2014 Pilot Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

I have no doubt USTUPID already has a complaint in the can to file immediately following their defeat. USAPA is nothing. Nothing. The APA is the new 800# gorilla that will do whatever the hell it wants. It wants the West pilots to have a seat. Period. There is only one concievable reason the East is fighting so hard to deny the West pilots a voice...and everybody knows exactly what that is. Such Cowardice....

Well see.

 

[luvthe9]

I have no doubt USTUPID already has a complaint in the can to file immediately following their defeat. USAPA is nothing. Nothing.
....

"Nothing" seems to be keeping you locked in PHX and will be for quite a while and the rest of us are moving upward all the time. You are an idiot along with the rest of the AFO's that have destroyed the careers of west pilots.

Remember one year captains and new hires in wide body's, oh well, thought you would have learned by now.

 

[oscarjazz]

Is the decision out?
 
I love how all you guys say how these future events will go so definitively. I wish I was that confident about the future.
 
I actually see fairness in allowing the west a committee. After all, we know it's three lists, so it's logical that three parties represent them. I even suggested that to Humel. But the problem I see with it is that it's illogical, under MB, for the APA to be able to dictate that, and USAPA doesn't agree. Having one union dictate things is what got us MB! I think USAPA laid out a pretty good case for the legal reason of the west not getting a committee, and the rest for the fairness. We'll see who rules. I won't be placing a bet.
 
So jazz, since you're on the outside looking in, give me your perspective on this. I read the transcripts. Pauley was talking about the loss of leverage against AA if we use 3 merger committees. I see that for the west, but not the east. If we use three lists, and three merger committees, what does each one bring to the table? The west has no widebodies, one base, and most of it's pilots were hired pre-2005. What will the argue that they bring to the table? That's a big part of the award, right? Then we have the argument that the arbitrators won't like what we did to Nicolau's name. They might be right there, and if it didn't keep them from doing their job they may use it. But, there are some pretty much essential tenants of SLI-no bump, no flush and no reordering of the current lists. With that, the way I see it, if the panel uses the Nic, they will have to essentially give extra credit to the west guys that don't hold the higher positions that the Nic would have given them, and leave the east guys in those positions because they do have them. So essentially, US would be getting almost double the job credit, thus harming the AA guys. I just don't see them doing that to the AA guys.
 
In some ways I see it being easier for USAPA with three merger committees. They can take and even harder stance. Go in and say "This was our list, this was our fleet at the time of the merger. We have all this attrition on our side, look at our projected attrition, look at our hiring."
 
 
Another interesting year ahead.

My perspective is formed from a long line of arbitration decisions that hold that once a merger occurs, the fates of the employees are forever changed from their standalone fates. Therefore, when looking at "snapshot" of where the parties are, the date is almost always very close to the merger date. Therefore, anything that occurred to the East and West after 2005 is a result of a merged company. Despite the wrangling that goes on here, there is no person in the universe that could say what America West or the old US Airways would have looked like today absent the merger. In fact, most speculation is hopelessly tainted by self interest amongst the parties. ("You would have folded", "no you would have folded", etc, etc, etc)

That means you are merging two systems, American and US Airways (East and West). The equities that are brought to the merger from the East and West are combined and will be indistinguishable for the arbitration panel. In the same fashion that you would not prejudice the DCA base because they are narrow body only, you would not prejudice the PHX base for the same reason.

If you look at merging seniority lists, the actual methodology involves a two step process; creating slots based on a certain equity (status and category, longevity, shoe size, etc) and then filling in those slots with pilot names based on their pre merger seniority. For example, when you merge a list via status and category you create slots based on the group's jobs (A330 Capt, 757 Capt, etc) and then you fill in those slots with pilots names in seniority order. Therefore the #1 guy is slotted into a widebody captain job even if that pilot happens to fly A320 and so on.

When merging the lists of American and US Airways (East and West) you will follow the same process. You will merge slots together and then fill in those slots with the names of pilots. Therefore the only dispute really left amongst the East and West, is what names will go in which slots.

