2014 Pilot Discussion

[luvthe9]

No worries or desperation here, only optimism and sympathy for those who follow USapians. 😉
You'll figure out sooner or later who is on the "island"
]

Oh yes we will when that next bid comes out, we to have sympathy for those idiots that followed Ferguson and Koontz, have a good night Gilligan.

 

[snapthis]

Oh yes we will when that next bid comes out, we to have sympathy for those idiots that followed Ferguson and Koontz, have a good night Gilligan.

You could not be more wrong but that's the norm for those who are a little slow. Let me help you break down the APA's position:

To be blunt, USAPA's version of events is fiction. USAPA leadership specifically and directly solicited this latest protocol proposal from the Seniority Integration Committee. USAPA's merger counsel was also briefed on the likely content of the protocol document several days before receipt.

Fiction-Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by the narrator.

USAPA's abject failure to communicate these facts erodes the very foundation of trust necessary for any further negotiations

"Rebuilding trust is a key component in successful collaborative negotiations. Holding back or manipulative behaviour will be quickly seen and erode trust in reaching a successful agreement."

It is now apparent to us, just as it was to Judge Silver in the Addington v. USAPA DFR decision, that USAPA is using these tactics, including reneging on its bargain under the MOU and litigating the McCaskill-Bond process in court, with the express goal of delaying the NMB single-carrier finding.

re·nege
go back on a promise, undertaking, or contract.
"the administration had reneged on its election promises"
synonyms: default on, fail to honor, go back on, break, back out of, withdraw from, retreat from, welsh on, backtrack on; break one's word/promise about
"he reneged on his campaign promises"

FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands.....

su·per·flu·ous- otiose, pointless, purposeless, senseless, superfluous, wasted ...


THE BOTTOM LINE:
As FO Roghair stated, APA does not take its duty of fair representation lightly. Contrary to USAPA's assertions otherwise, and at their suggestion, APA has proposed that the West pilots be afforded the opportunity to petition a neutral arbitrator for the right to a separate and independent merger committee in the seniority integration process.

At the CLT meeting, a member of the USAPA Merger Committee briefed those in attendance on why the committee found the prospect of a separate West merger committee acceptable. And, upon hearing APA's proposal, the USAPA secretary-treasurer remarked that this proposal came directly from USAPA. This highlights that the USAPA Merger Committee's blast, dated June 20, 2014, is entirely inconsistent with statements made by USAPA leadership to APA

While APA will be the bargaining representative and will not formally agree to USAPA party status, USAPA may continue as an organization, with a board and national officers, albeit at their own expense.
 
 
Meet your new best friend--------his name is Wilson and you are the castaway. You blew it.

 

[westcoastflyer]

Just a reminder that JCBA negotiations begin tomorrow, July 8th between the APA and American Airlines management.  No mention of USAPA, not a surprise.  So, negotiations will begin with little or no input from more than 5000 US Airways pilots.  Boy, USAPA is really doing a bang-up job for all of us.  All they can do is fight everything, file endless lawsuits, sue everybody they can think of, and delay, delay, delay.  Meanwhile, our next contract begins to be negotiated for us by APA. Single Carrier status can't happen soon enough!

 

[end_of_alpa]

You could not be more wrong but that's the norm for those who are a little slow. Let me help you break down the APA's position:

To be blunt, USAPA's version of events is fiction. USAPA leadership specifically and directly solicited this latest protocol proposal from the Seniority Integration Committee. USAPA's merger counsel was also briefed on the likely content of the protocol document several days before receipt.

Fiction-Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by the narrator.

USAPA's abject failure to communicate these facts erodes the very foundation of trust necessary for any further negotiations

"Rebuilding trust is a key component in successful collaborative negotiations. Holding back or manipulative behaviour will be quickly seen and erode trust in reaching a successful agreement."

It is now apparent to us, just as it was to Judge Silver in the Addington v. USAPA DFR decision, that USAPA is using these tactics, including reneging on its bargain under the MOU and litigating the McCaskill-Bond process in court, with the express goal of delaying the NMB single-carrier finding.

re·nege
go back on a promise, undertaking, or contract.
"the administration had reneged on its election promises"
synonyms: default on, fail to honor, go back on, break, back out of, withdraw from, retreat from, welsh on, backtrack on; break one's word/promise about
"he reneged on his campaign promises"

FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands.....

su·per·flu·ous- otiose, pointless, purposeless, senseless, superfluous, wasted ...


THE BOTTOM LINE:
As FO Roghair stated, APA does not take its duty of fair representation lightly. Contrary to USAPA's assertions otherwise, and at their suggestion, APA has proposed that the West pilots be afforded the opportunity to petition a neutral arbitrator for the right to a separate and independent merger committee in the seniority integration process.

