2014 Pilot Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

The last best chance for the west and east to find a realistic solution to an intractable problem was Wye River. The east offered the Nic, provided it came with a fence and furlough by DOH or LOS. This offer was made under the spectre of an imminent representational election with all the attendant risk to the west which a USAPA victory would bring.

The west contingent, because of instructions from AOL and attorneys, could not or would not budge from the Nic - 100 proof.

Here is the rub. The offer made by the east at Wye has not only been achieved but exceeded. The fence has lasted several years. No implementation or even formal acceptance of the Nic has happened. Furloughs have been DOH (@ the exclusive expense of PHX). In addition, east attrition has gone to east pilots. Hiring has resumed. Upgrades and movement are in full swing. West pilots are denied access to widebody flying to this day.

The unintended consequences of separate ops is now fully apparent to the west strategists. Where they once ridiculed and reveled at the east working for bottom of barrel wages and benefits; today they are angry and bitter at where their leaders have brought them.

The Nic could now be implemented tomorrow. USAPA has served its purpose. Credit goes to both Cleary and Hummel who, each in his own way, did not allow the Nic to stand during their terms of office.

'84

 

[Claxon]

The last best chance for the west and east to find a realistic solution to an intractable problem was Wye River. The east offered the Nic, provided it came with a fence and furlough by DOH or LOS. This offer was made under the spectre of an imminent representational election with all the attendant risk to the west which a USAPA victory would bring.
The west contingent, because of instructions from AOL and attorneys, could not or would not budge from the Nic - 100 proof.
Here is the rub. The offer made by the east at Wye has not only been achieved but exceeded. The fence has lasted several years. No implementation or even formal acceptance of the Nic has happened. Furloughs have been DOH (@ the exclusive expense of PHX). In addition, east attrition has gone to east pilots. Hiring has resumed. Upgrades and movement are in full swing. West pilots are denied access to widebody flying to this day.
The unintended consequences of separate ops is now fully apparent to the west strategists. Where they once ridiculed and reveled at the east working for bottom of barrel wages and benefits; today they are angry and bitter at where their leaders have brought them.
The Nic could now be implemented tomorrow. USAPA has served its purpose. Credit goes to both Cleary and Hummel who, each in his own way, did not allow the Nic to stand during their terms of office.
'84

Good post 84

 

[traderjake]

The Nic could now be implemented tomorrow.

 
Not tomorrow but glad to see you're coming to the realization that the Nicolau Award can still be implemented.

 

[A320 Driver]

Not tomorrow but glad to see you're coming to the realization that the Nicolau Award can still be implemented.

Great...he flushed the chumps.

 

[Phoenix]

Not tomorrow but glad to see you're coming to the realization that the Nicolau Award can still be implemented.

The Nic has always been within a wide range of reasonableness. If it makes the West feel better, nothing will ever change that.

 

[Claxon]

Not tomorrow but glad to see you're coming to the realization that the Nicolau Award can still be implemented.

Things that also could happen tomorrow:

Pigs flying
Traitor hitting the powerball
A Tsunami in Pittsburgh

 

[flyer63]

Furloughs? No thanks.
 
 We had to make room for 1800 pilots, a third of the Airways pilots who did not have jobs until the acquired East managers in conjunction with USAPA helped themselves to furlough West pilots to make room.
 
I preferred to stay with an airline which was growing, hiring and had 6-year upgrades. Not an Airway who's business plan was no plan, rather lottery ticket provided by Parker.
 
At the expense of the Original Cactus Pilots.
 
Bottom line, we are sick of getting the short end of the mergers..
 
I'll share a thought of the day:
 
 
 
Separate ops does not mean the East gets everything and the West gets screwed
.
"What I expect is to share in the merger, the last one and this one. Waiting over a decade for the first benefit is not what I expected. If you are OK with how the PHX pilots have been treated and feel the need to apologize and justify why the west pilots have been screwed so be it. But I think the company has enough of those. Particularly not from someone that calls himself "that ALPA guy".
Before you or anyone, like the CPO tries and say this is just about my upgrade, it is not. This is about every single west pilots being screwed in this deal. This is about Ellis Ferris our number one pilots not being about to bid a WB if he wants. It is about any west pilots not being able to bid what this airline has to offer. It is about junior captains sitting reserve for 10 years and never holding a line. It is about middle captains and FO's forced to work weekends and holidays instead of advancing. It is about 16 going to be 20 year F/O's with no opportunities. It is about junior F/O' that will remain junior F/O's for the foreseeable future. It is about west pilots locked in PHX when there are based much closer to their home and they could cut down or end their commute. It is about watching third listers and furloughed pilots take opportunites that the west pilots should have available. It is about people not living up to their obligations and most importantly it is about people lying and not doing what they said they were going to do.
I understand, life is good for you. You are a captain that lives in base and got a big raise. Good for you. The rest of the pilots don't have it quite as good as you do. I am not willing to bend over and silently let Parker or any manager bone me or the rest of the PHX pilots. I don't know I guess it is a rep thing, something you should understand.
There is not much me or any west pilots can do except yell from the mountain top and point out the BS at every opportunity. When people lie to me I will call them a liar and not just let it go. I don't need to be friends with management because we all know they have not been our friends. If I piss off management because I point out the facts and call them on their BS so be it. We should all be doing that."

