2014 Pilot Discussion

[Claxon]

 
"MR. SIEGEL: Your Honor, with all respect, on this
1 subject, it's yes or no. We're not sitting here bargaining
2 pay rate or a pension plan.
 
3 THE COURT: Or a lifetime tenure.
 
4 MR. SIEGEL: Or lifetime tenure. What we are
5 bargaining is Nicolau list or something else, and what we have 02:36:12
6 been told by the union is it has to be something else. They
7 refer to it as a date hire list with conditions. But that is
8 what they say, it has to be something else.
9 The letters, the West Pilots write letters that say
10 it has to be Nicolau because it was final and binding and 02:36:32
11 everybody, East and West, agreed to final and binding. We have
12 a zero sum gain. We're caught in the middle. We have nothing
13 to negotiate about. We either have to say yes or no to the
14 union's demand and we are at the bargaining table and that is
15 what we are faced with. 02:36:53
16 The reason we filed for declaratory relief is because
17 we have no guidance as to what is legal or not. But we know it
18 is either Nicolau or non-Nicolau and we have to -- we are
19 trying to get legal clarification of our rights and
20 obligations."

Judge Silver understood the concept of waiting in line. (tenure)
 
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
 
US Airways, Inc.,
Plaintiff,
vs.
Don Addington, et al.,
Defendants.
))))))))))
No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS
AMENDED JUDGMENT
(to add description of class)
 
Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”
 
DATED this 4th day of December, 2012.
 
Judge Silver

 

[Phoenix]

Judge Silver understood the concept of waiting in line. (tenure)
 
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
 
US Airways, Inc.,
Plaintiff,
vs.
Don Addington, et al.,
Defendants.
))))))))))
No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS
AMENDED JUDGMENT
(to add description of class)
 
Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”
 
DATED this 4th day of December, 2012.
 
Judge Silver

The West has a fickle love of the word "binding". They love contingent "final and binding", but blissfully ignore multiple binding judgmentS.

 

[Zone5]

Yeah I soloed a glider in 77 at 14 but you mr snap still want to put me at the bottom behind your kids...... Ain't gonna happen....

I hear you and can't agree more. My Mom had to drive me to the airport when I soloed on my 16th birthday in 1969, because I didn't have a drivers license yet!


seajay

 

[Freighterguynow]

Interesting read at the bottom. It says that AFTER the 30 days the APFA will become the new union. HOWEVER, the AFA will STILL represent the US Airways FA's until a JCBA. And even after that, the AFA will continue to process grievances that arose under US Airways. 
 
I guess it's different for a pilots union opposed to a FA union. I mean how can the NMB allow another union to have ANY input after the APFA is declared the union? Unless that's how it's supposed to work...
 
I'm betting it's stuff like that which will be defined by a protocol agreement for the pilots.
 
Thanks Trader for supplying that information. I guess it's not unheard of for USAPA to expect the same...

This decision does not change AFAs legal standing as the representative of Flight Attendants at pre-merger US Airways. It is a step in the process that, under the ratified Agreement on Bargaining and Representation (ABR) will conclude with APFA representation of all Flight Attendants at the new American.

A few points to note immediately:

AFA remains the representative of pre-merger US Airways Flight Attendants until the NMB certifies APFA, which will occur no earlier than 30 days from today.
AFA remains an equal partner in negotiations for the single Contract at the new American.
The AFA/US Airways contract remains in full force and effect until the new contract is implemented and AFA will enforce the contract throughout this period, even after APFA becomes the representative. Further, the US Airways contract provides leverage and value in shaping the single contract at the new American.
Current AFA leaders will transition to APFA Board member positions, and AFA Local and MEC structures will remain in place until the new contract is implemented in order to facilitate enforcement of the pre-merger US Airways contract.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/07/nmb-agrees-with-flight-attendants-that-american-airlines-and-us-airways-are-single-transportation-system.html/

 

[Black Swan]

