2014 Pilot Discussion

[nycbusdriver]

I hear you and can't agree more. My Mom had to drive me to the airport when I soloed on my 16th birthday in 1969, because I didn't have a drivers license yet!


seajay

 
In college (an aviation school) one of the jokes was that a 17 year, New Yorker old private pilot could legally fly his Cessna into JFK but could not legally drive away from the FBO because, at that time, one had to be 18 to have a New York drive license.
 
And I think the old sitcom "Wings", i their first season, hired a teen-age co-pilot who had to be driven to work by his mother for the same reason.

 

[traderjake]

I think everyone has already tuned out Traitor and his mentor Munn, two of our biggest idiots.

 
Says  Mr  "Recall Hummel - Vote Down the MOU".
 
Do you even read what what you post?

 

[luvthe9]

Says  Mr  "Recall Hummel - Vote Down the MOU".
 
Do you even read what what you post?

Yes, and most will agree with me that no one listens to you or Munn.

 

[end_of_alpa]

[SIZE=10pt]I find it interesting that APA has not publicly commented that THE "NMB asked the parties (APA, USAPA and the Company) to meet with NMB Chief of Staff Dan Rainey. The meeting took place in Washington, D.C., at the NMB on Wednesday, July 23. At the meeting Mr. Rainey suggested the parties engage in private mediation concerning the Protocol Agreement."[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]According to Gary Hummel "The parties have agreed to this suggestion and have asked George Cohen, former head of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service (FMCS), to act as the mediator.[/SIZE]"
 
[SIZE=10pt]From a political standpoint APA had no choice but to agree with the NMBs request while the union waits on the SCS decision. But, it's important to note that Hummel iw right when he said, "Mediation is a process in which the mediator assists the parties in reaching a voluntary resolution. The mediator has no authority to compel any party to make any agreement.[/SIZE]"
 
[SIZE=10pt]Therefore, unless USAPA decides to abide by the pilot's contract I suspect there will be no mediated settlement and next week's discussions will simple be "going through the motions" until the NMB declares APA the combined pilot group's agent.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Meanwhile, it remains unclear if the Nicolau Award will be implemented in the upcoming M-B ISL arbitration, if held. In my opinion, the pilots are likely to have a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration with 3 MCs. The West pilots will then be able to argue their view of the New American Airlines Pilot SL, which may or may not include the NIC. With that said, it would not surprise me in the least if the pilots end up with an ISL similar in scope to the Nicolau Award in their integration with AA with 3 parties sharing relative seniority: AA pilots, East pilots, and West pilots.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Moreover, I believe USAPA is going to have a very difficult time arguing its judicial estoppel problem next week and why it believes final and binding is not really final and binding. Why? How can USAPA argue that in the practice of law it is ok to commit a judicial estoppel violation (also known as estoppel by inconsistent positions) that is an estoppel which precludes a party from taking a position in a case which is contrary to a position they have taken in earlier legal proceedings? And, how will USAPA explain to George Cohen, former head of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, or any mediator or arbitrator, that final and binding is only a suggestion and is not binding on the parties, if asked? [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Yes, these are interesting times indeed with next week's discussions between the Airlines Parties and Mediator Cohen next up. But, with AAG and APA seeking a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration, per US Airways Motion to Correct/APA Draft PA Exhibit, as part of any new PA, it seems almost certain the DFR issue, "unquestionably ripe (for) DFR" position of the Ninth Circuit Court; as well as USAPA's GA, UMTA, and lawsuit settlement positions will certainly be at the forefront of discussions.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Finally, will USAPA's growing thirst to remain relevant, collect industry leading FPL/stipends, and unwavering desire for power outweigh the need to obtain a PA before a SCS determination is made? Time will tell...        [/SIZE]  

Translation:  "WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BAD WOLF.....THE BIG BAD WOLF..... THE BIG BAD WOLF.
 
WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BAD WOLF?  TRA LA LA LA LA."

 

[USA320Pilot]

Your lying the NMB as not endorsed anything with the IAM and TWU, both unions havent petitioned the NMB for SCS nor have they petitioned for the Alliance vote.
 
The CWA/IBT Association has not reached deal the the NMB, the NMB has scheduled a vote for the combined PMUS and PMAA agents at the NEW AA.

