2014 Pilot Discussion

[Claxon]

Another premature celebration by the west pilots.  The nic celebration in 2007 was the first of many over the last seven plus years.
 
It is no surprise that the single carrier status was going to take place eventually.
 
Fact;     
90 percent of the original East pilots will be gone before they share a cockpit with an American pilot.  That leaves the result of a combined seniority list having to be dealt with only by the majority of west pilots.
 
Your celebrating your continued confinement to the phx base.   Like the Former TWA pilots, west will be fenced and stapled to the bottom, phx base will eventually close and you will be commuting to DFW.   At least you will still have a job.

 

[Res Judicata]

Marty can talk you kids into believing anything. P. T. Barnum had it right!

Reality is going to be tough for you... Like 5 extra years of loa93 for NOTHING.

 

[Claxon]

Reality is going to be tough for you... Like 5 extra years of loa93 for NOTHING.

Do the math.  Your america west pilot, recent history and concern of industry standard wages, is hypocritical.
 
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/Pilots/Average%20Annual%20Wages%20and%20Salaries%20-%20PILOT%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm

 

[Res Judicata]

Another premature celebration by the west pilots.  The nic celebration in 2007 was the first of many over the last seven plus years.
 
It is no surprise that the single carrier status was going to take place eventually.
 
Fact;     
90 percent of the original East pilots will be gone before they share a cockpit with an American pilot.  That leaves the result of a combined seniority list having to be dealt with only by the majority of west pilots.
 
Your celebrating your continued confinement to the phx base.   Like the Former TWA pilots, west will be fenced and stapled to the bottom, phx base will eventually close and you will be commuting to DFW.   At least you will still have a job.

Delusional wishful thinking scab. It's over.

 

[Barrister]

I hope it did. The Nic isn't good enough for the West anymore. Stay tuned. You wanted a do over? Beware what you wish for.

Res,
 
Glad you finally came in from the cold. I was afraid that you were still  hopelessly wandering the streets mumbling something about "legitimate union purpose".
 
Please re-read Silver's ruling. She says there will NEVER be anything to compare the NIC to. Do you not see my young friend that that is legal jargon for we will never be able to determine if you have been damaged or not???  In your mind yes..in the legal community no.
 
My question has still not been answered. If USAPA was not liable then how is AMR liable. You are being played young man...by APA. To take care of you westies they have to hurt themselves...think they will??  I assure you they have ZERO liability to you to not use the NIC. I think them having 20 more 777 and 50 787 coming answers your qurestions as to why they can't even come up with a protocol agreement. THEY WANT TO DELAY YOU DUMMY!!!
 
Oh...by the way...can an arbitrator force a "protocol agreement" on either pary. Probably not. 
 
You think they are worried what you think.  HA!!!!!
 
Is the West merger committe participating in these talks. No USAPA is...and always will be. Wish there was someway to place a friendly little wager that either a negotiated settlement of McCaskill Bond will carry the day.  but NO NIC.
 
What keeps the Army of the East from selling ties and keeping this pony running for awhile if it doesn't go our way???
 
IN FOR A PENNY IN FOR A POUND!!!
 
NICDOA
NPJB
 
PS
A judges dicta does not trump a federal statute (MB)  Have a nice day!!

 

[Phoenix]

Delusional wishful thinking scab. It's over.

 
 
If "irrational exuberance" and "implicit assumption" were employable skills, you would be a millionaire.  Instead, you have a tie.

 

[Claxon]

Delusional wishful thinking scab. It's over.

 
May 2014
 
"Fellow America West pilots,

Several weeks ago, Captains John Hale and Bob Johnson, Flight Department leadership from American Airlines, invited AWA First Officer David Braid to meet with them at American Airlines Headquarters in Dallas to discuss a variety of issues facing West pilots. David, taking the invitation very seriously, spent countless hours of his free time researching and preparing a 46-page PowerPoint presentation to present to Captains Hale and Johnson. In composing the presentation, David spoke to several respected AWA subject matter experts, and in addition consulted company SEC filings and other citable sources upon which his presentation was based to ensure factual accuracy. David even went so far as to consult the PHX Chief Pilots office in advance of the meeting, and received their blessing and support.

A copy of the presentation may be downloaded HERE. In short, the presentation describes the proverbial "island" the PHX domicile has become as a result of the spiteful actions of USAPA and certain East managers, and the willful neglect of our corporate leadership. Fully cognizant that neither Captain Hale nor Captain Johnson were a party to any of these acts, the presentation only asked that the disparate treatment cease.

On April 8, 2014, David flew to Dallas and had what he described as a "successful" meeting with Captains Hale and Johnson. David stated that he believed that his presentation was well received by Captains Hale and Johnson. At the close of the meeting, Captain Hale promised David to research the issues presented and provide him some answers within a few weeks.

