2014 Pilot Discussion
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luvthe9
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This week, we got our answer from the APA on how they plan to conduct the SLI negotiations going into the future. We have seen this all before. As with Jerry Glass where each agreement was worse than the one before. We are also aware of the tactics trying to divide and conquer that won't work if we recognize the tactics. So where do we go from here?
The first thing you have to remember about all of this is that the APA is deathly afraid of going into McCaskill-Bond and they have done everything possible to keep from going there. The latest is this "message" to the US Airways pilots to tell us that USAPA is lying and they are telling the truth. Right. They claim that they had agreement that we would NOT go into McCaskill-Bond. There was never any agreement There was some ambiguous language on the time line in the MOU but never an agreement that would give up our rights to an arbitrated settlement via McCaskill-Bond.
The second large lie is that we agreed to a west representation on the seniority integration board. That would be paramount to handing over all we have fought for these 8 years and give a group that has special interest a seat at the table they have no legal right to. Notice there is no call by the APA to have the TWA pilots at that table!
The third of a long list of lies is that Judge Silver's remarks are NOT dicta but is the rule of law. That one statement more than any other should indicate just how far they are willing to go to lie. Ask any lawyer, they will explain that dicta is opinion and nothing but an opinion. There is no ruling based on opinion. She could have said in her dicta that USAPA is the greatest union in history and that President Obama is the greatest President in history....BUT, it is her opinion not a ruling and hence has nothing to do with SLI or McCaskill-Bond. If you read her decision, everything before the words "It is so ordered" is opinion. Everything after that is her order. Leonidas needs money. The APA is trying to add fear and confusion.
The whole purpose of that letter was to sway opinion and scare US Airways pilots and especially our officers into giving up our protections under McCaskill-Bond. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing this letter did was solidify my belief that they are terrified to go to M-B arbitration.
I found their Protocol Proposal interesting from several stand points. The first is that they really never had any intention of negotiating with us for a fair and equitable SLI. All the handshaking and congratulations on forming a "blended family" between the US Airways Pilots and the American Pilots was a ruse. The truth is, that underlying all the smiles and handshakes and promises lies the greedy, self-interested, arrogant pilot group they have always been. The nic-name "Sky Nazis" was well earned throughout their history.
The second thing I learned is that their Merger Committee are devious liars. In their 'Update' to their pilots issued at the same time they sent us their latest Protocol Proposal, they claimed they had met all of our concerns while really meeting none of them. That tells me several things. One, they are afraid to tell their pilot group the truth because of the ramifications they may suffer if their line pilots know the truth and two, that they believe by going to the pilots with a lie, they can sway them before the truth comes out! They are actually more dangerous to their own pilots than to us. This latest attempt to publicly sway US Airways pilots is aimed at our weakest pilots who believe we need to bend over.
I have a suggestion that I don't believe the APA will accept. Since the Protocol Proposals are no longer secret thanks to the APA, we should publicly propose that each side get the opportunity to write a letter to the opposing pilot group explaining its position vi's a vi's, McCaskill-Bond. The Pilots from USAPA should be able to present their arguments in print for the American Line-Pilot to read and visa-versa from the APA. If the APA is truly interested in the truth, they will jump at the opportunity to present their arguments to the US Airways Line-Pilots.
What more public way can there be for everyone to see where each of us stands and who is telling the truth and who is not. Do I believe they will go for it? No. They are showing a devious side we had hoped to avoid. But now that they have, the gloves need to come off here. When you fight someone much bigger, it is wise to fight with everything you have or you will get beaten. Gary Hummel should pull no punches in explaining what has happened in an open letter. Stop all SLI Negotiations. At this point, they are pointless until they agree to M-B. Next, continue to pursue the law suit we have in Federal Court for McCaskill Bond. Before he left office, former USAPA President Mike Cleary's put together the best legal team in the industry. Let them loose!
American pilots have shown in the past they have no respect for other company's pilots or the pilot profession in general. They are the sole reason for McCaskill-Bond. There can only be one reason they are so afraid of an SLI based on M-B and that is because they have a plan that would destroy the careers of every US Airways pilot - east or west. M-B would stop that plan from becoming reality. Watch what they do, not what they say. No M-B puts them in charge of our lives and seniority. They claim we can sue for DFR if they aren't fair. Well, we have seen how that goes.
As an example of what I mean. I was recently told by a BPR Member that during one of the first meetings between our side and the APA, APA Negotiating Committee member Drew Engelke pointedly told our people that we should be thankful for what American did for us, that we worked for a 'low-life' company and that we should be 'grateful' for anything they [APA] feel compelled to give us. That is how they think and that is what they will do.
