2014 Pilot Discussion

[Claxon]

west pilots fall for APA and American Airlines management " concern" for their welfare. American Airlines is so concerned for west pilots welfare, they insist on zero profit sharing.
west pilots, if your company was so concerned, they would offer profit sharing. It is all a ruse.
Divide and conquer. At its best.

 

[dariencc]

The Delta communique added: The end of profit-sharing at American comes as company executives boast that they will become the most profitable airline next year. "I think were going to lead the industry in pre-tax profit margins next year," Scott Kirby, American's president, told Wall Street analysts during the company's quarterly earnings conference call in October. Parker added: "We said out-of-the-box that if we're going to be the largest airline in the world, we should be the most profitable "

 
Rock on, Scooter.  Enjoy that executive bonus program.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgjcyH4Ghk

 

[oscarjazz]

The east merger committee will propose a list, not determine a list. The arbitrators will determine the final list composition. The key word is list, as in one list covering 15,000 pilots using a single methodology which is F&E and complies with the intent of McCaskill Bond, the MOU and the Protocal Agreement.

In contrast, the west merger committee will focus on resurrecting what they lost in court, hoping for sympathy from the arbs. Rather than proposing a universal formula which addresses and serves all American pilots, they will focus on their parochial self interests, at the expense of all LUS pilots.

Well you can just about rewrite that post and substitute East for West and West for East and make the same argument.

First, the West never "lost" the Nicolau award in court. The courts have consistently said that the only to judge the fairness of a non-Nicolau seniority list is to actually have that list. Since USAPA failed to produce a ratified non-Nicolau list (or actually produce a penny of contractual gain for their pilots) there is no DFR yet. The courts have consistently warned USAPA that the arbitration list is "powerful evidence" of a fair result. And yet you deceive yourselves into thinking that the West "lost" and now USAPA can do whatever it wants.

I have worked with Dana Eischen twice in seniority arbitrations and if you are wise you should consider him the smartest man you ever met or will ever meet in your lifetime. These webboard arguments and YouTube videos and personal attacks may make you feel good on the internet, but he will see through those silly arguments before you even make them. Look again at how Javits cut through Pauley's evasiveness on cross examination and got him to admit that he was the "new Nicolau" to unilaterally determine the East/West seniority list. You can fool yourselves in this little back-patting club you have here, but you saw the results from the Nicolau arbitration and it did not favor the "supremely confident" ones.

If you can't see through the self interest of you volunteering the West pilots to take a dive and eat it for the good of the team, I would just suggest that if you feel that way, USAPA should just announce they will fight for the Nicolau award with all their might and then they could eliminate the parochial interests. That shoe doesn't feel too good when its on your foot does it?

Like I said, I am certainly glad I will not have to stand in front of the arbitration panel and explain to three professional arbitrators that their work is just irrelevant. I mean what really matters is what the pilots that are in the majority think, right? So you tell them that you are free to ignore their work because you are so much smarter than them. I think I will come and watch that just to see the expression on their faces. It should be priceless.

 

[Pi brat]

Like I said, I am certainly glad I will not have to stand in front of the arbitration panel and explain to three professional arbitrators that their work is just irrelevant. I mean what really matters is what the pilots that are in the majority think, right? So you tell them that you are free to ignore their work because you are so much smarter than them. I think I will come and watch that just to see the expression on their faces. It should be priceless.

So you're saying that the panel will ignore the facts before them and just punish us for taking on Nicolau's work? That the will ignore the MOU, the PA and any effects it may have on the innocent party-the AA pilots? Maybe your right, a lot of guys thought that was exactly what Nicolau did.

 

[oscarjazz]

So you're saying that the panel will ignore the facts before them and just punish us for taking on Nicolau's work? That the will ignore the MOU, the PA and any effects it may have on the innocent party-the AA pilots? Maybe your right, a lot of guys thought that was exactly what Nicolau did.

I am not saying that at all. It's you that are ignoring the facts. The panel will not "punish" you. They will order the East/West list in a fair and equitable way. That matter has already been decided by George Nicolau and there is no reason to believe they will find any differently. No one gets punished and no one got punished by George Nicolau. It is just you didn't get your way and so you reacted like children and it felt like punishment to you. You all are just so self absorbed that you cannot open your eyes to alternative viewpoints. Your MEC led you down a blind path in the last arbitration and now the USAPA LLC is heading you down that same blind path. The fault lies in you and with no one else.