******************

Only about 600 to 700 came back from furlough chief..

 

[nevergiveup]

 
Not tomorrow but glad to see you're coming to the realization that the Nicolau Award can still be implemented.

as can seniority by alphabetical order, but not likely. 

 

[snapthis]

******************

Only about 600 to 700 came back from furlough chief..

 
Which means the others were afforded the opportunity to come back, so what's your point?
 

 

[flyer63]

Point is that your new hire isn't going in front of me. They have to earn their time. I will take that east captain slot based on our attrition on the next bid or the one after. And their isn't a damn thing you can do about it. That horse has left the barn.

 

[Barrister]

Snap,
 
Your problem dude is that you don't know your audience/enemy.  We gave blood over here only to see suit after suit squander it. Not your problem right? But we kept this POS floating long enough to get a deal, any deal, it just happened to be your POS we did it with. At least half of this company was set back YEARS,....no decades ... due to the US/PI merger but you know what...we got over it because we knew at it's very core DOH is fair. When the US/PI deal went through Greensboro was closed as a crew base. The son of the PI founder was the chief pilot. He found out the base was closing when the bid came over the teletype. Where did they add the time...how about LAX....funny right!!! Want to know how many PI guys got displaced?? Want to know what backward movement is?? Go ask any PI guy, he will tell ya!!  Just about every single PI gut who commuted to CLT from anyplace South eventually got displaced by US guys who then commuted to CLT.  Did we blame the pilots....HELL NO ..we blamed a management group who made one stupid move after another. Oh yeah...lets don't forget that US had to park 30-40 737s just to get this AW deal done. Did you forget about that?
 
To an East guy your complaints just elicit a yea...been there done that type of response. Just remember this. NIC both blessed you and doomed you at the same time. If you can't see that....well then son you have a little growing up to do.
None of us a truly want to see you in that spot because most of us have.....well ...been there. But you will  not get our sympathy because you will have 10-15-20 year FOs. It sucks to be you. We know because it has sucked to be US...but for way longer!!
 
NICDOA
NPJB

 

[EastUS1]

 
I preferred to stay with an airline which was growing, hiring and had 6-year upgrades. Not an Airway who's business plan was no plan, rather lottery ticket provided by Parker.
 
Bottom line, we are sick of getting the short end of the mergers..
 

 
1) You were perfectly free to make that choice.
 
2) Stop whining about the results of that choice.
 
Seriously; just exactly how much of the world do you really "expect" to ever be served to you on a platter?

 

[Claxon]

john scherff america west pilot, was a pilot manager when he went to a company computer in US Airways headquarters in Phoenix, Arizona. schreff copied a file of all East pilots personal ID information and handed it over to the west pilots army of leonidas, rico defendants.
http://www.darkreading.com/attacks-breaches/thousands-of-us-airways-pilots-victims-
of-possible-insider-data-breach/d/d-id/1135529?
 
A letter written by scherff refusing mediation in October of 2012, after his group of america west pilots lost their second DFR suit against USAPA pilots union that represented them, was signed with "In solidarity and honor".  Stealing personal ID information from East pilots apparently satisfied his honor by convenience code. 
 
