2014 Pilot Discussion
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luvthe9
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- Aug 30, 2002
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GOOD LETTER!!!!!!!!!................
I hope you all got to listen to the Phone Tree Meeting last night because they had some good questions asked and some excellent answers given.
My take away from it was to recap the history of these negotiations which are as follows:
We signed a very restrictive and in my view a totally inadequate MOU which gives us little return for the unheard of profits being made. It restricts us from taking advantage of the huge profits that this airline will have in the future.
On Nov 11, the company came to us with what sounded like an offer to fast track the MOU provisions by 'giving' us a raise now that would bring us up to current Delta rates plus 3% starting Dec. 1, 2014. This was not done out of the goodness of their heart. They believe that by giving us a pay raise now before the new Delta /United pay rates, they will have lower payroll costs than Delta/United well into the future.
However, the company added contractual provisions that were concessionary but refused to give us information on the value of those give backs. They asked to modify the scope clause so they could add 5 seats for the largest commuter jets. They also extended an additional year to the amendable length of the contract helping to keep us well under the pay rates of Delta/United for at least an additional year. Oh, and no profit sharing.
The union pointed out in their counter proposal that Delta Pilots will get about 15% in addition to their pay in profit sharing, so asked for Delta rates plus 10% with no profit sharing. In addition, they asked that the A-321 be added to Group III pay rates, an average of 5:20 per day and told them that scope was off the table and asked once again for the value the company was placing on the concessions they asked for.
The company refused the union's offer, took scope off the table as a "good will" gesture to foster better relations, then added 5 seats on to the smaller commuter jets by-passing the scope clause (so much for fostering better relations) and adding many times the seats. They are also not interested in addressing any quality of life issues.
Parker and Kirby tried to by-pass the union by taking their show on the road to DFW with Parker's usual "Awe shucks, guys. I'm just like you" shtick. It sounded sincere until you look behind the scenes. No one asked why the company refused to give the APA values on the concessions. Parker did explain why the company will not give profit sharing. Ever watch a tap dance? He had some convoluted reasons that only airlines and car companies give profit sharing and he doesn't think that is the correct way to pay its employees. So, OK, give us Delta Rates plus 10%! Will someone please remind him that we are an airline and oh, don't forget silicon valley among many other industries that reward their employees with profit sharing for efficiency. The two most successful airlines get profit sharing. Of course, he said doesn't get profit sharing, just bonuses based on company performance. Isn't that profit sharing by another name?
Management has given the APA until tomorrow, Friday, Nov 21 for the APA to take the company's offer or go to arbitration. This is typical of how the company negotiates as both Paul DiOrio and Paul Music pointed out in answers to questions. The company never moved off it's original position, so we have been negotiating with ourselves. Now with the Friday deadline, once again the company wants us to fast track this contract, refuses to give us information and has told us in essence "Your signatures or your brains will be on the paper before we leave the room." The MOU and LOA 93 all over again, except we don't have to play that game.
So, you have to understand that this 'offer' of more pay was a ruse. Does the company want to go to arbitration? Paul DiOrio doesn't think so. He rightfully points out that if we have to go to arbitration, it will be seen as a failure on Parker's part, especially after the promises he made to investors. I agree it will be a failure and he will never get the pilots back on his side. He has created a rift that for a relatively few dollars, never needed to exist. But I feel it was never a serious offer and we will just have to take our 3% raise now, go to arbitration if necessary and get the new Delta-United average pay raise in January 2016.
Paul Music answered the question that asked if the company has shown a willingness to negotiate in good faith? His answer was they have not. He stated, "that going to arbitration is a company failure and the company will never be a world class carrier." But what it has done is unify all the parties now in the APA. East, West, legacy AA are all now on the same page. It's not just the east pilots that understand who we work for. Now everyone does. If the APA had orchestrated a way to unify all of us, they couldn't have done it as well as management has.
Bob Frear pointed out in a question asked is the entire APA Board is unified on this. His answer was an unqualified "yes."
There were also reps from other bases such as DFW and LAX that added to the sense of unity.
No one knows what the next step will be. My guess is that the company will announce we are going to arbitration this Friday and then start a publicity campaign with press releases that we were offered large pay rates and we turned it down. Ron Nelson suggested we may have to counter that with our own press releases and a demonstration before the BOD, shareholders and customers. And so, the conflict between the pilots and the company will begin. Hopefully, after the initial salvos, Parker/Kirby will realize it's to their benefit make us partners in this New American. I believe it's impossible for a airline to be great with 15,000 unhappy pilots and 30,000 unhappy flight attendants.
Listening to the answers to the questions, there was no doubt in my mind that no one in the APA is grandstanding or behaving in a way that discredits us. They seem measured in their responses and are making reasonable requests. Instead, I heard a sense of sadness that this management is the same as their old management but I also heard determination that they won't be intimidated into making a bad choice.
