2014 Pilot Discussion

[Phoenix]

Rock on, Scooter.  Enjoy that executive bonus program.
 

The more I see that the more disturbing it becomes.

 

[Phoenix]

Well you can just about rewrite that post and substitute East for West and West for East and make the same argument.First, the West never "lost" the Nicolau award in court. The courts have consistently said that the only to judge the fairness of a non-Nicolau seniority list is to actually have that list. Since USAPA failed to produce a ratified non-Nicolau list (or actually produce a penny of contractual gain for their pilots) there is no DFR yet. The courts have consistently warned USAPA that the arbitration list is "powerful evidence" of a fair result. And yet you deceive yourselves into thinking that the West "lost" and now USAPA can do whatever it wants.I have worked with Dana Eischen twice in seniority arbitrations and if you are wise you should consider him the smartest man you ever met or will ever meet in your lifetime. These webboard arguments and YouTube videos and personal attacks may make you feel good on the internet, but he will see through those silly arguments before you even make them. Look again at how Javits cut through Pauley's evasiveness on cross examination and got him to admit that he was the "new Nicolau" to unilaterally determine the East/West seniority list. You can fool yourselves in this little back-patting club you have here, but you saw the results from the Nicolau arbitration and it did not favor the "supremely confident" ones.If you can't see through the self interest of you volunteering the West pilots to take a dive and eat it for the good of the team, I would just suggest that if you feel that way, USAPA should just announce they will fight for the Nicolau award with all their might and then they could eliminate the parochial interests. That shoe doesn't feel too good when its on your foot does it?Like I said, I am certainly glad I will not have to stand in front of the arbitration panel and explain to three professional arbitrators that their work is just irrelevant. I mean what really matters is what the pilots that are in the majority think, right? So you tell them that you are free to ignore their work because you are so much smarter than them. I think I will come and watch that just to see the expression on their faces. It should be priceless.

You argue a lot of useless crap.

 

[Phoenix]

I am not saying that at all. It's you that are ignoring the facts. The panel will not "punish" you. They will order the East/West list in a fair and equitable way. That matter has already been decided by George Nicolau and there is no reason to believe they will find any differently. No one gets punished and no one got punished by George Nicolau. It is just you didn't get your way and so you reacted like children and it felt like punishment to you. You all are just so self absorbed that you cannot open your eyes to alternative viewpoints. Your MEC led you down a blind path in the last arbitration and now the USAPA LLC is heading you down that same blind path. The fault lies in you and with no one else.The United MEC was determined not to follow that same path. They faced up to the hard issues and did not stick to a straight date of hire list. They used the hybrid model and gave the arbitrators the path to adjust their arbitration proposal if required. They did not lie to their pilots and tell them they were "supremely confident" they would get date of hire. Instead they told they definitively would not get date of hire, but at the same time they came up with a credible plan B to give to the arbitrators. The East deluded themselves and never came up with a Plan B. Nicolau tried to come up with his own Plan B but he needed more help from the East pilots. The East pilots refused to give him that help so they had to live with what he came up with. You were not punished; you failed to provide the assistance he required and then had to live with the results he could derive.So someone at some time is going to have to come up with a rational way to order the East West list. Your problem now is that you are telling arbitrators that one of the giants of the arbitration world is a senile old coot and that arbitration results are merely suggestions that are subject to approval by the pilot majority. As I said before, I am happy to not be trying to make that argument.Go back and read your opening brief that USAPA prepared for this preliminary arbitration. In there they talk about how arbitrators are bound to go by prior decisions. Now they are going to have to go back and tell the new arbitrators that they need to disregard the prior arbitration. Let me know how that works out for you.

You still argue a lot of useless crap.

The west will not be granted their request for a merger committee and the Nic will never be used, but Marty will still be rich.

 

[Claxon]

You still argue a lot of useless crap.
The west will not be granted their request for a merger committee and the Nic will never be used, but Marty will still be rich.

And west pilots and John Prater bear the blame for USAirways leaving ALPA.
2004 hire america west pilot Eric Ferguson helped remove ALPA
Quite a legacy Eric.

 

[Phoenix]

And west pilots and John Prater bear the blame for USAirways leaving ALPA.
2004 hire america west pilot Eric Ferguson helped remove ALPA
Quite a legacy Eric.

"Blame"?? Blame seems kind of negative... If Eric would like to claim "credit" for dislodging the ALPA leech, I could accept "partial credit".. He could use a little positive credit nowadays, and it is a festive season.

 

[Metroyet]

You still argue a lot of useless crap.
The west will not be granted their request for a merger committee and the Nic will never be used, but Marty will still be rich.

USAPA is openly hostile to the West and they have zero DFR responsibility. Sure. You'll be able to dictate their seniority. You've been so successful so far! HA!!

 

[nycbusdriver]

PHX based pilots have the least desirable position in the airline. A new hire going to PHX is a career killing assignment. 

 
Depending on how the dust settles, if PHX is indeed a "career killing assignment," it will only be career killing for those who choose to stay with the New American.  Most will simply move on to Delta, United, SWA, FedEx, or UPS, using their time at American as a stepping stone.

 

[Pi brat]

USAPA is openly hostile to the West and they have zero DFR responsibility. Sure. You'll be able to dictate their seniority. You've been so successful so far! HA!!