 
[SIZE=10pt]USA320Pilot said:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] "The CWA, US IAM-AA TWU, & AA APFA-US AFA all have reached agreements that the NMB has endorsed."[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]USA320Pilot expands:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] According to AA, "The TWU and the IAM entered into a representation alliance agreement in May 2013 for Fleet Service, Mechanic and Related and Material Logistic Specialists. Now that the IAM has reached three ratified agreements with American, the next step will be for the TWU and the IAM to jointly file for single carrier status with the NMB."[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]I never said " the NMB as not endorsed anything with the IAM and TWU, both unions havent petitioned the NMB for SCS nor have they petitioned for the Alliance vote." What I said was, "The CWA, US IAM-AA TWU, & AA APFA-US AFA all have reached agreements that the NMB has endorsed."[/SIZE]

 

[USA320Pilot]

What I find interesting is that people on this message cannot dispute the facts or debate without insulting others. It's rather juvenile.
 
"Most people who insult other people are insecure. They think that it will make them feel better if they put someone else down, or they insult the other person to take attention off of themselves. Sometimes people who are angry insult other people because they are not mature enough to think of a different way to handle their anger except to try to start a fight or to try to make the other person feel bad. Mature people can communicate with others without insulting them. Any ideas can be discussed between mature adults without fighting or insulting each other. Mature people can "agree to disagree" and give each other the right to have different opinions. The best way to handle an insult is to ignore it, because what the immature person wants is to make you upset. If you cannot ignore the insult, you can say something like, "Mature people don't have to insult each other to communicate," and walk away. Walking away is always best because the immature person is not going to change and suddenly stop acting immature. If the person insulting you is someone you want to keep as a friend, you should say something like, "That really hurts my feelings when you say something like that. Can we talk without insults?" - this lets the person know that they need to change their behavior, and if they are friends, they will want to change and mature. Other reasons could include boredom, desire to be funny, genuine or learned hatred of another person or culture. Insults could depend on the situation, and it could be a person's way of taking their anger out on one person instead of the thing they are angry at. Insults can also be used as a form of control, whether it is to control another person, to control a conversation. Insulting outbursts are often used by people who are angry that their lives are out of control in other ways."

 

[700UW]

The IAM and TWU members have to still vote on it and nothing has been filed with the NMB as of yet.
 
 

 
[SIZE=10pt]USA320Pilot said:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] "The CWA, US IAM-AA TWU, & AA APFA-US AFA all have reached agreements that the NMB has endorsed."[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]USA320Pilot expands:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] According to AA, "The TWU and the IAM entered into a representation alliance agreement in May 2013 for Fleet Service, Mechanic and Related and Material Logistic Specialists. Now that the IAM has reached three ratified agreements with American, the next step will be for the TWU and the IAM to jointly file for single carrier status with the NMB."[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]I never said " the NMB as not endorsed anything with the IAM and TWU, both unions havent petitioned the NMB for SCS nor have they petitioned for the Alliance vote." What I said was, "The CWA, US IAM-AA TWU, & AA APFA-US AFA all have reached agreements that the NMB has endorsed."[/SIZE]

 
You are lying once again.
 

After discussing union representation with the DOL-OLMS, looking at NMB decisions, and reading court (labor) orders it has become clear to me the government seeks to mediate union disputes and attempts to get the parties to reach a consensual decision. The CWA, US IAM-AA TWU, & AA APFA-US AFA all have reached agreements that the NMB has endorsed. In the case of AA APA and US USAPA there is a dispute and it appears the NMB is attempting to broker an acceptable solution to the Airline Parties. 

According to Gary Hummel, “NMB Chief of Staff Dan Rainey suggested the parties (AAG, APA, & USAPA) engage in private mediation concerning the Protocol Agreement (PA).”

The interesting part is apparently the NMB is not interested in nor did Gary discuss USAPA’s desire for a Union Merger Transition Agreement (UMTA), Global Agreement (GA), and M-B Injunction lawsuit settlement. Therefore, my question is will USAPA reach an agreement with AAG and AAG for a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration, per APA’s initial draft PA (an exhibit to US Airways’ Motion to Correct in the Addington II DFR case) and US Airways’ Summary Judgment or will the US Airways pilots union continue its push to remain relevant during the next 18 to 24 months seeking other agreements that are unacceptable to APA? For example, USAPA has sought to: 

· Obligate APA to pay post-single carrier USAPA bills, including costs of its current headquarters
· Maintain USAPA's independent operation authority throughout the JCBA and SLI process
· Pay for ongoing litigation expenses in Addington and any subsequent DFR cases
· Recognize USAPA as a party to the protocol agreement even after USAPA ceases to be the certified bargaining representative (contrary to its own position in the Addington litigation, the judge's ruling in that case and the specific language of the MOU)

According to APA the unions VP “FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands, including (the bullet points above). These are not commitments APA is willing to entertain and are what brought seniority protocol negotiations to a halt.”

