2014 Pilot Discussion

[EastUS1]

 
 
I was a licensed pilot in the 1970's ......
 
.........the career expectations of the America West pilots on May19, 2005 were far superior to those of the US Airways pilots.

 
1) And from such humble beginnings as those, yet rose to becoming a "spartan soldier" and "knight" of St. Nic, with even a "varsity letter jacket" to boot! Wow! Few human beings have ever achieved such greatness! All should bow in AWe-A!  Who could even dare argue that you personally aren't worthy of at least 10 or more years of artificially enhanced "seniority" over all mere mortals?
 
2) Perhaps it's far past time for "you'se" to let go of all those precious "expectations" for life and finally just GROW UP!....Or at least make the attempt. Meanwhile; have fun with your twisted fantasies.
 
P.S. By way of a offering short instruction on the irrational foolishness of ever basing life on "expectations":  "..the career expectations of the America West pilots on May19, 2005 were..." It's now August of 2014. That's the best part of a decade passed since those "expectations" were held. In what ways has the real world indulged your fantasies there? Don't "expect" life to ever do so.

 

[snapthis]

Read Bloch's take on things in the dispatcher arbitration. Way different from Nicolau's and time has proven, more towards the reality.
Naw, why educate yourself, just take AOLs word for it, they've never been wrong before! Oh wait...
I think we will be hearing from Mr. Bloch again soon.

Pi, do you think that a previous arbitration ruling might be considered? There's a good chance future arbitration will find that the previous process was fair. I'm willing to take that chance with our seat at the table.

 

[pjirish317]

 

Pi, do you think that a previous arbitration ruling might be considered? There's a good chance future arbitration will find that the previous process was fair. I'm willing to take that chance with our seat at the table.

 
Not trying to insight a riot or anything, but why do you think the the "West" will get a seat at the SLI table? The "West" is part of USAPA, the certified bargaining agent for the pilots of USAirways. The "West" are not seperate from them, and because they are not seperate, shouldn't USAPA, APA and the company be the only ones at the SLI table? Did the NMB rule that the "West" is a seperate class and can be a part of the SLI along with those I just mentioned? I guess I am asking, how are you going to get a seat at the table? And what happens when you do not?

 

[Metroyet]

Not trying to insight a riot or anything, but why do you think the the "West" will get a seat at the SLI table? The "West" is part of USAPA, the certified bargaining agent for the pilots of USAirways. The "West" are not seperate from them, and because they are not seperate, shouldn't USAPA, APA and the company be the only ones at the SLI table? Did the NMB rule that the "West" is a seperate class and can be a part of the SLI along with those I just mentioned? I guess I am asking, how are you going to get a seat at the table? And what happens when you do not?

The APA is giving the West a seat out of their DFR. The CBA can do whatever they want, no need for the NMB to interject anything. The APA isn't as interested in a decade worth of costly litigation. They're much MUCH MUCH smarter than the East scabs.

 

[snapthis]

 
 
Not trying to insight a riot or anything, but why do you think the the "West" will get a seat at the SLI table? The "West" is part of USAPA, the certified bargaining agent for the pilots of USAirways. The "West" are not seperate from them, and because they are not seperate, shouldn't USAPA, APA and the company be the only ones at the SLI table? Did the NMB rule that the "West" is a seperate class and can be a part of the SLI along with those I just mentioned? I guess I am asking, how are you going to get a seat at the table? And what happens when you do not?

 
"The APA and the company have always understood that, at some point after a ruling by the NMB on the single-carrier proceeding, APA would assume representation for pilots at the two carriers and, as a consequence, take on a duty of fair representation to all of the pilots. In recognition of this legally mandated state of affairs, APA therefore agreed that, up until the time APA becomes the representative of the entire pilot group, USAPA would be the sole representative of the pilots at US Airways and handle the merger negotiations within its discretion. However, consistent with the law, once APA becomes the representative of all pilots, APA would of necessity displace USAPA and have authority as the certified collective bargaining representative over the process. USAPA has always insisted that it maintain institutional involvement and a degree of control over the process even after it ceases to be a lawful collective bargaining representative."
 
Read more here: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2014/02/pilot-unions-squabble-about-how-theyre-going-to-come-up-with-seniority-integration.html#storylink=cpy
 
 
 
As far as not having a seat at the table, I don't think the APA is interested in inheriting USAPA's problems and understands it's DFR obligation to the West.  
"As FO Roghair stated, APA does not take its duty of fair representation lightly. Contrary to USAPA's assertions otherwise, and at their suggestion, APA has proposed that the West pilots be afforded the opportunity to petition a neutral arbitrator for the right to a separate and independent merger committee in the seniority integration process."
 
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4608/Seniority-Integration-Protocol-The-Facts.aspx

 

[snapthis]

The APA is giving the West a seat out of their DFR. The CBA can do whatever they want, no need for the NMB to interject anything. The APA isn't as interested in a decade worth of costly litigation. They're much MUCH MUCH smarter than the East scabs.

 
One other thought:
 
End_of_USAPA
 

 

[Pi brat]

Pi, do you think that a previous arbitration ruling might be considered? There's a good chance future arbitration will find that the previous process was fair. I'm willing to take that chance with our seat at the table.

It might, or they might look at the situation as it exists now. How separate ops showed how badly Nicolau screwed up, the contract that you guys agreed to that abandoned the Nic and the federal judge's ruling that said abandonment wasn't a failure of USAPA ' S DFR.