This decision does not change AFAs legal standing as the representative of Flight Attendants at pre-merger US Airways. It is a step in the process that, under the ratified Agreement on Bargaining and Representation (ABR) will conclude with APFA representation of all Flight Attendants at the new American.
A few points to note immediately:
AFA remains the representative of pre-merger US Airways Flight Attendants until the NMB certifies APFA, which will occur no earlier than 30 days from today.
AFA remains an equal partner in negotiations for the single Contract at the new American.
The AFA/US Airways contract remains in full force and effect until the new contract is implemented and AFA will enforce the contract throughout this period, even after APFA becomes the representative. Further, the US Airways contract provides leverage and value in shaping the single contract at the new American.
Current AFA leaders will transition to APFA Board member positions, and AFA Local and MEC structures will remain in place until the new contract is implemented in order to facilitate enforcement of the pre-merger US Airways contract.http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/07/nmb-agrees-with-flight-attendants-that-american-airlines-and-us-airways-are-single-transportation-system.html/

East pilots need to remain focused on the fact we have the best legal team possible going forward. East pilots need to tune out Chip Munn and West posters saying USAPA will vanish immediately before the SLI is concluded. USAPA will see this through to its' conclusion.
The APA is quite possibly going to go to arbitration, which is a very good thing for East pilots, seeing the wide body flying the APA is willing to risk.
You have been seeing Munn, Traderjake and West posters feeding completely incorrect M/B protocol to you. The F/A protocol is exactly what we will see.

 

[luvthe9]

East pilots need to remain focused on the fact we have the best legal team possible going forward. East pilots need to tune out Chip Munn and West posters saying USAPA will vanish immediately before the SLI is concluded. USAPA will see this through to its' conclusion.
The APA is quite possibly going to go to arbitration, which is a very good thing for East pilots, seeing the wide body flying the APA is willing to risk.
You have been seeing Munn, Traderjake and West posters feeding completely incorrect M/B protocol to you. The F/A protocol is exactly what we will see.

I think everyone has already tuned out Traitor and his mentor Munn, two of our biggest idiots. Apparently talks are moving in a position direction, Wilson knows if this goes to MB they have a lot more to lose than we do, as you stated, however I think they are in no hurry at all as both AA and east capture attrition, the west made the choice to to join in on the growth.

It's in the best interest of the west pilots to put the last ten years behind them and dump AOL, the group that has inflicted so much damage on the west pilots. How can a pilot group give up so much in wide body slots, upgrades and base changes, it's got to stop.

 

[USA320Pilot]

After discussing union representation with the DOL-OLMS, looking at NMB decisions, and reading court (labor) orders it has become clear to me the government seeks to mediate union disputes and attempts to get the parties to reach a consensual decision. The CWA, US IAM-AA TWU, & AA APFA-US AFA all have reached agreements that the NMB has endorsed. In the case of AA APA and US USAPA there is a dispute and it appears the NMB is attempting to broker an acceptable solution to the Airline Parties. 

According to Gary Hummel, “NMB Chief of Staff Dan Rainey suggested the parties (AAG, APA, & USAPA) engage in private mediation concerning the Protocol Agreement (PA).”

The interesting part is apparently the NMB is not interested in nor did Gary discuss USAPA’s desire for a Union Merger Transition Agreement (UMTA), Global Agreement (GA), and M-B Injunction lawsuit settlement. Therefore, my question is will USAPA reach an agreement with AAG and AAG for a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration, per APA’s initial draft PA (an exhibit to US Airways’ Motion to Correct in the Addington II DFR case) and US Airways’ Summary Judgment or will the US Airways pilots union continue its push to remain relevant during the next 18 to 24 months seeking other agreements that are unacceptable to APA? For example, USAPA has sought to: 

· Obligate APA to pay post-single carrier USAPA bills, including costs of its current headquarters
· Maintain USAPA's independent operation authority throughout the JCBA and SLI process
· Pay for ongoing litigation expenses in Addington and any subsequent DFR cases
· Recognize USAPA as a party to the protocol agreement even after USAPA ceases to be the certified bargaining representative (contrary to its own position in the Addington litigation, the judge's ruling in that case and the specific language of the MOU)

According to APA the unions VP “FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands, including (the bullet points above). These are not commitments APA is willing to entertain and are what brought seniority protocol negotiations to a halt.”