If USAPA agrees to a PA that meets the commitments negotiated in the MOU, the RLA, and to a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration then there is the possibility of negotiated settlement. If not then I expect the NMB to rule that APA can become the joint union for all New American pilots through SCS like Feds did with the APFA and AFA.

Next week should be interesting…

 

[end_of_alpa]

What I find interesting is that people on this message cannot dispute the facts or debate without insulting others. It's rather juvenile.
 
"Most people who insult other people are insecure. They think that it will make them feel better if they put someone else down, or they insult the other person to take attention off of themselves. Sometimes people who are angry insult other people because they are not mature enough to think of a different way to handle their anger except to try to start a fight or to try to make the other person feel bad. Mature people can communicate with others without insulting them. Any ideas can be discussed between mature adults without fighting or insulting each other. Mature people can "agree to disagree" and give each other the right to have different opinions. The best way to handle an insult is to ignore it, because what the immature person wants is to make you upset. If you cannot ignore the insult, you can say something like, "Mature people don't have to insult each other to communicate," and walk away. Walking away is always best because the immature person is not going to change and suddenly stop acting immature. If the person insulting you is someone you want to keep as a friend, you should say something like, "That really hurts my feelings when you say something like that. Can we talk without insults?" - this lets the person know that they need to change their behavior, and if they are friends, they will want to change and mature. Other reasons could include boredom, desire to be funny, genuine or learned hatred of another person or culture. Insults could depend on the situation, and it could be a person's way of taking their anger out on one person instead of the thing they are angry at. Insults can also be used as a form of control, whether it is to control another person, to control a conversation. Insulting outbursts are often used by people who are angry that their lives are out of control in other ways."

Chip, I've only addressed you in the past with the attitude that "Mature people can communicate with others without insulting them."  For you, however, there isn't any amount of FACTS that one can present without a totally inaccurate, trite, basic and uneducated responses from you.  There hasn't been ANY opinion you have rendered that has ever come to fruition.  You're lack of legal knowledge and you're grasp of case law is apparent.  Notice that when I ANSWER you, I provide CASE AND CITATION.  When you respond, you give opinion.
 
The case law is clear here.  The NMB, APA and AAL are the ONLY THREE PARTIES talking.  PERIOD.  The NMB has ".... suggested the parties engage in private mediation concerning the Protocol Agreement."
"The parties have agreed to this suggestion and have asked George Cohen, former head of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service (FMCS), to act as the mediator."
Mr. Cohen is NOT without controversy, however.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._Cohen
Having said that, it is apparent that the NMB is interested in facilitating a successful outcome and there is a very GOOD chance (my opinion, but based on Mr. Cohen's successful tract record to date) that it will come to fruition.  Remember that "The NMB asked the parties (APA, USAPA and the Company) to meet with NMB Chief of Staff Dan Rainey. The meeting took place in Washington, D.C., at the NMB on Wednesday, July 23. At the meeting Mr. Rainey suggested the parties engage in private mediation concerning the Protocol Agreement."
Chip if you really wanted to actually have a successful course of conversation it would be helpful if you went to law school.  Absent that, how about actually discussing the law and not the conjecture an repetition of "judicial estoppel" which doesn't even apply here, contrary to what you hear from your legal consul.

 

[Claxon]

Motives for usa320 and tradejake.  alpa has message board spinners, if you do not believe me check out airline pilot central message board for all airlines.  If you dis alpa on that message board you are kicked off. 
 
Usaviation allows opinions, regardless of their embellishment, to have a forum.
 
alpa's terrible and dishonest nic award has been kicked to the curb and it makes alpa look like donkey dung.
 
Thank you Usaviation forum and USAPA, for letting me thumb my nose at alpa.

 

[Pi brat]

What I find interesting is that people on this message cannot dispute the facts or debate without insulting others. It's rather juvenile.
 
"Most people who insult other people are insecure. ."

Sept 13 2007 USA320 wrote:
 
"Junebug,

You have been proven before to not only misrepresent information, but to flat out lie and you're doing it again.

Junebug said: "And Prater did not tell anyone that about "stewing" in anything.

USA320pilot responds: I talked to a buddy of mine who told him this directly. What is interesting is how would you know what was said, where you there?