They never tried to dictate anyone's seniority. They presented the company with a proposal, just as Fruend said the Nic was. Did you miss that part in the hearings? Anyway, it looks like an arbitration panel will dictate our seniority, no matter how many committees we have.

 

[end_of_alpa]

USAPA was born out of the disaster called ALPA.
There is no Nicolau Award.
east pilots upgrade at tremendous rates.
Leonidas has cost west pilots millions. PHX based pilots have the least desirable position in the airline. A new hire going to PHX is a career killing assignment. All because 2004 hire Eric Ferguson gambled and lost.
He was offered the Nicolau Award. He passed.

 
 

Very well put!

 
 

ALPA cheerleader Oscarjazz is still smarting from the abject failure of ALPA to fairly deal with seniority. Most seasoned pilots here have seen the UAL group alter seniority to their favor, and change the process. He is part of the failure. He smugly states with a straight face putting a never furloughed 17 yr east pilot with a new hire west is fair.
Oscarjazz and John Prater had to walk into the Herndon office the day after their gross miscalculation of a group which would not stand for such a travesty. Must have been tough facing the staff you would soon be letting go. Oscarjazz is the poster boy of ancient ALPA failures. His doctrine was rejected when the rest of the world could not believe it. Only the ALPA politburo could look east pilots in the face and call Nicolau fair. The line pilots knew better. Now jazz has to attempt to justify his flawed award. It cost his corrupt organization millions.

 
 

Maybe Oscar can tell us why the west turned the NIC down when we offered it to them, not one westie has answered that yet.


Let's hope Delta wakes up and dumps ALPO, Geez, I even sent a couple of hundred to the DPA.

 
 

You still argue a lot of useless crap.

The west will not be granted their request for a merger committee and the Nic will never be used, but Marty will still be rich.

DITTO TO ALL AND TO ALL (USAPA members) A GOOD NITE AND A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR!
 
MERRY XMAS!

 

[Metroyet]

They never tried to dictate anyone's seniority. .

You're kidding right?

 

[Phoenix]

USAPA is openly hostile to the West and they have zero DFR responsibility. Sure. You'll be able to dictate their seniority. You've been so successful so far! HA!!

Count down clock...

T-28 days

 

[Claxon]

USAPA is openly hostile to the West and they have zero DFR responsibility. Sure. You'll be able to dictate their seniority. You've been so successful so far! HA!!

They should be openly hostile to the west. The west seniority of 17 yr active being placed with a west new hire should be met with hostility.

 

[FL430]

Well you can just about rewrite that post and substitute East for West and West for East and make the same argument.First, the West never "lost" the Nicolau award in court. The courts have consistently said that the only to judge the fairness of a non-Nicolau seniority list is to actually have that list. Since USAPA failed to produce a ratified non-Nicolau list (or actually produce a penny of contractual gain for their pilots) there is no DFR yet. The courts have consistently warned USAPA that the arbitration list is "powerful evidence" of a fair result. And yet you deceive yourselves into thinking that the West "lost" and now USAPA can do whatever it wants.I have worked with Dana Eischen twice in seniority arbitrations and if you are wise you should consider him the smartest man you ever met or will ever meet in your lifetime. These webboard arguments and YouTube videos and personal attacks may make you feel good on the internet, but he will see through those silly arguments before you even make them. Look again at how Javits cut through Pauley's evasiveness on cross examination and got him to admit that he was the "new Nicolau" to unilaterally determine the East/West seniority list. You can fool yourselves in this little back-patting club you have here, but you saw the results from the Nicolau arbitration and it did not favor the "supremely confident" ones.If you can't see through the self interest of you volunteering the West pilots to take a dive and eat it for the good of the team, I would just suggest that if you feel that way, USAPA should just announce they will fight for the Nicolau award with all their might and then they could eliminate the parochial interests. That shoe doesn't feel too good when its on your foot does it?Like I said, I am certainly glad I will not have to stand in front of the arbitration panel and explain to three professional arbitrators that their work is just irrelevant. I mean what really matters is what the pilots that are in the majority think, right? So you tell them that you are free to ignore their work because you are so much smarter than them. I think I will come and watch that just to see the expression on their faces. It should be priceless.

So Oscar, why is it that no-one uses a single arbitrator anymore? Why did you not use nicolau during your sli? Why is it that Nicolau has not participated in any seniority arbitrations anymore? Hmmmmm

 

[FL430]

Count down clock...
T-28 days

Come on now, that's prechills job! She's bound to get one right eventually.

Have you ever wondered about the new use of 3arbs? They look to their left and right and have to realize the reason there are three of them there is because of old Nic. Labor unions are getting bigger and more powerful because of consolidation, if three arbs screw up another sli their days as arbitrators will be numbered. At least as sli arbiters, as it Is doubtful if many more mergers will be approved anyway.

I personally wish we didn't have arbitrators. How many does labor win, maybe 10 percent? I would be more comfortable flipping a coin, at least we would win 50% and save the expense of those fools anyway.

 

[FL430]

You're kidding right?

And you are the same guy that has been on here for years predicting the exact opposite of what actually happens. Still eat up with that hate huh? Make an appointment with Dr Phil, you might start enjoying life.