At the CLT meeting, a member of the USAPA Merger Committee briefed those in attendance on why the committee found the prospect of a separate West merger committee acceptable. And, upon hearing APA's proposal, the USAPA secretary-treasurer remarked that this proposal came directly from USAPA. This highlights that the USAPA Merger Committee's blast, dated June 20, 2014, is entirely inconsistent with statements made by USAPA leadership to APA

While APA will be the bargaining representative and will not formally agree to USAPA party status, USAPA may continue as an organization, with a board and national officers, albeit at their own expense.
 
 
Meet your new best friend--------his name is Wilson and you are the castaway. You blew it.

At the CLT meeting was Tom Kubic, member of the Merger Committee.  This was told to me by someone who WAS THERE.  Tom was asked a question as to if it would be problematic for us to have the West have a seat at the table.  Now Tom didn't say they COULD have a seat but HYPOTHETICALLY if they did that he was confident that HE would have no problem defending USAPA's position.  Roghair took what Tom said out of context.
 
Here is what APA IS SAYING contrary to the MOU"
 
"The only other claim before this Court is the APA’s third counterclaim, which raises a pure question of law: whether USAPA will have the right under McCaskill-Bond to continue representing the pre-merger US Airways pilots in the seniority-integration process after the National Mediation Board extinguishes USAPA’s certification as the collective bargaining representative under the Railway Labor Act of the pre-merger US Airways pilots."
 
We KNOW the West pilots LEGALLY DO NOT HAVE A SEAT because of Judge Silvers ruling.  JUDICIAL ESTOPPEL is a legal argument carrying the day from a ruling in Arizona.  Judge Silver DID NOT RULE AND COULD NOT ORDER USAPA to quit advocating for their LEGAL rights under paragraph 10 of the MOU.  The APA has NO LEGAL GROUND TO STAND ON.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Just a reminder that JCBA negotiations begin tomorrow, July 8th between the APA and American Airlines management.  No mention of USAPA, not a surprise.  So, negotiations will begin with little or no input from more than 5000 US Airways pilots.  Boy, USAPA is really doing a bang-up job for all of us.  All they can do is fight everything, file endless lawsuits, sue everybody they can think of, and delay, delay, delay.  Meanwhile, our next contract begins to be negotiated for us by APA. Single Carrier status can't happen soon enough!

Sounds like......AOL!  Endless LOSING lawsuits.
 
Meanwhile East pilots and third listers continue to move quickly up the attrition list.

 

[snapthis]

Jamie, your obsession with  West pilots getting a seat at the table is very telling. Your fear of having a third party such as arbitrator is very telling.
The APA's update is very telling.
 
Nobody trusts USAPA/Usapians

 

[westcoastflyer]

Sounds like......AOL!  Endless LOSING lawsuits.
 
Meanwhile East pilots and third listers continue to move quickly up the attrition list.

I guess getting a much better contract, with input from ALL of us, is not really that important to most pilots here.  As long as some more east guys move up the ladder,  improving pay, scheduling, and working conditions for the foreseeable future don't really matter much.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I guess getting a much better contract, with input from ALL of us, is not really that important to most pilots here.  As long as some more east guys move up the ladder,  improving pay, scheduling, and working conditions for the foreseeable future don't really matter much.

EXACTLY!

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I guess getting a much better contract, with input from ALL of us, is not really that important to most pilots here.  As long as some more east guys move up the ladder,  improving pay, scheduling, and working conditions for the foreseeable future don't really matter much.

So the flip of that is that APA has chosen not to honor the federal statutory requirements of McCaskill-Bond and are being challenged on it and in a child like punitive response, they are incing out future members from input on a JCBA. So your suggestion is to roll over so you might move up the ladder and there is no evidence that the APA still will not drive the boat on contract negotiations.

As 9/11 has proven, working conditions can gome and go but seniority if forever.

Don't be so quick to point the finger that someone else might be looking out for themselves when you so clearly are. False sanctimony is even more BS that the real thing.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Jamie, your obsession with  West pilots getting a seat at the table is very telling. Your fear of having a third party such as arbitrator is very telling.
The APA's update is very telling.
 
Nobody trusts USAPA/Usapians

You mean my PERSISTENCE that the West pilot CLASS has NO LEGAL RIGHT under McCaskill-Bond of getting a seat at the table because A FEDERAL COURT ALREADY DECIDED the issue is EXTREMELY TELLING.

The APA update keep giving USAPA more information we get to use in court.

Nobody trusts APA and AOL.

 

[end_of_alpa]

So the flip of that is that APA has chosen not to honor the federal statutory requirements of McCaskill-Bond and are being challenged on it and in a child like punitive response, they are incing out future members from input on a JCBA. So your suggestion is to roll over so you might move up the ladder and there is no evidence that the APA still will not drive the boat on contract negotiations.As 9/11 has proven, working conditions can gome and go but seniority if forever.Don't be so quick to point the finger that someone else might be looking out for themselves when you so clearly are. False sanctimony is even more BS that the real thing.

EXACTLY!

 

[snapthis]

    


 What was true years ago is true now. A leopard can't change it's spots.
 
The transcripts show a pattern of evasive behavior of USAPA VP, Stephen Bradford. 
 