Junebug said: "I've talked to a buddy of mine whose close to Prater and he said he was fed up with the east's nonsense and he was going to do what he should have done in May. This has been backed up with his latest email the was sent out to all east and west pilots."

USA320Pilot responds: Wrong again. Doug Parker is very concerned about the situation at hand and he knows he cannot put the two airlines together because the US Airways pilots will never vote for a new contract if it triggers the Nicolau Award.

Junebug said: "As for USAPA, I understand that their money situation is becoming quite dire and they have resorted to begging. Cards are great, but you need money to make it all work."

USA320Pilot responds: Wrong again. It does not take a lot of money to operate via the Internet or by word-of-mouth. And, when you and others are accessed to help fund USAPA next quarter the USAPA treasury will grow.

Moreover, many successful independent unions have started with nothing but debt. By contrast, USAPA is operating in the black and anticipated dues flow will more than cover our financial needs. Remember, we will not have an enormous bureaucracy in Washington, D.C. to support.

According to USAPA, "We have enough to do the initial work to get to a representational dispute determination. We will need more to conduct an effective campaign for election (the last mailing cost over $3K) and also for the legal advice we are getting. We have the premier law firm in this area of law; Lee Seham’s father was the man who represented the APA pilots in 1962 when they left ALPA. That case went to the Supreme Court and APA prevailed. Bottom line, until we win the election and start receiving dues."

Junebug said: "And, it is yet to be determined whether or not we are a SBU. I'm sure USAPA knows how badly the east has pissed off their feeders. Enough so that they're willing to do anything to get even - even dillute those 2400 cards. Ask about this scenario during your next 10 hour phone call with USAPA."

USA320Pilot responds: You're wrong on two counts here. Yesterday Piedmont Chairman Gordon Daniels addressed the MEC and I know exactly what was said. Daniels is courting the MEC to create flow through support. And, my conversation was not on the phone with Stephen Bradford because we sat next to each other from PIT-SFO & a return, as well as spend 24 hours together in SFO.

As far as the wholly owned pilots voting, they’re not a part of our union’s and they will not have time to be a part of the group before the USAPA vote takes place.

Junebug said: "And, its an iron-clad guarantee, that Nicolau will stand along with our respective CBA (LOA93 in your case) should a new union come on property."

USA320Pilot comments: The majority of US Airways pilots have no problem with LOA 93 remaining in place because it prevents the Nicolau Award from being implemented. Do the East pilots want a pay raise? Absolutely, and they are going to keep fighting until they get one. However, according to Lee Seham The Nicolau is the product of an ALPA-mandated process and ALPA is bound to defend that process. The ALPA-US Airways MEC cannot prevail in its current litigation because it voluntarily submitted to the ALPA-mandated process. The USAPA, however, is not bound by ALPA's Constitution and cannot be subjected to ALPA’s political control. USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

USA320Pilot concludes: Junebug, it's over for the AWA pilots and if you're not nice you might get stapled to the bottom of the new seniority list.

Now I believe USAPA will be fair to the AWA pilots follwoing union "imposition". According to USAPA, "We have a federally protected right under the RLA to change union representatives. A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness."

By the way, I just received an email from an ALPA EVP who said, "Solutions are available, but they will require compromises on both sides. Otherwise, the award is useless, and both sides lose. There are ways to mitigate the effects of the award; vacating the award is next to, if not impossible. I think both sides need to reasonably assess their options. I think the motivation of ALPA trying to find solutions has been greatly misconstrued. If these attempts fail, those with the most to lose are not other ALPA pilots or ALPA National, it is the US Airways pilots themselves. There has been progress, but the pace has been discouraging - at times."

Junebug, since the AWA MEC has just begun to negotiate a settlement to the Nicolau Award problem, with behind-the-scenes activity, I believe the pace of these negotiations must dramatically pick up or you will be forced to pay USAPA union dues or be placed in bad standing around the first of the year.

By the way, when do you start your fourth year of AWA service and how is your advancement going? What's interesting is that the AWA pilots could found (and maybe still can) a way to capture and share some of the seniority list growth, but people like you and your MEC are creating a war you cannot win because the US Airways pilots will control all voting.

Regards,

USA320Pilot"

 

[Claxon]

 
From: LGA135@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LGA135@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald
Iorio
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 9:10 AM
To: LGA135@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LGA135] <no subject>
 
The following is from ALPA’s Administration Manual, section 40
Collective Bargaining; How they doing so far?
 