If USAPA agrees to a PA that meets the commitments negotiated in the MOU, the RLA, and to a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration then there is the possibility of negotiated settlement. If not then I expect the NMB to rule that APA can become the joint union for all New American pilots through SCS like Feds did with the APFA and AFA.

Next week should be interesting…

 

[700UW]

Your lying the NMB as not endorsed anything with the IAM and TWU, both unions havent petitioned the NMB for SCS nor have they petitioned for the Alliance vote.
 
The CWA/IBT Association has not reached deal the the NMB, the NMB has scheduled a vote for the combined PMUS and PMAA agents at the NEW AA.

 

[Black Swan]

We all just got a very clear message from the NMB. There is no "West" pilot group anymore.
Leonidas is now merely a social club that hires an attorney for a cause that is no longer recognized as anything legal. Leonidas sells ties, has meet and greets, and maintains a website. But it has no more legal force in this integration. Simply put, Leonidas has all the legal standing or power as do organizations like the Moose or Elks. No more
The NMB will deal with the Company, USAPA, and the APA. That is all.
. The Nicolau list has NOBODY to carry it forward in the integration process with any legal standing or recognized authority. Nobody.
The APA has done their legal cover and acted as if the wanted to help the PHX pilots. They secretly acknowledged it was all just a feint to absolve themselves of any lawsuit. They knew from day one USAPA is and was the only union with representative power for ALL USAirways pilots. They merely played the game. Now that the NMB has officially met with the three parties, it is absolutely clear who they see as the only valid parties. There was NO mention of anything " West pilot group."
Simply put, East pilots have prevailed. The Nicolau list is a non factor. This thing with the PHX pilots is finished. No matter what Munn says, it is over.

 

[luvthe9]

We all just got a very clear message from the NMB. There is no "West" pilot group anymore.
The Nicolau list is a non factor. This thing with the PHX pilots is finished. No matter what Munn says, it is over.

Well some good news might be coming out, heard from a friend in 330 school a foreign carrier cancelled an order for the 350s and we might be in talks with Airbus now to bring them here by the end of 2015, earlier than previously planned, let's hope it true.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

After discussing union representation with the DOL-OLMS, looking at NMB decisions, and reading court (labor) orders it has become clear to me the government seeks to mediate union disputes and attempts to get the parties to reach a consensual decision. The CWA, US IAM-AA TWU, & AA APFA-US AFA all have reached agreements that the NMB has endorsed. In the case of AA APA and US USAPA there is a dispute and it appears the NMB is attempting to broker an acceptable solution to the Airline Parties. [/size]According to Gary Hummel, “NMB Chief of Staff Dan Rainey suggested the parties (AAG, APA, & USAPA) engage in private mediation concerning the Protocol Agreement (PA).”[/size]The interesting part is apparently the NMB is not interested in nor did Gary discuss USAPA’s desire for a Union Merger Transition Agreement (UMTA), Global Agreement (GA), and M-B Injunction lawsuit settlement. Therefore, my question is will USAPA reach an agreement with AAG and AAG for a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration, per APA’s initial draft PA (an exhibit to US Airways’ Motion to Correct in the Addington II DFR case) and US Airways’ Summary Judgment or will the US Airways pilots union continue its push to remain relevant during the next 18 to 24 months seeking other agreements that are unacceptable to APA? For example, USAPA has sought to: [/size]· Obligate APA to pay post-single carrier USAPA bills, including costs of its current headquarters[/size]· Maintain USAPA's independent operation authority throughout the JCBA and SLI process[/size]· Pay for ongoing litigation expenses in Addington and any subsequent DFR cases[/size]· Recognize USAPA as a party to the protocol agreement even after USAPA ceases to be the certified bargaining representative (contrary to its own position in the Addington litigation, the judge's ruling in that case and the specific language of the MOU)[/size]According to APA the unions VP “FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands, including (the bullet points above). These are not commitments APA is willing to entertain and are what brought seniority protocol negotiations to a halt.”[/size]If USAPA agrees to a PA that meets the commitments negotiated in the MOU, the RLA, and to a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration then there is the possibility of negotiated settlement. If not then I expect the NMB to rule that APA can become the joint union for all New American pilots through SCS like Feds did with the APFA and AFA.[/size]Next week should be interesting…[/size]