One other item I found interesting in all of this is the willingness of the APA to join forces with management to fight another union. Explaining to them the ramifications of this for the future of a merged pilot group seems to have no effect on their leaders. As sure as the sun coming up tomorrow, there will be a time when Parker and company resort to old habits of balancing the books on the backs of their employees. That may come sooner than later looking at the situation in the world. At that point, the APA will ask it's members, new and old to stand together. It should be explained now that if they attempt to take our seniority away from us, there can NEVER be unity and they will be the biggest losers and the company wins.
At the present time, the company, the Army of Leonidas and the APA are using each other for their gain. The company needs a placid employee group to finish this merger but is planting the seeds of future disunity. Leonidas is hoping for a 'hail Mary' pass through intimidation to get the APA to include them at the table. The American pilots need the company to steal our seniority. As soon as this merger is far enough along, look out. The real purpose of all this will rear it's ugly head. I know the American pilots believe that Parker is now playing in the 'big league,' and wouldn't dare cross them, as I have heard repeatedly from them, but they are delusional and have short memories. They almost bankrupt themselves when they tried a small work stoppage years ago and the benign management of that time went into court and won a huge settlement against them. Only by giving up a substantial amount of money did they save themselves from total ruin. Now, they have a much stronger, much more determined management group to contend with and it is they that is now playing in the 'big league.'
Of course the APA wants to let the West have a seat. They can have all the seats they want if they are placed junior to all the American pilots. It would be just a matter of time before the APA would turn on them, but it will be too late if we give up the M-B protections.
If you feel surrounded on all sides by 'enemies' and that we are doomed, fear not. We have a great deal of case law on our side. On the west, we have seen the results of standing for our rights. The Nic is dead no matter what Chip Munn and the Army of Leonidas tell their people to try to rally the troops for more donations. With the company, we have a contract and an MOU that helps secure our rights. On the American front, we have McCaskill-Bond. It's a shame we are forced into this situation, but we have been told over and over we can't win only to see that we have won and will continue to win if we stand firm and united. The company can divide us from the west and the APA, but unless we let them they cannot divide this pilot group.
One more item and this is for the so called 'third listers.' What happens in the fights between the Company, the Army of Leonidas and the APA and USAPA concern you as much as it concerns those of us that have been here for a long time. In any merger, the past mergers are used as a template to shape future mergers. If you are treated unfairly in this merger because the west can or the APA can, it will follow you for the rest of your career. This fight is also about your future. You need to stay informed through USAPA update, attend union meetings or even through web sites like this and voice your opinions when you think it's necessary. At some point in the future, you may be asked to stand up for yourself, so you had better know the facts to make intelligent decisions.
There is one thing that we should all be aware of and that is time. We have it on our side. The APA claims that the real reason they want us to give up our protections on M-B is that we are delaying joint contract negotiations. We know from history that Parker will drag out those negotiations for years. That argument is a ruse designed to scare us. In fact, if we become the APA, we will have zero input into those negotiations. Instead, the longer this merger takes the more we grow and the more we move up.
The APA has shown it's willingness to "TWA" all of us for no other reason than greed based on their belief that 'they saved us' and are entitled to our jobs because we are not legacy American Pilots. They feel we bring nothing to this merger and we are just lucky to have joined their illustrious group. You will also never be treated as an equal unless we win this fight.
Chip Munn refers to anyone that stands up for themselves as "Hard Liners." So be it. If not bending over and grabbing our ankles when someone tells us to means we are hard-liners, I accept the title with honor. We didn't start this fight and it's a shame that we are at this point, but we are not TWA and we were not the ones in bankruptcy....American was. Keep that in mind when you read their reasons for this fight. We have beaten greater odds than this before and will again.
The first thing you have to remember about all of this is that the APA is deathly afraid of going into McCaskill-Bond and they have done everything possible to keep from going there. The latest is this "message" to the US Airways pilots to tell us that USAPA is lying and they are telling the truth. Right. They claim that they had agreement that we would NOT go into McCaskill-Bond. There was never any agreement There was some ambiguous language on the time line in the MOU but never an agreement that would give up our rights to an arbitrated settlement via McCaskill-Bond.
The second large lie is that we agreed to a west representation on the seniority integration board. That would be paramount to handing over all we have fought for these 8 years and give a group that has special interest a seat at the table they have no legal right to. Notice there is no call by the APA to have the TWA pilots at that table!