Part 5----CONTENTS OF AGREEMENTS
In the negotiation of agreements, every reasonable effort shall be made to
achieve and
maintain the following:
 
C. Pay
1. ELIMINATION OF ALL "B SCALES"
SOURCE - Board 1992; Amended – Board 1998; Reaffirmed – Board 2006
Complete elimination of all "B-Scales" continues to be a top ALPA bargaining
priority. Each agreement that contains a "B-Scale" shall include a Section 6
proposal to accomplish this objective. Each Negotiating Committee shall
make every effort to achieve this goal and to improve "B-Scale" rates until it
is achieved. ALPA shall adamantly oppose any management effort at further
"B-Scale" incursion in pay or benefits or to establish any type of "C-Scale,"
using all legitimate means available.
 
H. SENIORITY
 
1. SYSTEM SENIORITY
SOURCE - Executive Board July 1949; AMENDED - Executive Board May 1986
It shall be ALPA's goal to achieve seniority Sections in all agreements. Such
Sections shall embody the concept of system seniority, as opposed to base
seniority or any other kind, as the method for delineating pilot relationships.
 
3. SENIORITY - GENERAL
SOURCE - Board 1956; AMENDED - Executive Board December 1971;
Administrative January 1998 (Canada Reference Added); Executive Board
September 1998
 
a. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as a pilot
with the Company.
 
b. Seniority shall begin to accrue from the date upon which a pilot
employed by the Company as a pilot begins initial operational training
required to perform such duties in airline operations and shall continue to
accrue during such period of employment except as otherwise provided in
his agreement. The date upon which a pilot first appears upon the
Company's payroll as a pilot and begins initial operational training required
to perform such duties in airline operations shall establish such pilot's
position on the System Seniority List. When two or more pilots are placed
on the seniority list on the same date, they shall be placed on such list
according to their age; i.e., the oldest pilot shall receive the lowest number,
except where prohibited by law.
 
d. Seniority shall govern all pilots in case of promotion and demotion,
their retention in case of reduction in force, their assignment or
reassignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, their
reemployment after release due to reduction in schedules, their
reemployment after release due to reduction in force, and their choice of
vacancies, provided that the pilot's qualifications are sufficient for the
operation to which he is to be assigned. In the event that a pilot is
considered by the Company not to be sufficiently qualified, the Company
shall immediately furnish such pilot written reasons therefore.
 
Follow the three prong approach, Fly safe, Family First, and SAP down
for quality of life.
 
Fraternally,
 
Eric Rowe Dave Ciabattoni Jim Portale
Chairman Vice Chairman Secretary/Treasurer
 

When alpa handled the East and west transition agreement they brought west up to East retirement, profit sharing and jumpseat, but failed to even up the wages.  alpa disregarded seniority in an attempt to set up united pilots seniority grab for a merger with USairways.  When USAPA was voted in, united airlines called off the merger with USairways and promptly furloughed 1500 pilots.  You negotiate with fork tongue alpa.
 
Nice try.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Sept 13 2007 USA320 wrote:
 
"Junebug,

You have been proven before to not only misrepresent information, but to flat out lie and you're doing it again.

Junebug said: "And Prater did not tell anyone that about "stewing" in anything.

USA320pilot responds: I talked to a buddy of mine who told him this directly. What is interesting is how would you know what was said, where you there?

Junebug said: "I've talked to a buddy of mine whose close to Prater and he said he was fed up with the east's nonsense and he was going to do what he should have done in May. This has been backed up with his latest email the was sent out to all east and west pilots."

USA320Pilot responds: Wrong again. Doug Parker is very concerned about the situation at hand and he knows he cannot put the two airlines together because the US Airways pilots will never vote for a new contract if it triggers the Nicolau Award.

Junebug said: "As for USAPA, I understand that their money situation is becoming quite dire and they have resorted to begging. Cards are great, but you need money to make it all work."

USA320Pilot responds: Wrong again. It does not take a lot of money to operate via the Internet or by word-of-mouth. And, when you and others are accessed to help fund USAPA next quarter the USAPA treasury will grow.

Moreover, many successful independent unions have started with nothing but debt. By contrast, USAPA is operating in the black and anticipated dues flow will more than cover our financial needs. Remember, we will not have an enormous bureaucracy in Washington, D.C. to support.