The United MEC was determined not to follow that same path. They faced up to the hard issues and did not stick to a straight date of hire list. They used the hybrid model and gave the arbitrators the path to adjust their arbitration proposal if required. They did not lie to their pilots and tell them they were "supremely confident" they would get date of hire. Instead they told they definitively would not get date of hire, but at the same time they came up with a credible plan B to give to the arbitrators. The East deluded themselves and never came up with a Plan B. Nicolau tried to come up with his own Plan B but he needed more help from the East pilots. The East pilots refused to give him that help so they had to live with what he came up with. You were not punished; you failed to provide the assistance he required and then had to live with the results he could derive.

So someone at some time is going to have to come up with a rational way to order the East West list. Your problem now is that you are telling arbitrators that one of the giants of the arbitration world is a senile old coot and that arbitration results are merely suggestions that are subject to approval by the pilot majority. As I said before, I am happy to not be trying to make that argument.

Go back and read your opening brief that USAPA prepared for this preliminary arbitration. In there they talk about how arbitrators are bound to go by prior decisions. Now they are going to have to go back and tell the new arbitrators that they need to disregard the prior arbitration. Let me know how that works out for you.

 

[Pi brat]

I am not saying that at all. It's you that are ignoring the facts. The panel will not "punish" you. They will order the East/West list in a fair and equitable way. That matter has already been decided by George Nicolau and there is no reason to believe they will find any differently. No one gets punished and no one got punished by George Nicolau. It is just you didn't get your way and so you reacted like children and it felt like punishment to you. You all are just so self absorbed that you cannot open your eyes to alternative viewpoints. Your MEC led you down a blind path in the last arbitration and now the USAPA LLC is heading you down that same blind path. The fault lies in you and with no one else.The United MEC was determined not to follow that same path. They faced up to the hard issues and did not stick to a straight date of hire list. They used the hybrid model and gave the arbitrators the path to adjust their arbitration proposal if required. They did not lie to their pilots and tell them they were "supremely confident" they would get date of hire. Instead they told they definitively would not get date of hire, but at the same time they came up with a credible plan B to give to the arbitrators. The East deluded themselves and never came up with a Plan B. Nicolau tried to come up with his own Plan B but he needed more help from the East pilots. The East pilots refused to give him that help so they had to live with what he came up with. You were not punished; you failed to provide the assistance he required and then had to live with the results he could derive.So someone at some time is going to have to come up with a rational way to order the East West list. Your problem now is that you are telling arbitrators that one of the giants of the arbitration world is a senile old coot and that arbitration results are merely suggestions that are subject to approval by the pilot majority. As I said before, I am happy to not be trying to make that argument.Go back and read your opening brief that USAPA prepared for this preliminary arbitration. In there they talk about how arbitrators are bound to go by prior decisions. Now they are going to have to go back and tell the new arbitrators that they need to disregard the prior arbitration. Let me know how that works out for you.

I'm listening and asking questions. I have considered other outcomes besides the party line. It seems to me that you are the emotional one. You never replied to my counterpoint about the effect on the AA pilots.

 

[oscarjazz]

I'm listening and asking questions. I have considered other outcomes besides the party line. It seems to me that you are the emotional one. You never replied to my counterpoint about the effect on the AA pilots.

I am not emotional at all, none of this affects me in any fashion. You guys just don't like hearing the truth. What was your question about the AA pilots?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Oscar Jazz. we are sorry, never knew! coming in second in your home ec boiling water competition could have such a drastic personality effect. We are here for you! You and your boy LEE M.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Well you can just about rewrite that post and substitute East for West and West for East and make the same argument.First, the West never "lost" the Nicolau award in court. The courts have consistently said that the only to judge the fairness of a non-Nicolau seniority list is to actually have that list. Since USAPA failed to produce a ratified non-Nicolau list (or actually produce a penny of contractual gain for their pilots) there is no DFR yet. The courts have consistently warned USAPA that the arbitration list is "powerful evidence" of a fair result. And yet you deceive yourselves into thinking that the West "lost" and now USAPA can do whatever it wants.