Unfortunately, since that April 8 meeting, life on the "island" has continued to degrade significantly. The entire base remains critically staffed, and our pairings have degraded to a dangerous level never previously seen. For the June bid period, the company is using the "flex" provision in the AWA contract for the first time in 9 years to build First Officer lines as high as 94 hours over the summer. This comes only one year after the company's decision to unilaterally slash long-standing quantities of summer vacation allocation, resulting in perhaps the worst staffing-driven operational disaster PHX has seen. Additionally, there is no relief to come, as many long-time West check airmen have recently resigned allegedly due to their degrading working conditions in the Training Department (the only department still lead by an East pilot). While conditions continue to deteriorate to unprecedented levels on the PHX island, both the East and the AA sides of the company continue to be flush with record movement and hiring. While the lack of movement may affect some of our pilots more than others, the most concerning bit about this situation is the potential weapon that it creates for use against us by both USAPA and APA in the McCaskill-Bond seniority integration process.

A few days ago, Captain Hale contacted David, as promised, to provide him a response to his April 8 presentation. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, Captain Hale informed David that the company would not take any action to remedy our situation. Worse yet, following the adverse reaction to this news by many of our pilots, the company began a grass-roots crew room effort to prevent an operational meltdown over the summer. The essence of the company's crew room message is that things in PHX will be "fixed" at some uncertain point in the future by some unknown and uncertain remedy. Our pilots, and particularly our captains, are asked to be "patient" about our situation, and pay no attention to the ongoing and worsening disparities between PHX and the other parts of the airline. Worse yet, some managers have even suggested that David's presentation is "emotional" and "overreaching."

We sent this message because we believe that all America West pilots should be aware of these facts. We encourage all pilots to review the presentation and draw their own conclusions about our situation."

AWAPPA
 

 

[Phoenix]

Res,
..?  I assure you they have ZERO liability to you to not use the NIC. I think them having 20 more 777 and 50 787 coming answers your qurestions as to why they can't even come up with a protocol agreement. THEY WANT TO DELAY........!!!
 
..

 
That is plausible.  
 
 

Res,
 
...
Oh...by the way...can an arbitrator force a "protocol agreement" on either pary. Probably not. 
 
...

 
 
No.  An arbitrator only has the power that is willing granted by the participants, or in the alternative established by court order in which participants are compelled to submit to an arbitrator.  
 
USAPA presently has a law suit seeking participants are compelled.  Who knows what the APA wants to do, other than staple everyone.  

 

[traderjake]

 
90 percent of the original East pilots will be gone before they share a cockpit with an American pilot.  That leaves the result of a combined seniority list having to be dealt with only by the majority of west pilots.

 
More mindless babble, who would have guessed it. 

 

[oscarjazz]

That is plausible.  
 
No.  An arbitrator only has the power that is willing granted by the participants, or in the alternative established by court order in which participants are compelled to submit to an arbitrator.  
 
USAPA presently has a law suit seeking participants are compelled.  Who knows what the APA wants to do, other than staple everyone.  

In thirty days, APA will be the only union for the pilots. They have acknowledged that they will have a DFR for ALL APA pilots including East and West. It is clear from their documents that they intend to have three independent merger committees, East, West, and current AMR pilots. These committees will not be connected to the APA Board of Directors in any way. They will most likely get equal funding that can be supplemented with pilot assessments or from the Company. My guess is that the money left over from USAPA will go into those committees.

Under the A/M LPP's all disputes are subject to arbitration. My guess is that the first dispute the West committee will raise is what list is integrated with American. The East will either argue two separate lists or Date of Hire. My prediction is the West will win and the Nicolau list will be integrated into the American list.

There is a principle, upheld many times, that benefits that occur to pilots AFTER a merger are from the merger and not from your individual airlines. This was upheld in the UAL/CAL case. Therefore, the Nicolau list was created based on the conditions at the time of the merger and will be considered the proper list to present to the American pilots.

Interestingly, if the East pilots complain about the process, they will face the same hurdles that the West pilots faced. The courts are loath to intervene until the process is done. The East will be stymied by the same principle they have argued for for years now. Not Ripe!

 

[Claxon]

 
Res Judicata, on 08 Aug 2014 - 1:46 PM, said:
 


"Reality is going to be tough for you... Like 5 extra years of loa93 for NOTHING."

How about another math lesson from west pilot ambassador david braid as told to American Airlines pilot managers about your last 7 west pilot productive years;

 
one of west pilot david braid's presentation slides begging the new american airlines pilot managers for a hand out.
 