Don Addington, et al. v. US Airline Pilots Association, et al.
Stephen Bradford March 19, 2009
 
A. There was a pilot who formed a website
that was called AAAPilots4fairness.com and people
signed up and used that website and out of that grew
a committee.
Q. What period of time are you talking about
here?
A. June, July.
Q. Of '07?
A. Yes.
Q. And the committee -- were you a member of
the committee?
A. No. I mean, I -- yes, I guess we called
it a committee and it related to that board because
that's where the board --
Q. Well --
A. That was the first web board that existed
that we could congregate on.
 
 
USAPAWATCH saw it as well...
 
 
USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts, and procedural history with frequent recourse to the 'contradiction or confusion...produced by a medley of judicial phrases severed from their environment.  – The Honorable Judge Neil V. Wake
 
 
 
The following text reveals the context of the legal opinion from respected labor attorney Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan. Mr. Katzenbach’s firm was interviewed in May 2007 in the early stages of Mr. Bradford’s expedition to form a new organization, an organization with the singular goal of destroying the careers of the former America West pilots. Although the letter was marked confidential, in the fanaticism to gain support of the East pilots, this material was published on a public Web site thus piercing the normally ironclad veil of attorney/client privilege. As a result of this all too common recklessness and oversight within USAPA’s founding leadership, this letter was admitted into evidence and became an important component of the Addington trial and subsequent verdict. In the discussion, Mr. Katzenbach warned Mr. Bradford by stating,
 
[SIZE=14pt]...the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress [t]he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award.  Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud[/SIZE]
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[SIZE=14pt]Oh, the irony[/SIZE]
 
 
The PHL domicile meeting was held on June 17, 2014 in the PHL Airport Marriott. This meeting location was selected in order to promote a more convenient location so more pilots could attend. Unfortunately, pilot participation was very disappointing, even though the meeting was widely publicized.


The meeting itself was very informative and included many guest speakers who took the time to keep our pilots informed and up to speed on critical issues. Please make an effort to attend future meetings in order to remain as up to date as possible on all of the issues that affect your careers.


3% Issue


Grievance Committee member John Karras gave an update on the rationale behind the dismissal of our court case in Western Pennsylvania, which sought to vacate the Arbitration Award denying annual 3% raises to the pilots commencing on May 1, 2010. It should be noted that your PHL reps have always believed this was a very difficult case and we considered it a long shot at best. It is important to understand, in the absence of fraud and a few other rare situations, Federal Courts will allow an Arbitrator’s award to stand as binding on the parties even if an arbitrator “just got it wrong.”
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh, the irony
 
 

 

[snapthis]

You mean my PERSISTENCE that the West pilot CLASS has NO LEGAL RIGHT under McCaskill-Bond of getting a seat at the table because A FEDERAL COURT ALREADY DECIDED the issue is EXTREMELY TELLING.
The APA update keep giving USAPA more information we get to use in court.
Nobody trusts APA and AOL.

The West class does have legal rights and USAPA will not be permitted to speak for us during negotiations.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

The West class does have legal rights and USAPA will not be permitted to speak for us during negotiations.

It might be the best thing if the West are eventually given seperate class status after SCS, then the East can move to be given class status and each can act soloely on the behalf of their own class. No hollow DFR threats and at the end of the day, the courts are going to find that US Airways pilots do have standing as they did in the case of Midwest Express flight attendants. In fact the courts found their independant class status was enhanced after the SCS finding vis a vis the plain langugage of the McCaskill-Bond Statute.

Of course that will be the eventual destination but that path encompasses about another 2-3 years of court process and only benefit any parties that have attrition.

Hey maybe that is what the APA wants!

 

[snapthis]

It might be the best thing if the West are eventually given seperate class status after SCS, then the East can move to be given class status and each can act soloely on the behalf of their own class. No hollow DFR threats and at the end of the day, the courts are going to find that US Airways pilots do have standing as they did in the case of Midwest Express flight attendants. In fact the courts found their independant class status was enhanced after the SCS finding vis a vis the plain langugage of the McCaskill-Bond Statute.Of course that will be the eventual destination but that path encompasses about another 2-3 years of court process and only benefit any parties that have attrition.Hey maybe that is what the APA wants!

"FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands, including:

Obligating APA to pay post-single carrier USAPA bills, including costs of its current headquarters
Maintaining USAPA's independent operation authority throughout the JCBA and SLI process
Paying for ongoing litigation expenses in Addington and any subsequent DFR cases
Recognizing USAPA as a party to the protocol agreement even after USAPA ceases to be the certified bargaining representative (contrary to its own position in the Addington litigation, the judge's ruling in that case and the specific language of the MOU)
These are not commitments APA is willing to entertain and are what brought seniority protocol negotiations to a halt."

"While APA will be the bargaining representative and will not formally agree to USAPA party status, USAPA may continue as an organization, with a board and national officers, albeit at their own expense."

Lawsuits will be self-funded. No more dues money will be available, therefore, I wish them luck in their fundraising endeavours.