The third of a long list of lies is that Judge Silver's remarks are NOT dicta but is the rule of law. That one statement more than any other should indicate just how far they are willing to go to lie. Ask any lawyer, they will explain that dicta is opinion and nothing but an opinion. There is no ruling based on opinion. She could have said in her dicta that USAPA is the greatest union in history and that President Obama is the greatest President in history....BUT, it is her opinion not a ruling and hence has nothing to do with SLI or McCaskill-Bond. If you read her decision, everything before the words "It is so ordered" is opinion. Everything after that is her order. Leonidas needs money. The APA is trying to add fear and confusion.
The whole purpose of that letter was to sway opinion and scare US Airways pilots and especially our officers into giving up our protections under McCaskill-Bond. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing this letter did was solidify my belief that they are terrified to go to M-B arbitration.
I found their Protocol Proposal interesting from several stand points. The first is that they really never had any intention of negotiating with us for a fair and equitable SLI. All the handshaking and congratulations on forming a "blended family" between the US Airways Pilots and the American Pilots was a ruse. The truth is, that underlying all the smiles and handshakes and promises lies the greedy, self-interested, arrogant pilot group they have always been. The nic-name "Sky Nazis" was well earned throughout their history.
The second thing I learned is that their Merger Committee are devious liars. In their 'Update' to their pilots issued at the same time they sent us their latest Protocol Proposal, they claimed they had met all of our concerns while really meeting none of them. That tells me several things. One, they are afraid to tell their pilot group the truth because of the ramifications they may suffer if their line pilots know the truth and two, that they believe by going to the pilots with a lie, they can sway them before the truth comes out! They are actually more dangerous to their own pilots than to us. This latest attempt to publicly sway US Airways pilots is aimed at our weakest pilots who believe we need to bend over.
I have a suggestion that I don't believe the APA will accept. Since the Protocol Proposals are no longer secret thanks to the APA, we should publicly propose that each side get the opportunity to write a letter to the opposing pilot group explaining its position vi's a vi's, McCaskill-Bond. The Pilots from USAPA should be able to present their arguments in print for the American Line-Pilot to read and visa-versa from the APA. If the APA is truly interested in the truth, they will jump at the opportunity to present their arguments to the US Airways Line-Pilots.
What more public way can there be for everyone to see where each of us stands and who is telling the truth and who is not. Do I believe they will go for it? No. They are showing a devious side we had hoped to avoid. But now that they have, the gloves need to come off here. When you fight someone much bigger, it is wise to fight with everything you have or you will get beaten. Gary Hummel should pull no punches in explaining what has happened in an open letter. Stop all SLI Negotiations. At this point, they are pointless until they agree to M-B. Next, continue to pursue the law suit we have in Federal Court for McCaskill Bond. Before he left office, former USAPA President Mike Cleary's put together the best legal team in the industry. Let them loose!
American pilots have shown in the past they have no respect for other company's pilots or the pilot profession in general. They are the sole reason for McCaskill-Bond. There can only be one reason they are so afraid of an SLI based on M-B and that is because they have a plan that would destroy the careers of every US Airways pilot - east or west. M-B would stop that plan from becoming reality. Watch what they do, not what they say. No M-B puts them in charge of our lives and seniority. They claim we can sue for DFR if they aren't fair. Well, we have seen how that goes.
As an example of what I mean. I was recently told by a BPR Member that during one of the first meetings between our side and the APA, APA Negotiating Committee member Drew Engelke pointedly told our people that we should be thankful for what American did for us, that we worked for a 'low-life' company and that we should be 'grateful' for anything they [APA] feel compelled to give us. That is how they think and that is what they will do.
One other item I found interesting in all of this is the willingness of the APA to join forces with management to fight another union. Explaining to them the ramifications of this for the future of a merged pilot group seems to have no effect on their leaders. As sure as the sun coming up tomorrow, there will be a time when Parker and company resort to old habits of balancing the books on the backs of their employees. That may come sooner than later looking at the situation in the world. At that point, the APA will ask it's members, new and old to stand together. It should be explained now that if they attempt to take our seniority away from us, there can NEVER be unity and they will be the biggest losers and the company wins.
At the present time, the company, the Army of Leonidas and the APA are using each other for their gain. The company needs a placid employee group to finish this merger but is planting the seeds of future disunity. Leonidas is hoping for a 'hail Mary' pass through intimidation to get the APA to include them at the table. The American pilots need the company to steal our seniority. As soon as this merger is far enough along, look out. The real purpose of all this will rear it's ugly head. I know the American pilots believe that Parker is now playing in the 'big league,' and wouldn't dare cross them, as I have heard repeatedly from them, but they are delusional and have short memories. They almost bankrupt themselves when they tried a small work stoppage years ago and the benign management of that time went into court and won a huge settlement against them. Only by giving up a substantial amount of money did they save themselves from total ruin. Now, they have a much stronger, much more determined management group to contend with and it is they that is now playing in the 'big league.'