 
East Bid 14-3a
•The latest East bid (14-3a), amended from reducing 20 pilots to increasing 30 pilots.
•Places new hire, off the street pilots into the left seat of E190’s and right seats of B767.
•Seats on the E190 and B757 are still owed to the West for six years so far.
•The West still has downgraded Captains.
•A March 20, 2014 Jetwire message stated that US Airways took delivery of an A330-200, making it the 22 A330 in the fleet.
•An additional 13 A330’s flown exclusively by East pilots. Not a single West pilot has access to those aircraft.
What airline do the West pilots work for?

"What airline do the west pilots work for?"
 
The last seven years and next few years at least, the airline you work for is the phx based regional subsidiary of American Airlines.

 

[Claxon]

In thirty days, APA will be the only union for the pilots. They have acknowledged that they will have a DFR for ALL APA pilots including East and West. It is clear from their documents that they intend to have three independent merger committees, East, West, and current AMR pilots. These committees will not be connected to the APA Board of Directors in any way. They will most likely get equal funding that can be supplemented with pilot assessments or from the Company. My guess is that the money left over from USAPA will go into those committees.

Under the A/M LPP's all disputes are subject to arbitration. My guess is that the first dispute the West committee will raise is what list is integrated with American. The East will either argue two separate lists or Date of Hire. My prediction is the West will win and the Nicolau list will be integrated into the American list.

There is a principle, upheld many times, that benefits that occur to pilots AFTER a merger are from the merger and not from your individual airlines. This was upheld in the UAL/CAL case. Therefore, the Nicolau list was created based on the conditions at the time of the merger and will be considered the proper list to present to the American pilots.

Interestingly, if the East pilots complain about the process, they will face the same hurdles that the West pilots faced. The courts are loath to intervene until the process is done. The East will be stymied by the same principle they have argued for for years now. Not Ripe!

You should have spent more time with your own delta airline pilot business alpa shill,  you would not be getting the pbgc for your retirement soon if you had, maybe.

 

[Phoenix]

 
More mindless babble, who would have guessed it. 

 
^^^^^^^^^^
The message board equivalent of a "selfie".   Bravo.  

 

[Phoenix]

In thirty days, APA will be the only union for the pilots. They have acknowledged that they will have a DFR for ALL APA pilots including East and West. It is clear from their documents that they intend to have three independent merger committees, East, West, and current AMR pilots. These committees will not be connected to the APA Board of Directors in any way. They will most likely get equal funding that can be supplemented with pilot assessments or from the Company. My guess is that the money left over from USAPA will go into those committees.

Under the A/M LPP's all disputes are subject to arbitration. My guess is that the first dispute the West committee will raise is what list is integrated with American. The East will either argue two separate lists or Date of Hire. My prediction is the West will win and the Nicolau list will be integrated into the American list.

There is a principle, upheld many times, that benefits that occur to pilots AFTER a merger are from the merger and not from your individual airlines. This was upheld in the UAL/CAL case. Therefore, the Nicolau list was created based on the conditions at the time of the merger and will be considered the proper list to present to the American pilots.

Interestingly, if the East pilots complain about the process, they will face the same hurdles that the West pilots faced. The courts are loath to intervene until the process is done. The East will be stymied by the same principle they have argued for for years now. Not Ripe!
 
 

 
 
I've bookmarked your "predictions" for a future laugh.   

 

[snapthis]

Communications Committee


August 8, 2014
USAPA Update

As previously reported to you this morning, (Friday, August 8), the National Mediation Board issued Findings Upon Investigation with respect to the ongoing single carrier investigation involving US Airways, American, and their respective pilot groups represented by USAPA and APA. The Findings, which serves as a decision in the matter, concludes that the two formerly separate airlines are operating as a single transportation system for representation purposes under the RLA.

As a result of this finding, and as required by the NMBs Rules and Regulations, USAPA, APA and any potential other labor organization has 30 days from the date of the NMBs determination (August 8) to file an application to represent the combined group of pilots. Under the NMB Rules and Regulations, such an application must be supported by a showing of interest of at least 50% of the combined group of pilots. The showing of interest may consist of records showing membership in the petitioning organization, signed authorization cards stating that the signator wishes to be represented by the petitioning organization, or other evidence that pilots want to be represented for the purposes of collective bargaining by the petitioning organization.

At the end of the 30-day period, the NMB will review the petitions and the supporting showing of interest and determine whether to certify a representative or conduct a representational election. In recent cases the NMB has shown a preference for conducting an election where the size of the two previously separate employee groups are comparable in the NMBs view.

If the NMB determines to conduct an election, it will issue a notice describing the process and stating the timeline for issuing ballots and having those ballots returned. The overall process usually takes 4-6 weeks from the date of the notice, but could be longer if any challenges or objections to the conduct of the election are filed.

USAPA Communications

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep hope alive!!