There was a whole line of questioning that Freund gave Pauley about breaking down this process. Pauley evaded answering the question as long as he could, but Javits stepped in and forced him to answer. Basically, if you start with the 15,000 names of the merged list and then remove only the American pilots, all you will have left is a list of East and West pilots in some order. Hence the statement that Pauley is now the new George Nicolau to determine which names go in which order and that East/West list.

So how do you determine the order of names on the East/West list? Well, that's the sticking point isn't it. Of course the East pilots want to unilaterally determine that list. Despite the "let's work together" front they put up at the arbitration, the entire world has seen that the East pilots think their numerical superiority allows them to unilaterally determine what that list would be. Every offer of "let's work together" comes with the pre condition that the Nicolau list will be modified or eliminated to the benefit of the East pilots. That is similar to a robber "negotiating" with you to determine how much he is going to steal from you.

My opinion is that in order to determine the East/West list, you have to go back to the conditions that George Nicolau faced back in the original arbitration. The East pilots are going to look the new arbitrators in the face and tell them that their work is not important, because whatever an arbitrator rules is worthless, the majority of pilots can overrule them and do whatever they feel like. I would not want to be making that argument.

In the end, almost everyone sees that if you have this dispute about how to order seniority lists, each side needs a separate say in that process. Or, you need to have a single designated representative that faces the penalty of DFR if they don't treat all pilots fairly. Right now, USAPA does not have a DFR to anyone anywhere. Therefore, either the APA alone will determine the East/West list or you will need two separate parties to figure that out. After participating in three seniority arbitrations very closely I am hesitant to read minds, but I can't see how you can be fair to the West pilots without giving them their own committee. I believe that point was made overwhelmingly at the just completed arbitration and that USAPA's arguments were based on misstating the law and what had occurred previously.

 

[end_of_alpa]

My perspective is formed from a long line of arbitration decisions that hold that once a merger occurs, the fates of the employees are forever changed from their standalone fates. Therefore, when looking at "snapshot" of where the parties are, the date is almost always very close to the merger date. Therefore, anything that occurred to the East and West after 2005 is a result of a merged company. Despite the wrangling that goes on here, there is no person in the universe that could say what America West or the old US Airways would have looked like today absent the merger. In fact, most speculation is hopelessly tainted by self interest amongst the parties. ("You would have folded", "no you would have folded", etc, etc, etc)That means you are merging two systems, American and US Airways (East and West). The equities that are brought to the merger from the East and West are combined and will be indistinguishable for the arbitration panel. In the same fashion that you would not prejudice the DCA base because they are narrow body only, you would not prejudice the PHX base for the same reason.If you look at merging seniority lists, the actual methodology involves a two step process; creating slots based on a certain equity (status and category, longevity, shoe size, etc) and then filling in those slots with pilot names based on their pre merger seniority. For example, when you merge a list via status and category you create slots based on the group's jobs (A330 Capt, 757 Capt, etc) and then you fill in those slots with pilots names in seniority order. Therefore the #1 guy is slotted into a widebody captain job even if that pilot happens to fly A320 and so on.When merging the lists of American and US Airways (East and West) you will follow the same process. You will merge slots together and then fill in those slots with the names of pilots. Therefore the only dispute really left amongst the East and West, is what names will go in which slots.There was a whole line of questioning that Freund gave Pauley about breaking down this process. Pauley evaded answering the question as long as he could, but Javits stepped in and forced him to answer. Basically, if you start with the 15,000 names of the merged list and then remove only the American pilots, all you will have left is a list of East and West pilots in some order. Hence the statement that Pauley is now the new George Nicolau to determine which names go in which order and that East/West list.So how do you determine the order of names on the East/West list? Well, that's the sticking point isn't it. Of course the East pilots want to unilaterally determine that list. Despite the "let's work together" front they put up at the arbitration, the entire world has seen that the East pilots think their numerical superiority allows them to unilaterally determine what that list would be. Every offer of "let's work together" comes with the pre condition that the Nicolau list will be modified or eliminated to the benefit of the East pilots. That is similar to a robber "negotiating" with you to determine how much he is going to steal from you.My opinion is that in order to determine the East/West list, you have to go back to the conditions that George Nicolau faced back in the original arbitration. The East pilots are going to look the new arbitrators in the face and tell them that their work is not important, because whatever an arbitrator rules is worthless, the majority of pilots can overrule them and do whatever they feel like. I would not want to be making that argument.In the end, almost everyone sees that if you have this dispute about how to order seniority lists, each side needs a separate say in that process. Or, you need to have a single designated representative that faces the penalty of DFR if they don't treat all pilots fairly. Right now, USAPA does not have a DFR to anyone anywhere. Therefore, either the APA alone will determine the East/West list or you will need two separate parties to figure that out. After participating in three seniority arbitrations very closely I am hesitant to read minds, but I can't see how you can be fair to the West pilots without giving them their own committee. I believe that point was made overwhelmingly at the just completed arbitration and that USAPA's arguments were based on misstating the law and what had occurred previously.