According to USAPA, "We have enough to do the initial work to get to a representational dispute determination. We will need more to conduct an effective campaign for election (the last mailing cost over $3K) and also for the legal advice we are getting. We have the premier law firm in this area of law; Lee Seham’s father was the man who represented the APA pilots in 1962 when they left ALPA. That case went to the Supreme Court and APA prevailed. Bottom line, until we win the election and start receiving dues."

Junebug said: "And, it is yet to be determined whether or not we are a SBU. I'm sure USAPA knows how badly the east has pissed off their feeders. Enough so that they're willing to do anything to get even - even dillute those 2400 cards. Ask about this scenario during your next 10 hour phone call with USAPA."

USA320Pilot responds: You're wrong on two counts here. Yesterday Piedmont Chairman Gordon Daniels addressed the MEC and I know exactly what was said. Daniels is courting the MEC to create flow through support. And, my conversation was not on the phone with Stephen Bradford because we sat next to each other from PIT-SFO & a return, as well as spend 24 hours together in SFO.

As far as the wholly owned pilots voting, they’re not a part of our union’s and they will not have time to be a part of the group before the USAPA vote takes place.

Junebug said: "And, its an iron-clad guarantee, that Nicolau will stand along with our respective CBA (LOA93 in your case) should a new union come on property."

USA320Pilot comments: The majority of US Airways pilots have no problem with LOA 93 remaining in place because it prevents the Nicolau Award from being implemented. Do the East pilots want a pay raise? Absolutely, and they are going to keep fighting until they get one. However, according to Lee Seham The Nicolau is the product of an ALPA-mandated process and ALPA is bound to defend that process. The ALPA-US Airways MEC cannot prevail in its current litigation because it voluntarily submitted to the ALPA-mandated process. The USAPA, however, is not bound by ALPA's Constitution and cannot be subjected to ALPA’s political control. USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

USA320Pilot concludes: Junebug, it's over for the AWA pilots and if you're not nice you might get stapled to the bottom of the new seniority list.

Now I believe USAPA will be fair to the AWA pilots follwoing union "imposition". According to USAPA, "We have a federally protected right under the RLA to change union representatives. A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness."

By the way, I just received an email from an ALPA EVP who said, "Solutions are available, but they will require compromises on both sides. Otherwise, the award is useless, and both sides lose. There are ways to mitigate the effects of the award; vacating the award is next to, if not impossible. I think both sides need to reasonably assess their options. I think the motivation of ALPA trying to find solutions has been greatly misconstrued. If these attempts fail, those with the most to lose are not other ALPA pilots or ALPA National, it is the US Airways pilots themselves. There has been progress, but the pace has been discouraging - at times."

Junebug, since the AWA MEC has just begun to negotiate a settlement to the Nicolau Award problem, with behind-the-scenes activity, I believe the pace of these negotiations must dramatically pick up or you will be forced to pay USAPA union dues or be placed in bad standing around the first of the year.

By the way, when do you start your fourth year of AWA service and how is your advancement going? What's interesting is that the AWA pilots could found (and maybe still can) a way to capture and share some of the seniority list growth, but people like you and your MEC are creating a war you cannot win because the US Airways pilots will control all voting.

Regards,

USA320Pilot"

The pilots for the New American are about to write a new chapter in aviation history.  In a few years it won't matter what was said on this web board and the electrons that go with it.  One thing is very clear.  The reason for the talks between USAPA, APA and AAL are very simple.  We're moving on and the small parts are going to be disposed of quickly and without fanfare.  I'm sure Cohen will point that out.  One thing is self evident and clear:  The parties HAVE been established and they are those GOING to the meeting.  Once that fact is established next week the rest of the pieces for the Protocol agreement will fall into place and 13(b) of McCaskill Bond will have been established.
 
The rest is, as they say, history.
 
Let Chip have his "forum" for it let's the majority of sane individuals know him for what he is.

 

[Claxon]

Sept 13 2007 USA320 wrote:
 