What the west has consistently lost in court is the implementation of the Nic. I acknowledge that the Nic is still out there, just like Confederate money. The courts have ruled that it is not implementable given the criteria set out by the 2005 TA, which has now been eclipsed by the MOU. Furthermore, there is no non-Nic list to judge yet. We will be entering an adversarial SLI with APA shortly. There is no need, nor is it prudent, for the USAPA MC to show all their cards at this juncture. Finally, I don't claim that USAPA can do whatever it wants. It will comply with McCaskill Bond, the MOU and the PA. It will propose a list which reflects the reality and the status quo of 2015, not your nostalgia for 2005, and the arbitration to come will also constitute powerful evidence of a fair result and will reflect where we are today, not ten years ago.

I have worked with Dana Eischen twice in seniority arbitrations and if you are wise you should consider him the smartest man you ever met or will ever meet in your lifetime. These webboard arguments and YouTube videos and personal attacks may make you feel good on the internet, but he will see through those silly arguments before you even make them. Look again at how Javits cut through Pauley's evasiveness on cross examination and got him to admit that he was the "new Nicolau" to unilaterally determine the East/West seniority list. You can fool yourselves in this little back-patting club you have here, but you saw the results from the Nicolau arbitration and it did not favor the "supremely confident" ones.If you can't see through the self interest of you volunteering the West pilots to take a dive and eat it for the good of the team, I would just suggest that if you feel that way, USAPA should just announce they will fight for the Nicolau award with all their might and then they could eliminate the parochial interests. That shoe doesn't feel too good when its on your foot does it?Like I said, I am certainly glad I will not have to stand in front of the arbitration panel and explain to three professional arbitrators that their work is just irrelevant. I mean what really matters is what the pilots that are in the majority think, right? So you tell them that you are free to ignore their work because you are so much smarter than them. I think I will come and watch that just to see the expression on their faces. It should be priceless.

Jess Pauley used the term 'sweat equity' on several occasions during his testimony. George Nicolau looked at that sweat equity on the part of the east pilots and then discarded it. I consider that either punitive or lazy work, take your pick. That 17:1 grotesque disparity was the spark that became the flame which continues to inspire the east to fight the good fight.

Have a Merry Christmas

 

[Claxon]

I am not saying that at all. It's you that are ignoring the facts. The panel will not "punish" you. They will order the East/West list in a fair and equitable way. That matter has already been decided by George Nicolau and there is no reason to believe they will find any differently. No one gets punished and no one got punished by George Nicolau. It is just you didn't get your way and so you reacted like children and it felt like punishment to you. You all are just so self absorbed that you cannot open your eyes to alternative viewpoints. Your MEC led you down a blind path in the last arbitration and now the USAPA LLC is heading you down that same blind path. The fault lies in you and with no one else.The United MEC was determined not to follow that same path. They faced up to the hard issues and did not stick to a straight date of hire list. They used the hybrid model and gave the arbitrators the path to adjust their arbitration proposal if required. They did not lie to their pilots and tell them they were "supremely confident" they would get date of hire. Instead they told they definitively would not get date of hire, but at the same time they came up with a credible plan B to give to the arbitrators. The East deluded themselves and never came up with a Plan B. Nicolau tried to come up with his own Plan B but he needed more help from the East pilots. The East pilots refused to give him that help so they had to live with what he came up with. You were not punished; you failed to provide the assistance he required and then had to live with the results he could derive.So someone at some time is going to have to come up with a rational way to order the East West list. Your problem now is that you are telling arbitrators that one of the giants of the arbitration world is a senile old coot and that arbitration results are merely suggestions that are subject to approval by the pilot majority. As I said before, I am happy to not be trying to make that argument.Go back and read your opening brief that USAPA prepared for this preliminary arbitration. In there they talk about how arbitrators are bound to go by prior decisions. Now they are going to have to go back and tell the new arbitrators that they need to disregard the prior arbitration. Let me know how that works out for you.