Believe what you want. Statutory/Court already heard it and it's a statutory issue NOT a DFR issue. That's been settled.

 

[Metroyet]

Believe what you want. Statutory/Court already heard it and it's a statutory issue NOT a DFR issue. That's been settled.

The West is owed a DFR by SOMEONE. USAPA...beyond a shadow of a doubt....does not owe them one. You're never going to escape that fact. Even if this Arb goes USAPA's way, (highly unlikely) the APA and the Company are still legally mandated to provide a fair process. Nobody agrees that allowing USAPA to unilaterally dicate the new seniority list is even in the ball park of what would be considered a fair process. In fact, Jess Pauly testified that the Nic award WAS A FAIR PROCESS.  Regardless of how any of this plays out, USAPA will lose. You will never determine the E/W seniority list. The APA will. They can simply change whatever agreement you think you may have had with the company and simply deliver the Nic award on a silver platter. There's nothing you can do about it. Although, I love to see how much money USAPA is spending...it puts those 4 "national" officer idiots that much closer to personal Bankruptcy and prison.

 

[luvthe9]

The West is owed a DFR by SOMEONE"....................? They can simply change whatever agreement you think you may have had with the company and simply deliver the Nic award on a silver platter. There's nothing you can do about it. Although, I love to see how much money USAPA is spending...it puts those 4 "national" officer idiots that much closer to personal Bankruptcy and prison.

WOW, you are one delusional person, think before you write.

 

[nevergiveup]

The West is owed a DFR by SOMEONE. USAPA...beyond a shadow of a doubt....does not owe them one. You're never going to escape that fact. Even if this Arb goes USAPA's way, (highly unlikely) the APA and the Company are still legally mandated to provide a fair process. Nobody agrees that allowing USAPA to unilaterally dicate the new seniority list is even in the ball park of what would be considered a fair process. In fact, Jess Pauly testified that the Nic award WAS A FAIR PROCESS.  Regardless of how any of this plays out, USAPA will lose. You will never determine the E/W seniority list. The APA will. They can simply change whatever agreement you think you may have had with the company and simply deliver the Nic award on a silver platter. There's nothing you can do about it. Although, I love to see how much money USAPA is spending...it puts those 4 "national" officer idiots that much closer to personal Bankruptcy and prison.

Sue ALPA, they have lots of $.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The West is owed a DFR by SOMEONE. USAPA...beyond a shadow of a doubt....does not owe them one. You're never going to escape that fact. Even if this Arb goes USAPA's way, (highly unlikely) the APA and the Company are still legally mandated to provide a fair process. Nobody agrees that allowing USAPA to unilaterally dicate the new seniority list is even in the ball park of what would be considered a fair process. In fact, Jess Pauly testified that the Nic award WAS A FAIR PROCESS.  Regardless of how any of this plays out, USAPA will lose. You will never determine the E/W seniority list. The APA will. They can simply change whatever agreement you think you may have had with the company and simply deliver the Nic award on a silver platter. There's nothing you can do about it. Although, I love to see how much money USAPA is spending...it puts those 4 "national" officer idiots that much closer to personal Bankruptcy and prison.

