2014 Pilot Discussion

[crazystnic]

My Biggest heartburn over this is Parker masquerading as this is better than industry standard and DL. It's not.

If parker took the 8 things off the table he wants and shortens the term to 2017 then I would say yes.

Otherwise we keep the MOU ....

 

[Al Legheny]

I have been reading the MOU paragraph 27 the MTA Supplement A.. The MOU outlines that if the parties are unable to agree on the terms of the CBA it goes to arbitration.

MOU - "The arbitrators award specifically shall adhere to the economic terms of the MTA and shall not change the MTAs Scope terms (Paragraph 25 of this Memorandum) or the modifications generated through the process set forth in Paragraph 24 of this Memorandum.

MTA

1. Effective the first day of the contractual month of January 2016, for the fourth year of the Agreement, hourly base pay rates will receive an Industry Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment, to be determined according to the procedures and standards set forth in Section 2) below.

The comparators to be used in determining the Industry Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment are (a) Delta Airlines, (b) United Continental Holdings (includes United Airlines and Continental Airlines) and (c) US Airways Group (includes US Airways and America West) (the "Industry Comparators").

(a) First, the Comparable Pay Rate for each Industry Comparator will be multiplied by the mainline system available seat miles ("ASMs") for that Industry Comparator for the most recent trailing 12 month period for which ASMs are available on filed Form 10-Qs and 10-K's for that Industry Comparator as of July 1, 2015.

Now to some of the fine points of the agreements...

-These agreements describe "base pay rates" the word "base" appears over 17 times in the document. That term does not include Delta Profit Sharing. So the comparison will be between published base pay rates.

- This Web site shows United as having pay rates that cover 2017. So using the industry Comparator as of July 1, 2015, means that the published United rates will be what is used.

If this is the case the APA will never achieve Delta rates in arbitration. The new rates will be based on a July 1, 2015 snap shot that will have current United rates. That will lower the Industry Comparator value and the overall pay rate.

It is also probable that the offer on the table will trail the Delta United rates after the end of 2017.

So it's possible contact concessions in arbitration to make the cost neutral contract until the Jan 2016. Then a rate that will trail delta unless United gets a new contract to match Delta in the next 7 months. Or take a contract with immediate raises and some concessions, but no scope changes, and at the latter end of the contract APA will probably trail Delta / United.

Monty Hall says:
"Do you want this money now or what's behind door number 2????"

 

[Phoenix]

My Biggest heartburn over this is Parker masquerading as this is better than industry standard and DL. It's not.
If parker took the 8 things off the table he wants and shortens the term to 2017 then I would say yes.
Otherwise we keep the MOU ....

It is inconceivable to me that we would even consider signing a one page contract.

Jerry Glass is laughing his ass off that we are fighting over the few things included, while we ignore the geometric value to management for all that is missing.. MISSING... The vast majority of missing contract items will be grieved or negotiated 1,000 times over the next five years, while Delta marches on, working its employees less and paying them more.

 

[AWE Dog]

This is nothing but the MOU one year early without parity. And wants up to pay for it.

 

[crazystnic]

[SIZE=13pt]Fellow Washington Pilots,[/SIZE]

 
[SIZE=13pt]The company has passed us their proposal without the 5-seat scope change. This pass is with the threat that if we can’t work within the terms of [/SIZE][SIZE=13pt]their[/SIZE][SIZE=13pt] remaining 7 items, they will call for arbitration. The company proposal (including the now withdrawn scope change) is on the APA webs site.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]In the 11/17/14 “DFW Crew News” video posted on JetNet, [/SIZE][SIZE=13pt]Scott Kirby[/SIZE][SIZE=13pt] stated, “Delta is the target force to shoot for right now”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Regarding profit sharing,[/SIZE] [SIZE=13pt]Doug Parker[/SIZE][SIZE=13pt] stated, “it's just not the right way to pay 100,000 employees that don't have that much impact on the daily profits".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Parker and Kirby refuse to give you industry standard compensation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Parker and Kirby clearly aren’t interested in investing in you or motivating you.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Investing in pilots is unnecessary?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]DAL management is investing in their pilots. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]DAL is incentivizing its pilots to win.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Parker and Kirby think [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]YOU[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt] are worth less.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Parker and Kirby say that you aren’t worth as much as:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a DAL pilot, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a UAL pilot, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a SWA pilot, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a UPS pilot or [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a FedEx pilot.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=13pt]Welcome to the new AAL culture, [/SIZE]

