great USAPA "Who done it?"?

 
 
It is not his place to comment on things he is excluded from... excluded both in knowledge and authority.  How much did John get paid to do that?  Too bad Chip wasn't paid to co-sign it.  
 
It makes it appear like John is being used for another "Hummel rush to rescue" for management.  

 

[luvthe9]

And the suckers used bankruptcy as the excuse while their knees were knocking as they embraced LOA93.  And the suckers jumped all over the MOU because, well because it came with an industry sub-standard pay raise and a glossy brochure.
 
And now the suckers will jump all over another industry sub-standard pay raise, while handing over work rules and concessions as yet unknown (bullet-points are not contractual terms, suckers). I can't figure why this time there's no glossy brochure, I thought that would be a necessity when not in bankruptcy.
 
The bullet-points will be the subject of a membership vote shortly. When it passes with a healthy majority of suckers voting in favor of an hourly payrate and nothing else, I give it a full 12 months before the angst begins when they realise that their peers at Delta and United are making way more than them while working less hours with better work rules.
 
Not to worry, the angst will only last for 8 years or so, or up to the sucker retiring.  We'll take it all back and then some in Contract 2024!
 
Suckers.

  

I don't think you could use the term "suckered in" to describe the numbers that voted in favor of the MOU.

 

[Phoenix]

iSo, you are saying $1.8 BILLION is not enough money to buy $120 MILLION in concessions?
You need a new calculator...

 
 
If Parker offers to buy 7 concessions for $1.8 Billion then you can be pretty sure that they are worth at least $1.8B PLUS the insane payoff to Jerry Glass to get them.  Whoever told you that Parker would pay 20X the value is a liar, and has a motive.

 

[A320 Driver]

And the suckers used bankruptcy as the excuse while their knees were knocking as they embraced LOA93.  And the suckers jumped all over the MOU because, well because it came with an industry sub-standard pay raise and a glossy brochure.
 
And now the suckers will jump all over another industry sub-standard pay raise, while handing over work rules and concessions as yet unknown (bullet-points are not contractual terms, suckers). I can't figure why this time there's no glossy brochure, I thought that would be a necessity when not in bankruptcy.
 
The bullet-points will be the subject of a membership vote shortly. When it passes with a healthy majority of suckers voting in favor of an hourly payrate and nothing else, I give it a full 12 months before the angst begins when they realise that their peers at Delta and United are making way more than them while working less hours with better work rules.
 
Not to worry, the angst will only last for 8 years or so, or up to the sucker retiring.  We'll take it all back and then some in Contract 2024!
 
Suckers.

I can say with all honesty that I don't care what Delta makes as long as I am in the vicinity. You can make yourself crazy with this.

 

[luvthe9]

I can say with all honesty that I don't care what Delta makes as long as I am in the vicinity. You can make yourself crazy with this.

So vicinity means what to you, are you saying hourly pay only and don't care about QOL issues, just curious.

 

[A320 Driver]

So vicinity means what to you, are you saying hourly pay only and don't care about QOL issues, just curious.

There are parts of the Delta contract that are not as good as what we have. I am not dissatified with what we have. We agreed to it and I will live with it. I trust the negotiating committee. When they tell me this is the deal, then that is fine with me. LOA 93 is a perfect example of what happens when you don't pay attention and think you are smarter than everyone else you pay to advise you.

There is always the chance you leave money on the table. I don't agonize about it the way some of you do. I appreciate what I do, what I have, and what they pay me to do it.

 

[TBONEJ4J]

I can say with all honesty that I don't care what Delta makes as long as I am in the vicinity. You can make yourself crazy with this.

 
The proposal will put you in the vicinity, excluding PS, for about 12 months.  Thereafter you will not be anywhere near the vicinity. That's what the short-sighted approach means... unable to see past the short-term.. and unable to see past the initial pay-rate at time of voting 'Yes'.  Enjoy the vicinity of what Delta makes, excluding PS, while it lasts. Which will be about 12 months, which will be when the buyer's remorse and therefore angst sets in.

 

[PullUp]

Very little angst when you are able to pay the kid's college tuition, meet the car payments, and save a little, too.
I'm not envious of any forecasted probable pay hikes at a rival airline. I did not choose to work for Delta.
Actually, they were my last choice. But, more power to them. Our payraise will give them ammunition for their payraise and vice versa.
I am concerned about QOL and productivity terms in the contract. I think the LUS guys are taking a step backward in many respects.
 
Cheers.

 

[TBONEJ4J]

Very little angst when you are able to pay the kid's college tuition, meet the car payments, and save a little, too.
I'm not envious of any forecasted probable pay hikes at a rival airline. I did not choose to work for Delta.
Actually, they were my last choice. But, more power to them. Our payraise will give them ammunition for their payraise and vice versa.
I am concerned about QOL and productivity terms in the contract. I think the LUS guys are taking a step backward in many respects.
 
Cheers.

There's no one that doesn't like more money. This is true. Maybe angst is the wrong word for many, but for those who want to be in the vicinity of Delta pay I think it fairly describes how they'll feel about their pay relative to a peer at Delta a little over 12 months from now.
 
There are some who will vote 'No' for anything. There are a much larger number who will vote 'Yes' for anything with an increase in payrate, without ever considering whether that increase will ultimately result in not as much or less overall pay because of productivity changes along with degraded quality of life because of inferior work rules.
 
For me, I can pay the bills with what I earn right now. And save some too. And under the MTA I have a payraise coming January 1st, and 12 months after that I'll be getting an industry indexed payraise.
 
I too am concerned about QOL and productivity terms in any new contract and I am content with the terms of the current contract (MTA) until it expires or can be improved upon. Problem is all those terms and any improvements to them are being broadly ignored because at least 50%+1 are all about and/or can not see past a payrate.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Labeling the Busness Intelligence Update as fluff is also nearsighted until APA puts out valuations which either confirm or dispute what is in the update. I am pretty sure APA has already costed the items being asked by the company. Where is their shiny brochure? Where is their version of Compass Correction? How long does it take to issue a blast or an APA update correcting the numbers in the Owens update? Pilot sentiment has an inertia of its own. Wait too long and changing it becomes much more difficult, unless the BOD intends to ignore us.