One thing is for sure, CLT and PHL are being well represented.
Delta and Southwest management must be salivating.
I hope you all got to listen to the Phone Tree Meeting last night because they had some good questions asked and some excellent answers given.
My take away from it was to recap the history of these negotiations which are as follows:
We signed a very restrictive and in my view a totally inadequate MOU which gives us little return for the unheard of profits being made. It restricts us from taking advantage of the huge profits that this airline will have in the future.
On Nov 11, the company came to us with what sounded like an offer to fast track the MOU provisions by 'giving' us a raise now that would bring us up to current Delta rates plus 3% starting Dec. 1, 2014. This was not done out of the goodness of their heart. They believe that by giving us a pay raise now before the new Delta /United pay rates, they will have lower payroll costs than Delta/United well into the future.
However, the company added contractual provisions that were concessionary but refused to give us information on the value of those give backs. They asked to modify the scope clause so they could add 5 seats for the largest commuter jets. They also extended an additional year to the amendable length of the contract helping to keep us well under the pay rates of Delta/United for at least an additional year. Oh, and no profit sharing.
The union pointed out in their counter proposal that Delta Pilots will get about 15% in addition to their pay in profit sharing, so asked for Delta rates plus 10% with no profit sharing. In addition, they asked that the A-321 be added to Group III pay rates, an average of 5:20 per day and told them that scope was off the table and asked once again for the value the company was placing on the concessions they asked for.
The company refused the union's offer, took scope off the table as a "good will" gesture to foster better relations, then added 5 seats on to the smaller commuter jets by-passing the scope clause (so much for fostering better relations) and adding many times the seats. They are also not interested in addressing any quality of life issues.
Parker and Kirby tried to by-pass the union by taking their show on the road to DFW with Parker's usual "Awe shucks, guys. I'm just like you" shtick. It sounded sincere until you look behind the scenes. No one asked why the company refused to give the APA values on the concessions. Parker did explain why the company will not give profit sharing. Ever watch a tap dance? He had some convoluted reasons that only airlines and car companies give profit sharing and he doesn't think that is the correct way to pay its employees. So, OK, give us Delta Rates plus 10%! Will someone please remind him that we are an airline and oh, don't forget silicon valley among many other industries that reward their employees with profit sharing for efficiency. The two most successful airlines get profit sharing. Of course, he said doesn't get profit sharing, just bonuses based on company performance. Isn't that profit sharing by another name?
Management has given the APA until tomorrow, Friday, Nov 21 for the APA to take the company's offer or go to arbitration. This is typical of how the company negotiates as both Paul DiOrio and Paul Music pointed out in answers to questions. The company never moved off it's original position, so we have been negotiating with ourselves. Now with the Friday deadline, once again the company wants us to fast track this contract, refuses to give us information and has told us in essence "Your signatures or your brains will be on the paper before we leave the room." The MOU and LOA 93 all over again, except we don't have to play that game.
So, you have to understand that this 'offer' of more pay was a ruse. Does the company want to go to arbitration? Paul DiOrio doesn't think so. He rightfully points out that if we have to go to arbitration, it will be seen as a failure on Parker's part, especially after the promises he made to investors. I agree it will be a failure and he will never get the pilots back on his side. He has created a rift that for a relatively few dollars, never needed to exist. But I feel it was never a serious offer and we will just have to take our 3% raise now, go to arbitration if necessary and get the new Delta-United average pay raise in January 2016.
Paul Music answered the question that asked if the company has shown a willingness to negotiate in good faith? His answer was they have not. He stated, "that going to arbitration is a company failure and the company will never be a world class carrier." But what it has done is unify all the parties now in the APA. East, West, legacy AA are all now on the same page. It's not just the east pilots that understand who we work for. Now everyone does. If the APA had orchestrated a way to unify all of us, they couldn't have done it as well as management has.
Bob Frear pointed out in a question asked is the entire APA Board is unified on this. His answer was an unqualified "yes."
There were also reps from other bases such as DFW and LAX that added to the sense of unity.
No one knows what the next step will be. My guess is that the company will announce we are going to arbitration this Friday and then start a publicity campaign with press releases that we were offered large pay rates and we turned it down. Ron Nelson suggested we may have to counter that with our own press releases and a demonstration before the BOD, shareholders and customers. And so, the conflict between the pilots and the company will begin. Hopefully, after the initial salvos, Parker/Kirby will realize it's to their benefit make us partners in this New American. I believe it's impossible for a airline to be great with 15,000 unhappy pilots and 30,000 unhappy flight attendants.
Listening to the answers to the questions, there was no doubt in my mind that no one in the APA is grandstanding or behaving in a way that discredits us. They seem measured in their responses and are making reasonable requests. Instead, I heard a sense of sadness that this management is the same as their old management but I also heard determination that they won't be intimidated into making a bad choice.