The east merger committee will propose a list, not determine a list. The arbitrators will determine the final list composition. The key word is list, as in one list covering 15,000 pilots using a single methodology which is F&E and complies with the intent of McCaskill Bond, the MOU and the Protocal Agreement.

In contrast, the west merger committee will focus on resurrecting what they lost in court, hoping for sympathy from the arbs. Rather than proposing a universal formula which addresses and serves all American pilots, they will focus on their parochial self interests, at the expense of all LUS pilots.

 

[Phoenix]

The West is owed a DFR by SOMEONE. USAPA...beyond a shadow of a doubt....does not owe them one. You're never going to escape that fact. Even if this Arb goes USAPA's way, (highly unlikely) the APA and the Company are still legally mandated to provide a fair process. Nobody agrees that allowing USAPA to unilaterally dicate the new seniority list is even in the ball park of what would be considered a fair process. In fact, Jess Pauly testified that the Nic award WAS A FAIR PROCESS.  Regardless of how any of this plays out, USAPA will lose. You will never determine the E/W seniority list. The APA will. They can simply change whatever agreement you think you may have had with the company and simply deliver the Nic award on a silver platter. There's nothing you can do about it. Although, I love to see how much money USAPA is spending...it puts those 4 "national" officer idiots that much closer to personal Bankruptcy and prison.

Have you figured out why the pannel rejected the notion of accepting "five page proposed orders"?????

I'll help you out, if Marty won't.

The panel is NOT making a ruling on a legal dispute... They are a pannel established under the authority of the MB Statute and thus have the authority and responsibility to provide protections and services pursuant to THAT statute... The order will be THE embodiment of the statute they are tasked to execute.

DFR is not an issue in the least... MB is a fair process by definition.

 

[A320 Driver]

APA just wants cover in case of litigation. They have it, win or lose, with this arbitration. The West can throw all the dollars they want at this and it won't change the fact that the tool they needed to use the NIC was the transition agreement between East and West and that has been superseded by the MOU/MTA. No Transition Agreement, no NIC. The arbitrators will have their day under M/B and the West will live with it for the rest of their careers. I personally don't think the outcome will be one bit different regarding the SLI arbitration whether or not the West gets their seat. From the testimony given by Jess, it is obvious that the line of thinking is along the very same lines that two of the three arbitrators from our upcoming arbitration just used with United/Continental. Where would the NIC fit into that??? It doesn't. All a West Merger Committee is going to do is waste a lot of time with nothing to show for it.
IMO...

 

[Metroyet]

 MB is a fair process by definition.

So is the Nicolau award. Nobody has ever even suggested otherwise.

 

[Phoenix]

So is the Nicolau award. Nobody has ever even suggested otherwise.

Immaterial. The West did not and could not ask the panel to make any decision about the Nic... They asked to be granted a MB merger committee. The panel will issue an order that executes and enforces the MB Statute, as is their responsibility.

The whole APA and company DFR based argument was a colossal misdirected waste of time and energy... The Statute provides the fairness... The execution and enforcement of the statute dismisses any DFR claim in the SLI matter.

 

[Claxon]

So is the Nicolau award. Nobody has ever even suggested otherwise.

Statements like yours are responsible for the west getting ALPA off the property. Pigheaded insistence on putting a 17 yr un furloughed east pilot with a west new hire.
Ferguson turned down the Nic and a fence that would now be long gone. Face it, your greed got you slaughtered. Ferguson refused the Nic. There is no DFR. He turned it down.
You are getting exactly what you deserve. "All the risk lies with the west....." Jeff Freund

 

[traderjake]

Statements like yours are responsible for the west getting ALPA off the property.