"Junebug,
You have been proven before to not only misrepresent information, but to flat out lie and you're doing it again.Junebug said: "And Prater did not tell anyone that about "stewing" in anything.USA320pilot responds: I talked to a buddy of mine who told him this directly. What is interesting is how would you know what was said, where you there?Junebug said: "I've talked to a buddy of mine whose close to Prater and he said he was fed up with the east's nonsense and he was going to do what he should have done in May. This has been backed up with his latest email the was sent out to all east and west pilots."USA320Pilot responds: Wrong again. Doug Parker is very concerned about the situation at hand and he knows he cannot put the two airlines together because the US Airways pilots will never vote for a new contract if it triggers the Nicolau Award.Junebug said: "As for USAPA, I understand that their money situation is becoming quite dire and they have resorted to begging. Cards are great, but you need money to make it all work."USA320Pilot responds: Wrong again. It does not take a lot of money to operate via the Internet or by word-of-mouth. And, when you and others are accessed to help fund USAPA next quarter the USAPA treasury will grow.
Moreover, many successful independent unions have started with nothing but debt. By contrast, USAPA is operating in the black and anticipated dues flow will more than cover our financial needs. Remember, we will not have an enormous bureaucracy in Washington, D.C. to support.
According to USAPA, "We have enough to do the initial work to get to a representational dispute determination. We will need more to conduct an effective campaign for election (the last mailing cost over $3K) and also for the legal advice we are getting. We have the premier law firm in this area of law; Lee Seham’s father was the man who represented the APA pilots in 1962 when they left ALPA. That case went to the Supreme Court and APA prevailed. Bottom line, until we win the election and start receiving dues."Junebug said: "And, it is yet to be determined whether or not we are a SBU. I'm sure USAPA knows how badly the east has pissed off their feeders. Enough so that they're willing to do anything to get even - even dillute those 2400 cards. Ask about this scenario during your next 10 hour phone call with USAPA."USA320Pilot responds: You're wrong on two counts here. Yesterday Piedmont Chairman Gordon Daniels addressed the MEC and I know exactly what was said. Daniels is courting the MEC to create flow through support. And, my conversation was not on the phone with Stephen Bradford because we sat next to each other from PIT-SFO & a return, as well as spend 24 hours together in SFO.
As far as the wholly owned pilots voting, they’re not a part of our union’s and they will not have time to be a part of the group before the USAPA vote takes place.Junebug said: "And, its an iron-clad guarantee, that Nicolau will stand along with our respective CBA (LOA93 in your case) should a new union come on property."USA320Pilot comments: The majority of US Airways pilots have no problem with LOA 93 remaining in place because it prevents the Nicolau Award from being implemented. Do the East pilots want a pay raise? Absolutely, and they are going to keep fighting until they get one. However, according to Lee Seham The Nicolau is the product of an ALPA-mandated process and ALPA is bound to defend that process. The ALPA-US Airways MEC cannot prevail in its current litigation because it voluntarily submitted to the ALPA-mandated process. The USAPA, however, is not bound by ALPA's Constitution and cannot be subjected to ALPA’s political control. USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.USA320Pilot concludes: Junebug, it's over for the AWA pilots and if you're not nice you might get stapled to the bottom of the new seniority list.
Now I believe USAPA will be fair to the AWA pilots follwoing union "imposition". According to USAPA, "We have a federally protected right under the RLA to change union representatives. A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness."
By the way, I just received an email from an ALPA EVP who said, "Solutions are available, but they will require compromises on both sides. Otherwise, the award is useless, and both sides lose. There are ways to mitigate the effects of the award; vacating the award is next to, if not impossible. I think both sides need to reasonably assess their options. I think the motivation of ALPA trying to find solutions has been greatly misconstrued. If these attempts fail, those with the most to lose are not other ALPA pilots or ALPA National, it is the US Airways pilots themselves. There has been progress, but the pace has been discouraging - at times."
Junebug, since the AWA MEC has just begun to negotiate a settlement to the Nicolau Award problem, with behind-the-scenes activity, I believe the pace of these negotiations must dramatically pick up or you will be forced to pay USAPA union dues or be placed in bad standing around the first of the year.By the way, when do you start your fourth year of AWA service and how is your advancement going? What's interesting is that the AWA pilots could found (and maybe still can) a way to capture and share some of the seniority list growth, but people like you and your MEC are creating a war you cannot win because the US Airways pilots will control all voting.
Regards,
USA320Pilot"

Munn is all over the map. Initially he supports USAPA, he realizes the Nicolau is flawed.
Then he is fired, and dramatically shifts his entire position. Is Munn owned? Perhaps. And he wonders why he is so detested.
He constantly has been proved to be wrong in his predictions. Yet he expects to be listened to.

 

[Freighterguynow]

What I find interesting is that people on this message cannot dispute the facts or debate without insulting others. It's rather juvenile.
 