ALPA cheerleader Oscarjazz is still smarting from the abject failure of ALPA to fairly deal with seniority. Most seasoned pilots here have seen the UAL group alter seniority to their favor, and change the process. He is part of the failure. He smugly states with a straight face putting a never furloughed 17 yr east pilot with a new hire west is fair.
Oscarjazz and John Prater had to walk into the Herndon office the day after their gross miscalculation of a group which would not stand for such a travesty. Must have been tough facing the staff you would soon be letting go. Oscarjazz is the poster boy of ancient ALPA failures. His doctrine was rejected when the rest of the world could not believe it. Only the ALPA politburo could look east pilots in the face and call Nicolau fair. The line pilots knew better. Now jazz has to attempt to justify his flawed award. It cost his corrupt organization millions.

 

[Metroyet]

ALPA cheerleader Oscarjazz is still smarting from the abject failure of ALPA to fairly deal with seniority. Most seasoned pilots here have seen the UAL group alter seniority to their favor, and change the process. He is part of the failure. He smugly states with a straight face putting a never furloughed 17 yr east pilot with a new hire west is fair.
Oscarjazz and John Prater had to walk into the Herndon office the day after their gross miscalculation of a group which would not stand for such a travesty. Must have been tough facing the staff you would soon be letting go. Oscarjazz is the poster boy of ancient ALPA failures. His doctrine was rejected when the rest of the world could not believe it. Only the ALPA politburo could look east pilots in the face and call Nicolau fair. The line pilots knew better. Now jazz has to attempt to justify his flawed award. It cost his corrupt organization millions.

Chill out Mike. Time for your bi-polar meds. Your billion dollar disaster called USAPA is nothing anymore. Embrace it!

 

[Claxon]

Chill out Mike. Time for your bi-polar meds. Your billion dollar disaster called USAPA is nothing anymore. Embrace it!

USAPA was born out of the disaster called ALPA.
There is no Nicolau Award.
east pilots upgrade at tremendous rates.
Leonidas has cost west pilots millions. PHX based pilots have the least desirable position in the airline. A new hire going to PHX is a career killing assignment. All because 2004 hire Eric Ferguson gambled and lost.
He was offered the Nicolau Award. He passed.

 

[luvthe9]

ALPA cheerleader Oscarjazz is still smarting from the abject failure of ALPA to fairly deal with seniority. Most seasoned pilots here have seen the UAL group alter seniority to their favor, and change the process. He is part of the failure. He smugly states with a straight face putting a never furloughed 17 yr east pilot with a new hire west is fair.
Oscarjazz and John Prater had to walk into the Herndon office the day after their gross miscalculation of a group which would not stand for such a travesty. Must have been tough facing the staff you would soon be letting go. Oscarjazz is the poster boy of ancient ALPA failures. His doctrine was rejected when the rest of the world could not believe it. Only the ALPA politburo could look east pilots in the face and call Nicolau fair. The line pilots knew better. Now jazz has to attempt to justify his flawed award. It cost his corrupt organization millions.

Very well put!

 

[Claxon]

Oscarjazz will tell you with a straight face that Nicolau produced a fair award. Many arbitrators acknowledge not all awards are fair, and many were surprised at the Nicolau Product.
ALPA " neutrals" interested in positioning themselves heavily influenced him for their own benefit. The fact the award was so onerous that an entire airline group voted ALPA out speaks volumes. Oscarjazz and the entrenched ALPA politburo were taken by storm after they refused to correct the award even after WYE.
Deal with it Oscar. Your group stepped on their cranks and got launched.

 

[luvthe9]

Oscarjazz will tell you with a straight face that Nicolau produced a fair award. Many arbitrators acknowledge not all awards are fair, and many were surprised at the Nicolau Product.
ALPA " neutrals" interested in positioning themselves heavily influenced him for their own benefit. The fact the award was so onerous that an entire airline group voted ALPA out speaks volumes. Oscarjazz and the entrenched ALPA politburo were taken by storm after they refused to correct the award even after WYE.
Deal with it Oscar. Your group stepped on their cranks and got launched.

Maybe Oscar can tell us why the west turned the NIC down when we offered it to them, not one westie has answered that yet.


Let's hope Delta wakes up and dumps ALPO, Geez, I even sent a couple of hundred to the DPA.