 

[nevergiveup]

[SIZE=13pt]Fellow Washington Pilots,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]The company has passed us their proposal without the 5-seat scope change. This pass is with the threat that if we can’t work within the terms of [/SIZE][SIZE=13pt]their[/SIZE][SIZE=13pt] remaining 7 items, they will call for arbitration. The company proposal (including the now withdrawn scope change) is on the APA webs site.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]In the 11/17/14 “DFW Crew News” video posted on JetNet, [/SIZE][SIZE=13pt]Scott Kirby[/SIZE][SIZE=13pt] stated, “Delta is the target force to shoot for right now”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Regarding profit sharing,[/SIZE] [SIZE=13pt]Doug Parker[/SIZE][SIZE=13pt] stated, “it's just not the right way to pay 100,000 employees that don't have that much impact on the daily profits".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Parker and Kirby refuse to give you industry standard compensation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Parker and Kirby clearly aren’t interested in investing in you or motivating you.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Investing in pilots is unnecessary?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]DAL management is investing in their pilots. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]DAL is incentivizing its pilots to win.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Parker and Kirby think [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]YOU[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt] are worth less.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]Parker and Kirby say that you aren’t worth as much as:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a DAL pilot, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a UAL pilot, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a SWA pilot, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a UPS pilot or [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13pt]a FedEx pilot.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=13pt]Welcome to the new AAL culture, [/SIZE]
 

Remember, use flaps 3 for runways greater than 6000 ft.

 

[A320 Driver]

Fellow Washington Pilots,

 
The company has passed us their proposal without the 5-seat scope change. This pass is with the threat that if we can’t work within the terms of their remaining 7 items, they will call for arbitration. The company proposal (including the now withdrawn scope change) is on the APA webs site.
In the 11/17/14 “DFW Crew News” video posted on JetNet, Scott Kirby stated, “Delta is the target force to shoot for right now”.
Regarding profit sharing, Doug Parker stated, “it's just not the right way to pay 100,000 employees that don't have that much impact on the daily profits".
Parker and Kirby refuse to give you industry standard compensation.
Parker and Kirby clearly aren’t interested in investing in you or motivating you.
Investing in pilots is unnecessary?
DAL management is investing in their pilots.
DAL is incentivizing its pilots to win.
Parker and Kirby think YOU are worth less.
Parker and Kirby say that you aren’t worth as much as:
a DAL pilot,
a UAL pilot,
a SWA pilot,
a UPS pilot or
a FedEx pilot.
 
Welcome to the new AAL culture,

Well, that pretty much sums it up. Take it or leave it is the current negotiation.

 

[crazystnic]

just listened to the PHL town hall.
Thanks to Paul D'Orio and Dean Collelo and all the board members for putting on a great discussion.
 
Paul and Dean have been dealing with Parker for 10 years...
 
I think it's pretty clear. and I will gladly give up my 20,000 pay raise if this company and management is not willing to consider any of our quality of life issues.
 
all they want is an exchange in money for their 7 items.
 
NO Friggin thanks!

 

[im back..!!]

just listened to the PHL town hall.
Thanks to Paul D'Orio and Dean Collelo and all the board members for putting on a great discussion.
 
Paul and Dean have been dealing with Parker for 10 years...
 
I think it's pretty clear. and I will gladly give up my 20,000 pay raise if this company and management is not willing to consider any of our quality of life issues.
 
all they want is an exchange in money for their 7 items.
 