"Most people who insult other people are insecure. They think that it will make them feel better if they put someone else down, or they insult the other person to take attention off of themselves. Sometimes people who are angry insult other people because they are not mature enough to think of a different way to handle their anger except to try to start a fight or to try to make the other person feel bad. Mature people can communicate with others without insulting them. Any ideas can be discussed between mature adults without fighting or insulting each other. Mature people can "agree to disagree" and give each other the right to have different opinions. The best way to handle an insult is to ignore it, because what the immature person wants is to make you upset. If you cannot ignore the insult, you can say something like, "Mature people don't have to insult each other to communicate," and walk away. Walking away is always best because the immature person is not going to change and suddenly stop acting immature. If the person insulting you is someone you want to keep as a friend, you should say something like, "That really hurts my feelings when you say something like that. Can we talk without insults?" - this lets the person know that they need to change their behavior, and if they are friends, they will want to change and mature. Other reasons could include boredom, desire to be funny, genuine or learned hatred of another person or culture. Insults could depend on the situation, and it could be a person's way of taking their anger out on one person instead of the thing they are angry at. Insults can also be used as a form of control, whether it is to control another person, to control a conversation. Insulting outbursts are often used by people who are angry that their lives are out of control in other ways."

 

[USA320Pilot]

[SIZE=10pt]In my opinion, the Nicolau Award II is unfair, but that is an opinion and not a fact. After reading ALPA attorney Mike Abram's letter written to every America West and US Airways pilo,t prior to USAPA winning the representation election, I knew if USAPA was elected and attempted to change the Nicolau Award the upstart union would DFR, which is an action I cannot support because it's illegal.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]The day USAPA was elected was the day the SLI argument shifted from a moral to a legal argument.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Why? LOA 96 (Transition Agreement), paragraph 4 states, ""The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline Parties will accept such integrated seniority list, including conditions and restrictions." [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]This section does not state should, could or might, but says will. That's why Judge Wake ruled USAPA was guilty of DFR and Judge Bybee issued his dissent opinion on the "ripeness" argument. In fact, the only legal difference of opinion was that Judge [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Tashima and Graber believe USAPA's DFR violation has not occurred yet, but if USAPA can convince the company to implement a SL other than the Nicolau Award then according to the entire 3-panel Ninth Circuit Court ruling USAPA would be "unquestionably ripe (for) DFR."[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]And, that position holds true today, which is why management through US Airways' Addington II DFR Summary Judgment petition & Motion to Correct and why both management and APA in PA discussions are demanding a M-B 3-way ISL arbitration. However, in it  continuing effort to prevent the West from having a F&E voice at the M-B table, USAPA is committing a judicial estoppel violation due to inconsistent legal positions. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]In the Addington II case Pat Szymanski successfully argued against US Airways' Summary Judgment petition stating a subset of a union (the West pilots) cannot argue seniority or negotiate a contract unless the certified agent permits this action. Szymanski is right and his argument is backed by the RLA. However, in its M-B Injunction petition USAPA has taken the opposite argument by stating that following SCS other than the certified agent can argue seniority.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]In fact, Judge Silver predicted the judicial estoppel violation in her Addington II DFR order when she wrote, "USAPA has succeeded here but it is a Pyrrhic victory. As contemplated by the MOU, in the very near future an election will take place and a new representative will be chosen by all of the post-merger pilots.13 It is almost certain USAPA will lose that election. Once that happens, USAPA will no longer be entitled to participate in the seniority integration proceedings.14 The Court has no doubt that–as is USAPA’s consistent practice–USAPA will change its position when it needs to do so to fit its hard and unyielding view on seniority."[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Why has USAPA attempting to violate the law again? Above all else USAPA is trying to prevent West pilot M-B participation because USAPA wants to introduce a DOH ISL proposal at the M-B table, which virtually staples the entire West SL to the bottom of the USAPA M-B proposal.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]But, USAPA's M-B Injunction position is unsupportable and illegal. Why? "I[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]n the practice of law, judicial estoppel (also known as estoppel by inconsistent positions) is an estoppel which precludes a party [/SIZE]from taking a position in a case which is contrary to a position they have taken in earlier legal proceedings."  
 
[SIZE=10pt]In conclusion, if USAPA agrees to a 3-way M-B ISL arbitration, if held, and does not demand its outlandish GA and UMTA the possibility exists for a mediated settlement next week. If not then I expect the NMB to rule on SCS with APA becoming the pilot's union, Judge Howell to dismiss USAPA's M-B lawsuit, and APA to form 3 MCs so APA a avoid a massive DFR penalty and AAG a large liability claim if the union and company agree to use a SL other than the Nicolau Award II as the US Airways pilot's starting point of the USAPA-APA ISL.     [/SIZE]