One thing is for sure, CLT and PHL are being well represented.
Delta and Southwest management must be salivating.
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
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Two other points that I thought interesting. If we accept the 15% (we already have 3% coming anyway), not only do we have to eat the 7 concessions, but we lose the Delta/United parity review for 1-1-16 and instead get another 3%. If Delta signs a contract in 2015, we will be behind again. Plus this thing adds another year onto the contract. Lots of issues here and the company is playing hardball.
I think the company made up their minds to arbitrate last week. This thing has got Jerry Glass written all over it.
I think the company made up their minds to arbitrate last week. This thing has got Jerry Glass written all over it.
Glass definitely all over it. He knows this group well. His plan is to dangle enough Green in front of a group with only a few years left to drag the rest into a cheap contract laden with deeper givebacks. He probably has the number of votes figured to make it fly. Munn is already helping him, as usual. Then Parker runs with it for years. LOA 93B. The younger guys will get locked down away from their next deal by some obscure contractual terms which will be subject to more arbitration for years. Parker is way smarter than you guys.A320 Driver said:
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
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The 2 hour call out is a deal killer for many. Can I make it from GSO to CLT in that time....safely? (I always shower first!)
- May 8, 2007
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Man, I really wish I would have thought of that at the time. Really! I'm laughing about it NOW! I suppose I could go to a junkyard and find something white but it really wouldn't do it justice past this point I guess.Claxon said:
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Do you know which junkyard ended up with the van? It may not be that difficult to find it. Junkyards usually keep track of vehicle type, general location and date of arrival. You could sell pins for $675! LOL!
- May 8, 2007
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Wait a minute. Don't lump ME in with HIM because I think it's doable. We simply start sooner with the delta rates and move on for another year. Those "deeper" givebacks are not as deep as you would think.Claxon said:
Look, if you're supporting not having it to make some sort of fashion statement then that's your choice. But the union should at LEAST estimate the costing factors associated with it (yes I know we're doing the company job). I would not in ANY WAY classify it a LOA93B. It is STILL good money no matter which way you slice it. The "younger guys" I believe you mean new hires will see significant pay jumps where they need it most. That is my point.
- May 8, 2007
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He scrapped it. It's been made into the beer cans that hold my BEER!!! (vb.). But the $675 pins are a great idea.nycbusdriver said:
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
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Will the DL pilots get significant pay raises on top of profit sharing? I doubt it, but I recall profit sharing is not in their contract. Doug is not a people person, only a numbers man much like Wolf. Need to crunch 5 years of numbers. Mou with estimated DL pay rates used, or the current offer (with a few changes.)
- May 8, 2007
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Remember the parity review is between United and Delta. There is a belief that the Delta contract will be settled a year from now. From pilots I know that know the Delta pilots and have asked THEM about the contract state of affairs they said it's going to be awhile and in any case I do not believe new contract rates will be available by 01Jan2016. Their contract is good until the end of 2015 and secondly it will go to arbitration (again) because even IF they have a contract by the end of next year the company has stated in the contract:A320 Driver said:
e. On or before July 1, 2015 , the parties will meet and confer for a period of up to 30 days to
attempt to achieve a voluntary agreement for an Industry Comparable Pay Rate
Adjustment. If by August 1, 2015, the parties are unable to achieve a voluntary
agreement on an Industry Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment (calculated according to
subsections a., b., and c. above, and subject to subsection d. above), they will submit the
issue of an Industry Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment to interest arbitration under the
procedures of Section 7 of the Railway Labor Act.
(1) The parties will agree on or before August 1, 2015 to the appointment of three neutral
arbitrators, to include Richard Bloch, if available, as the principal neutral. Failing
agreement on the appointment of three neutral arbitrators on or before DOS + 31
months, the parties will request the National Mediation Board to appoint a panel of
three neutral arbitrators (to include Richard Bloch, if available, as the principal
neutral), who are members of the National Academy of Arbitrators.
(2) To facilitate the interest arbitration, the parties may enter an interest arbitration
agreement setting forth ground rules for the interest arbitration. In the absence of
such interest arbitration agreement, the interest arbitration will be conducted
according to the provisions of this Agreement and whatever ground rules the panel
deems appropriate.
(3) The parties will share equally all costs of interest arbitration.
(4) The interest arbitration will begin on or before September 1, 2015 and a hearing will
be concluded and a decision issued on or before December 1, 2015.
So you guys may want to read the fine print!!
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
- 2,125
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Increasing the Mou rates by 3% for each year starting in 2016, not compounding, (according to the pamphlet rates), and using a 76 hour month, for years 2015-2019, it looks like a wash between the company offer and the MOU($30,000.00 better with the company proposed rates) But with the company offer, we have to give up stuff. However the DL pilots get profit sharing on top of that.....(maybe as it is not in their contract.)
Someone else plz run their numbers.
Someone else plz run their numbers.
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