 
When can we expect you back on the property?

 

[Pi brat]

My perspective is formed from a long line of arbitration decisions that hold that once a merger occurs, the fates of the employees are forever changed from their standalone fates. Therefore, when looking at "snapshot" of where the parties are, the date is almost always very close to the merger date. Therefore, anything that occurred to the East and West after 2005 is a result of a merged company. Despite the wrangling that goes on here, there is no person in the universe that could say what America West or the old US Airways would have looked like today absent the merger. In fact, most speculation is hopelessly tainted by self interest amongst the parties. ("You would have folded", "no you would have folded", etc, etc, etc)

That means you are merging two systems, American and US Airways (East and West). The equities that are brought to the merger from the East and West are combined and will be indistinguishable for the arbitration panel. In the same fashion that you would not prejudice the DCA base because they are narrow body only, you would not prejudice the PHX base for the same reason.

If you look at merging seniority lists, the actual methodology involves a two step process; creating slots based on a certain equity (status and category, longevity, shoe size, etc) and then filling in those slots with pilot names based on their pre merger seniority. For example, when you merge a list via status and category you create slots based on the group's jobs (A330 Capt, 757 Capt, etc) and then you fill in those slots with pilots names in seniority order. Therefore the #1 guy is slotted into a widebody captain job even if that pilot happens to fly A320 and so on.

When merging the lists of American and US Airways (East and West) you will follow the same process. You will merge slots together and then fill in those slots with the names of pilots. Therefore the only dispute really left amongst the East and West, is what names will go in which slots.

There was a whole line of questioning that Freund gave Pauley about breaking down this process. Pauley evaded answering the question as long as he could, but Javits stepped in and forced him to answer. Basically, if you start with the 15,000 names of the merged list and then remove only the American pilots, all you will have left is a list of East and West pilots in some order. Hence the statement that Pauley is now the new George Nicolau to determine which names go in which order and that East/West list.

So how do you determine the order of names on the East/West list? Well, that's the sticking point isn't it. Of course the East pilots want to unilaterally determine that list. Despite the "let's work together" front they put up at the arbitration, the entire world has seen that the East pilots think their numerical superiority allows them to unilaterally determine what that list would be. Every offer of "let's work together" comes with the pre condition that the Nicolau list will be modified or eliminated to the benefit of the East pilots. That is similar to a robber "negotiating" with you to determine how much he is going to steal from you.

My opinion is that in order to determine the East/West list, you have to go back to the conditions that George Nicolau faced back in the original arbitration. The East pilots are going to look the new arbitrators in the face and tell them that their work is not important, because whatever an arbitrator rules is worthless, the majority of pilots can overrule them and do whatever they feel like. I would not want to be making that argument.

In the end, almost everyone sees that if you have this dispute about how to order seniority lists, each side needs a separate say in that process. Or, you need to have a single designated representative that faces the penalty of DFR if they don't treat all pilots fairly. Right now, USAPA does not have a DFR to anyone anywhere. Therefore, either the APA alone will determine the East/West list or you will need two separate parties to figure that out. After participating in three seniority arbitrations very closely I am hesitant to read minds, but I can't see how you can be fair to the West pilots without giving them their own committee. I believe that point was made overwhelmingly at the just completed arbitration and that USAPA's arguments were based on misstating the law and what had occurred previously.

I see your points, but I disagree, and I disagreed with the questions the arbitrator was asking Pauley. We never merged seniority lists. Until the MOU, we never merged fleets. We were separate, with no idea of when we would get to the point that you speak of. We all agreed to go into this with 3 lists, so it should be three merging into one. Sure, if you do that and you remove the AA pilots you would have a US order, but if you remove the east pilots, you will have a AWA/AA order. So what?
 
My point is that if the panel follows history, if they use the Nic and do no bump no flush, they are in effect giving US pilots double coverage on the captain positions that east pilots have taken. I don't see it.
 
We'll see. Hey, I've been wrong a time or two before.