2014 Pilot Discussion
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traderjake said:
The APA must be so very grateful for that, and it's comforting to see that your imaginary friends nowadays include "the rest of the world", umm....but aren't "the rest of the world" the very same people that the west folks equally fantasized to be their supporters?
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
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Pi brat said:
I don't stand with guys who think it OK to renege on a mutually agreed upon seniority arbitration because they don't like the result.
We know where you stand.
It's fun watching you try to justify what USAPA has done on the APA forum.
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
That is exactly right. Parker and Kirby BOTH stated on numerous occasions that they didn't see the point in negotiations because the NIC was in dispute. How convenient.
Us vs them stuff aside, your post highlights the difficulty in bringing this pilot group together. There are so many factions with axes to grind that anything the union does or any position they take is sure to inflame some portion of the pilot group. Mature adults would try to find some middle ground and accept that while the course of action might not be their preference, at least they elected people that they trust to make the "right" decision when faced with a difficult choice. Frankly, I don't expect to see that represented on this site but I hold out hope that it will be the overall attitude of the work group moving forward.end_of_alpa said:
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
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Funny how eoa left the East/USAPA faction off that list.
But hey, he's just telling it like he sees it in an unbiased way.
But hey, he's just telling it like he sees it in an unbiased way.
im back..!!
Senior
- Mar 26, 2011
- 499
- 504
actually Dan, everybody wants there DOH.traderjake said:
All APA pilots and all West pilots and all East pilots use there DOH to bid everything from equipment to vacation (which I understand you were to stupid to not freak up, sheesh).
The uncomfortable truth is that nobody wants to give up the chance to spring board up in seniority..."Human Nature" Danno....
We have had our DOH on the East for the entire time since the merger with A.West, it has been our saving grace since the retirements kicked in. We havent taken away anything that we didnt bring..... the West, rightly so, has benefited from what they had expected, prior to our merger... Just their DOH movement from Managements descisions and nothing more..... No pilot can expect anymore....
The APA, West, and East pilots deserve, and should benefit from there inherent attrition and seniority movement (based on there DOH) as they would have had the merger not happened....
Nothing more, Nothing less...
If anyone can't understand that, they are a "Thief".....lookin to benefit from another..... Simple as that...
We have given you discussen over the years over the Nic and DOH, but you must understand.....you have benefited from your DOH just like the guy 1 above and 1 below you. If you cant see or understand that, you are either a hippocrit (bid 190 and show your colors) or are a "Thief"...
I think you are neither, just a lost sole, looking for acceptance, which the West has offered to anyone simpathetic to there cause of seniority jumping....
The game is over Dan, go home< see your dad.....reconcile.....it will be ok. And the APA will take care of all of us.
Probably with LOS and protections on the 350 and 777/787. everyone will be OK.....but you Dan will be sitting solemly in the rt seat, unable to grasp the happeness of command.
Embrace your plight Dan, not everybody is cut out for being in charge.....Somebody has to be the "Perpetual" F/O....
- May 8, 2007
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Sorry. You can add them too. Just increases my point. Thanks, Dan.traderjake said:
- May 8, 2007
- 3,146
- 3,236
You see, we have many here who "get it". But my belief is that we are becoming a "minority" in that belief...hence my earlier post. This group is NOT unified....and THAT IS MY POINT' no matter whether you believe in Nicolau or the tooth fairy.im back..!! said:
- May 8, 2007
- 3,146
- 3,236
You know, that was my point. You are definitely correct that it won't be represented on this website from everything I've seen from ALPA, USAPA and APA. I belief (and this is just my cynical belief of THIS pilot group) is that we are SO fractionalized that it will be WORST then the website....not better. But, again, after what I've seen at ALPA/USAPA meetings and the web boards I fear it's worst than both of us would like it.cynic said:
Look I really don't like the disunity but the seniority issue has driven such a wedge that even the NEW HIRES smell blood in the water. Talk about naive, just go visit the Airline Pilot Central website and get a REAL earful from those guys.
Hey, just sayin.....
FAA easing restrictions on older pilots
http://thehill.com/regulation/223862-faa-easing-restrictions-on-older-pilots
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2014-26783.pdf
http://thehill.com/regulation/223862-faa-easing-restrictions-on-older-pilots
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2014-26783.pdf
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
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Anderson is right on..........
"Hopefully, upper management will take a lesson from their counterpart at Delta and figure out in order to be truly a world class organization you must recognize the value of your employees and treat them as assets instead of liabilities. In fact, in a recent corporate meeting at Delta called "Velvet 360" Delta's CEO Richard Anderson stated:
American is trying to mimic everything we do, but frankly they will never catch up to us, because they don't invest in their People."
"Hopefully, upper management will take a lesson from their counterpart at Delta and figure out in order to be truly a world class organization you must recognize the value of your employees and treat them as assets instead of liabilities. In fact, in a recent corporate meeting at Delta called "Velvet 360" Delta's CEO Richard Anderson stated:
American is trying to mimic everything we do, but frankly they will never catch up to us, because they don't invest in their People."
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Pilots comments to the BOD about the Kirby 2 proposal
I want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table.
Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal.
It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon
To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: " not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal.
Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
I want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table.
Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal.
It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon
To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: " not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal.
Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
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