. I agree it will be interesting week reading your utterly ridiculous understanding of the situation at hand! MM

 

[USA320Pilot]

[SIZE=10pt]I find it interesting that APA has not publicly commented that THE "NMB asked the parties (APA, USAPA and the Company) to meet with NMB Chief of Staff Dan Rainey. The meeting took place in Washington, D.C., at the NMB on Wednesday, July 23. At the meeting Mr. Rainey suggested the parties engage in private mediation concerning the Protocol Agreement."[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]According to Gary Hummel "The parties have agreed to this suggestion and have asked George Cohen, former head of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service (FMCS), to act as the mediator.[/SIZE]"
 
[SIZE=10pt]From a political standpoint APA had no choice but to agree with the NMBs request while the union waits on the SCS decision. But, it's important to note that Hummel iw right when he said, "Mediation is a process in which the mediator assists the parties in reaching a voluntary resolution. The mediator has no authority to compel any party to make any agreement.[/SIZE]"
 
[SIZE=10pt]Therefore, unless USAPA decides to abide by the pilot's contract I suspect there will be no mediated settlement and next week's discussions will simple be "going through the motions" until the NMB declares APA the combined pilot group's agent.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Meanwhile, it remains unclear if the Nicolau Award will be implemented in the upcoming M-B ISL arbitration, if held. In my opinion, the pilots are likely to have a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration with 3 MCs. The West pilots will then be able to argue their view of the New American Airlines Pilot SL, which may or may not include the NIC. With that said, it would not surprise me in the least if the pilots end up with an ISL similar in scope to the Nicolau Award in their integration with AA with 3 parties sharing relative seniority: AA pilots, East pilots, and West pilots.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Moreover, I believe USAPA is going to have a very difficult time arguing its judicial estoppel problem next week and why it believes final and binding is not really final and binding. Why? How can USAPA argue that in the practice of law it is ok to commit a judicial estoppel violation (also known as estoppel by inconsistent positions) that is an estoppel which precludes a party from taking a position in a case which is contrary to a position they have taken in earlier legal proceedings? And, how will USAPA explain to George Cohen, former head of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, or any mediator or arbitrator, that final and binding is only a suggestion and is not binding on the parties, if asked? [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Yes, these are interesting times indeed with next week's discussions between the Airlines Parties and Mediator Cohen next up. But, with AAG and APA seeking a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration, per US Airways Motion to Correct/APA Draft PA Exhibit, as part of any new PA, it seems almost certain the DFR issue, "unquestionably ripe (for) DFR" position of the Ninth Circuit Court; as well as USAPA's GA, UMTA, and lawsuit settlement positions will certainly be at the forefront of discussions.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Finally, will USAPA's growing thirst to remain relevant, collect industry leading FPL/stipends, and unwavering desire for power outweigh the need to obtain a PA before a SCS determination is made? Time will tell...        [/SIZE]  

 

[Phoenix]

..... If USAPA agrees to a PA that meets the commitments negotiated in the MOU, the RLA, and to a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration then there is the possibility of negotiated settlement.

This is proof that anyone can post anything on the web, and that sanity is not necessary to get access.

If the West were to get access to MB, they too would be bereft of sanity and would never agree to any negotiation apart from the Nic. Arbitration would be an outright certainty.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

This is proof that anyone can post anything on the web, and that sanity is not necessary to get access.
If the West were to get access to MB, they too would be bereft of sanity and would never agree to any negotiation apart from the Nic. Arbitration would be an outright certainty.

. I just love it when someone makes your case for you! Hilarious MM

 

[luvthe9]

"Captain Munn and his few supporters have put out a constant stream of misrepresentations that are easily disproved. "