In true marty harper provided misguided mantra, schreff composed the following nic or nothing letter to USAPA President Gary Hummel's offer of mediation.
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West_Pilot_DFR_DJ/Doc_77-4.pdf

 

[snapthis]

Snap,
 
Your problem dude is that you don't know your audience/enemy.  We gave blood over here only to see suit after suit squander it. Not your problem right? But we kept this POS floating long enough to get a deal, any deal, it just happened to be your POS we did it with. At least half of this company was set back YEARS,....no decades ... due to the US/PI merger but you know what...we got over it because we knew at it's very core DOH is fair. When the US/PI deal went through Greensboro was closed as a crew base. The son of the PI founder was the chief pilot. He found out the base was closing when the bid came over the teletype. Where did they add the time...how about LAX....funny right!!! Want to know how many PI guys got displaced?? Want to know what backward movement is?? Go ask any PI guy, he will tell ya!!  Just about every single PI gut who commuted to CLT from anyplace South eventually got displaced by US guys who then commuted to CLT.  Did we blame the pilots....HELL NO ..we blamed a management group who made one stupid move after another. Oh yeah...lets don't forget that US had to park 30-40 737s just to get this AW deal done. Did you forget about that?
 
To an East guy your complaints just elicit a yea...been there done that type of response. Just remember this. NIC both blessed you and doomed you at the same time. If you can't see that....well then son you have a little growing up to do.
None of us a truly want to see you in that spot because most of us have.....well ...been there. But you will  not get our sympathy because you will have 10-15-20 year FOs. It sucks to be you. We know because it has sucked to be US...but for way longer!!
 
NICDOA
NPJB

 
 
 
Barrister,
 
I maintain friendships with some out East formed well before the shotgun wedding in 2005, I'm aware of the hardships prior to that time. I attended the roadshows, the trials and most recently, the Phoenix domicile meeting. I get it. I'll give credit to Hummel, Streble and Dean 10h Collelo for coming out and speaking to West pilots. There was no need for armed guards as they saw. Another thought, I don't stand at the curb, scowl at East pilots, I'd rather strike up a conversation, something outside of what goes on here on this forum. This is the place to vent, grab that folding chair, knock each other over the head, not on the line or the jumpseat. 
 
You had the power in the past to strong-arm the West, Wye River comes to mind. I'm also aware that the abuse of power which came with the majority rule is drawing to a close. You may find yourself having a similar event, Trinity River, come to Jesus moment and baptism through the APA. This is what USAPA fears as noted below in the opposition to SCS: "The US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) was alone in filing a brief opposing the classification."
 
 
The August 8 decision by the NMB paves the way for a single collective bargaining representative for the pilots of both US Airways and American Airlines. That representative is likely to be the APA.
In a 23-page decision, the National Mediation Board (NMB) agreed with the Allied Pilots Association (APA) that American Airlines and US Airways are operating as a single transportation system. The APA represents American Airlines’ 10,000 pilots. Both the APA and American Airlines filed briefs with the NMB earlier this year in support of the single-carrier classification. The US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) was alone in filing a brief opposing the classification. The USAPA represents 5,200 US Airways pilots.
 
The NMB report cited the merged American Airlines’ common management, financial integration, centralized control of labor relations, common personnel policies, combined routes and schedules, and standardized employee uniforms as the basis for reaching the conclusion that the merged airlines are operating as a single carrier. The NMB acknowledged the USAPA’s contention that the two carriers were not fully integrated. “USAPA argues that the New American has not removed any public indicia of US Airways, that separate livery still exists, that separate websites continues, and that separate crew management computer systems in use and that many important terms and conditions of pilot employment remain separate with no established date for integration,” a segment of the report read. The NMB concluded that the aforementioned obstacles were not enough to prevent approval of the APA petition.
 
In a statement issued Friday, the APA explained what the NMB’s decision means to its workforce. “In accordance with the NMB’s standard procedures, APA ‘and any Intervenor have 30 days from [August 8] to file an application supported by a showing of interest of at least 50% of the single transportation system.’ APA has previously submitted evidence to the NMB that we represent approximately two-thirds of the combined pilot group.”
 
Because the APA has a strong numbers advantage, the NMB’s decision all but assures that the APA, rather than the USAPA, will represent the pilots at a merged American Airlines.
 
Last Wednesday, unions representing mechanics for American Airlines also filed to declare the merged airline a single transportation system. Unlike the pilots’ unions, both the Transportation Workers Union, representing American Airlines employees, and the International Association of Machinists, representing US Airways mechanics, supported the petition. The two unions previously agreed to jointly represent employees from both airlines under one collective bargaining agreement.
http://www.flyertalk.com/story/national-mediation-board-approves-american-airlines-and-us-airways-as-single-carrier.html
 
Bottom line, it is noted, "it sucks to be US"
 
I'm looking forward to a fresh start with the APA.
 
Maybe the will suck less.

 

[traderjake]

Things that also could happen tomorrow:

Pigs flying
Traitor hitting the powerball
A Tsunami in Pittsburgh

 
Claxon posting fewer than 5 times including an article from the last decade.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw4PHhLBbrU