NO Friggin thanks!

lets be clear here.
 
thats 20,000 for each year of what is argurably a 6 year comitment.
 
so, its 120,000 to your bottom line given up for what?
 
5min of min day? LOS (whatever that is?), scope increase for the express carriers that cant find pilots?
 
im just trying to get a wrap around what you have a definitive problem with?
 
we have aready agrees to a contract, we are just trying to enhance it.....just so we are all on the same page......

 

[flyer63]

No lets be clear. We are getting 3 percent on 1.1.15 and then at least 13 c percent on 1.1.16.. more if delta gets more. We are just giving up what the company is advancing us. 1 year early. Dont let the facts get in the way of your obsession. We need them to give on some contract issues. Are you happy flying a 187 seat 321 for what the 319 pays.?

You have your figures wrong

 

[AWE Dog]

lets be clear here.
 
thats 20,000 for each year of what is argurably a 6 year comitment.
 
so, its 120,000 to your bottom line given up for what?
 
5min of min day? LOS (whatever that is?), scope increase for the express carriers that cant find pilots?
 
im just trying to get a wrap around what you have a definitive problem with?
 
we have aready agrees to a contract, we are just trying to enhance it.....just so we are all on the same page......

20k for 6 years?? That's a little dramatic isn't it? Please show your math. It's the MOU one year earlier with consessions.

 

[Hawkhunter]

The BOD  should of told the company to stick it up their a$$. Watch out LAA the Westoffs will nark on you if you do not single engine taxi!  

 

[PullUp]

20k for 6 years?? That's a little dramatic isn't it? Please show your math. It's the MOU one year earlier with consessions.

For a grp 2 blockholder @85 hrs/mo. from December 2014 to December 2020 under the proposal you will have 102,531 more dollars (88k + 14k) in the bank and DC fund.
Because of the earlier start of the pay raise you are getting 3% raises on larger sums earlier, all the while getting an additional 16% on the larger sum.
Take the money.

 

[A320 Driver]

For a grp 2 blockholder @85 hrs/mo. from December 2014 to December 2020 under the proposal you will have 102,531 more dollars (88k + 14k) in the bank and DC fund.
Because of the earlier start of the pay raise you are getting 3% raises on larger sums earlier, all the while getting an additional 16% on the larger sum.
Take the money.

Based on what I heard last night, that isn't going to happen.

 

[nycbusdriver]

For a grp 2 blockholder @85 hrs/mo. from December 2014 to December 2020 under the proposal you will have 102,531 more dollars (88k + 14k) in the bank and DC fund.
Because of the earlier start of the pay raise you are getting 3% raises on larger sums earlier, all the while getting an additional 16% on the larger sum.
Take the money.

 
No question the company is doing their typical sleaze-bag act by attempting to pull a Section 6-type "negotiation" outside of Section 6..  But does anyone really think Parker and Kirby care deep down whether or not they alienate the pilots?  The pilot can do nothing of substance.  APA and USAPA have both seen what the federal courts will do when the company goes crying to the judge.
 
We are claiming the "moral high ground" from people who have no morals to begin with.  Let's show them what a real pyrrhic victory is.
 
The company is under no obligation to "give" us anything.  Forcing an arbitration might well have been their plan all along...we will never know.
 
But having the "big" raise a year early certainly makes the pilots' lives that much easier, as well as making the follow-on 3% raises that much larger, also raising the 401K contributions by that much more, and getting a larger salary look-back when some of us geriatrics find us medically disqualified.
 
But "let's show 'em" anyway.  We have zero leverage in this situation, other than to say: "No!"  By saying that we walk away from substantial quids, for which the quos are minor in light of the present industry situation.  I must admit that, during the conference call last night, I anxiously waited to hear the response to one pilot's question on our leverage in this situation.  The answer from the board member was ludicrous; all old-time-union boilerplate, with really no chance of effectiveness.  Pilots waging battle against the company in the "court of public opinion"?  Get real, APA.