 

[prechilill]

28

 

[end_of_alpa]

 
"The APA and the company have always understood that, at some point after a ruling by the NMB on the single-carrier proceeding, APA would assume representation for pilots at the two carriers and, as a consequence, take on a duty of fair representation to all of the pilots. In recognition of this legally mandated state of affairs, APA therefore agreed that, up until the time APA becomes the representative of the entire pilot group, USAPA would be the sole representative of the pilots at US Airways and handle the merger negotiations within its discretion. However, consistent with the law, once APA becomes the representative of all pilots, APA would of necessity displace USAPA and have authority as the certified collective bargaining representative over the process. USAPA has always insisted that it maintain institutional involvement and a degree of control over the process even after it ceases to be a lawful collective bargaining representative."
 
Read more here: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2014/02/pilot-unions-squabble-about-how-theyre-going-to-come-up-with-seniority-integration.html#storylink=cpy
 
 
 
As far as not having a seat at the table, I don't think the APA is interested in inheriting USAPA's problems and understands it's DFR obligation to the West.  
"As FO Roghair stated, APA does not take its duty of fair representation lightly. Contrary to USAPA's assertions otherwise, and at their suggestion, APA has proposed that the West pilots be afforded the opportunity to petition a neutral arbitrator for the right to a separate and independent merger committee in the seniority integration process."
 
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4608/Seniority-Integration-Protocol-The-Facts.aspx

Read what you have just wrote:  "APA has proposed...".
 
That doesn't make it LEGAL.  
Here is what AOL is stating the issue from the amended complaint AND the appeal:
"V. STATEMENT OF ISSUES PRESENTED FOR REVIEW
 
1) Whether USAPA breached the duty of fair representation because, without a legitimate union purpose, it added language to the MOU that abrogates the West pilots’ right to be integrated with the East pilots according to the Nicolau Award?
 
2) Whether West pilots have a right to separate representation in the pending McCaskill-Bond seniority integration with the American Airlines pilots because there is compelling evidence that USAPA will not represent West pilots fairly?
 
Here read what Judge Silver wrote:
 
 
"C. Participation in McCaskill-Bond
The West Pilots seek a declaration that they are entitled to participate in the upcoming seniority integration process for all pilots at the post-merger airline. That process is governed by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment to the Federal Aviation Act, 49 U.S.C. § 42112 note (“McCaskill-Bond”). Under that statute, the West Pilots are not entitled to participate."
 
If and until the 9th circuit reverses and remands to the lower court her order STILL STANDS.  APA has NO ability to change it after the fact unless THEY wish to open themselves to East pilots DFR and backed by USAPA coffers and the courts.
 
Sure, go ahead and threaten AOL will be suing USAPA.  Keep in mind that lawsuits can and will swing both ways.
 
Just sayin.

 

[CactusPilot1]

It might, or they might look at the situation as it exists now. How separate ops showed how badly Nicolau screwed up, the contract that you guys agreed to that abandoned the Nic and the federal judge's ruling that said abandonment wasn't a failure of USAPA ' S DFR.

Pi, there is a Judge which said USAPA had a Pyrrhic victory..

A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with such a devastating cost that it is tantamount to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has been victorious in some way; however, the heavy toll negates any sense of achievement or profit (another term for this would be "hollow victory").[1]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

 

[CactusPilot1]

28

28 days until this nightmare ends. They got my last payment. Good luck trying to collect. Ha!

 

[luvthe9]

The APA is giving the West a seat out of their DFR. The CBA can do whatever they want, no need for the NMB to interject anything. The APA isn't as interested in a decade worth of costly litigation. They're much MUCH MUCH smarter than the East scabs.

Come on Kevin, you have no idea what the APA wants, other than you to stay out of it. They are FURIOUS with Kevin Horner.

 

[luvthe9]

Pi, there is a Judge which said USAPA had a Pyrrhic victory..
A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with such a devastating cost that it is tantamount to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has been victorious in some way; however, the heavy toll negates any sense of achievement or profit (another term for this would be "hollow victory").[1]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

Chippy has been going on with this for years. The Estoppal is hilarious. He needs Metamucil to blow out the Estoppal.

 

[luvthe9]

Read what you have just wrote:  "APA has proposed...".
 
That doesn't make it LEGAL.  
Here is what AOL is stating the issue from the amended complaint AND the appeal:
"V. STATEMENT OF ISSUES PRESENTED FOR REVIEW
 
1) Whether USAPA breached the duty of fair representation because, without a legitimate union purpose, it added language to the MOU that abrogates the West pilots’ right to be integrated with the East pilots according to the Nicolau Award?
 
2) Whether West pilots have a right to separate representation in the pending McCaskill-Bond seniority integration with the American Airlines pilots because there is compelling evidence that USAPA will not represent West pilots fairly?
 
Here read what Judge Silver wrote:
 
 
"C. Participation in McCaskill-Bond
The West Pilots seek a declaration that they are entitled to participate in the upcoming seniority integration process for all pilots at the post-merger airline. That process is governed by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment to the Federal Aviation Act, 49 U.S.C. § 42112 note (“McCaskill-Bond”). Under that statute, the West Pilots are not entitled to participate."
 
If and until the 9th circuit reverses and remands to the lower court her order STILL STANDS.  APA has NO ability to change it after the fact unless THEY wish to open themselves to East pilots DFR and backed by USAPA coffers and the courts.
 
Sure, go ahead and threaten AOL will be suing USAPA.  Keep in mind that lawsuits can and will swing both ways.
 
Just sayin.

Don't mind Spinny. He can't stop feeding the West kids lies

 

[luvthe9]

The APA is giving the West a seat out of their DFR. The CBA can do whatever they want, no need for the NMB to interject anything. The APA isn't as interested in a decade worth of costly litigation. They're much MUCH MUCH smarter than the East scabs.

Kevin, you might think you would know by now the APA can't give anything anymore. Nobody gives a seat but the NMB. This is OVER for the West kids.