Of course the APA wants to let the West have a seat. They can have all the seats they want if they are placed junior to all the American pilots. It would be just a matter of time before the APA would turn on them, but it will be too late if we give up the M-B protections.
If you feel surrounded on all sides by 'enemies' and that we are doomed, fear not. We have a great deal of case law on our side. On the west, we have seen the results of standing for our rights. The Nic is dead no matter what Chip Munn and the Army of Leonidas tell their people to try to rally the troops for more donations. With the company, we have a contract and an MOU that helps secure our rights. On the American front, we have McCaskill-Bond. It's a shame we are forced into this situation, but we have been told over and over we can't win only to see that we have won and will continue to win if we stand firm and united. The company can divide us from the west and the APA, but unless we let them they cannot divide this pilot group.
One more item and this is for the so called 'third listers.' What happens in the fights between the Company, the Army of Leonidas and the APA and USAPA concern you as much as it concerns those of us that have been here for a long time. In any merger, the past mergers are used as a template to shape future mergers. If you are treated unfairly in this merger because the west can or the APA can, it will follow you for the rest of your career. This fight is also about your future. You need to stay informed through USAPA update, attend union meetings or even through web sites like this and voice your opinions when you think it's necessary. At some point in the future, you may be asked to stand up for yourself, so you had better know the facts to make intelligent decisions.
There is one thing that we should all be aware of and that is time. We have it on our side. The APA claims that the real reason they want us to give up our protections on M-B is that we are delaying joint contract negotiations. We know from history that Parker will drag out those negotiations for years. That argument is a ruse designed to scare us. In fact, if we become the APA, we will have zero input into those negotiations. Instead, the longer this merger takes the more we grow and the more we move up.
The APA has shown it's willingness to "TWA" all of us for no other reason than greed based on their belief that 'they saved us' and are entitled to our jobs because we are not legacy American Pilots. They feel we bring nothing to this merger and we are just lucky to have joined their illustrious group. You will also never be treated as an equal unless we win this fight.
Chip Munn refers to anyone that stands up for themselves as "Hard Liners." So be it. If not bending over and grabbing our ankles when someone tells us to means we are hard-liners, I accept the title with honor. We didn't start this fight and it's a shame that we are at this point, but we are not TWA and we were not the ones in bankruptcy....American was. Keep that in mind when you read their reasons for this fight. We have beaten greater odds than this before and will again.
traderjake
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luvthe9 said:
Sure they are.
No need to read any further.
APA is following the MOU and waiting for a JCBA and SCS.
Mach85ER said:
My oh my. How touchy the poor precious boy is indeed! Here's a clue for ya' kid: that term's been prevalent in the industry since at least my first airline/Eastern, before Lorenzo put his filthy shoes fully on it, and if you don't like it, well...too bad. None of us here made that up.
BTW: Your "proudly" "Mach85ER" just means you're merely some general aviation/commercial little puzzy that's never flown, or will ever at Mach plus. "You write this or some other dick?" Speaking of that: Why would even the limpest of dicks brag about "Mach85"...? Just curious here...? You must realize that many of us find "Mach85" entirely laughable...? 🙂
Take your pathetic little punk-azzed attitude somewhere else, or otherwise, just grow up....Or you could call us all when you've got more "Mach" to offer...?...Maybe even like even ONE times mach, versus "85"? 🙂
Why would even the limpest of dicks brag about "Mach85"...? Just curious here...? You must realize that many of us find "Mach85" entirely laughable...? 🙂
Oops! From the immediate minus vote: Methinks I've mightily offended the "mommy-bought-me-my-ticket-so-I-can-imagine-myself-a "pilot" crowd....my bad. No worries kiddies...You can all go bragging about "Mach85" and being pretended "Pilots" so long as it amuses you and impresses your girlfriends. 😉
Oops! From the immediate minus vote: Methinks I've mightily offended the "mommy-bought-me-my-ticket-so-I-can-imagine-myself-a "pilot" crowd....my bad. No worries kiddies...You can all go bragging about "Mach85" and being pretended "Pilots" so long as it amuses you and impresses your girlfriends. 😉
snapthis
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This is closer.luvthe9 said:
Stand Or Fall Lyrics
"Crying parents tell their children
if you survive don't do as we did
A son exclaims there'll be nothing to do to
Her daughter says she'll be dead with you
While foreign affairs are screwing us rotten
Line morale has hit rock bottom
Dying embers stand forgotten
Talks of peace were being trodden
Stand or fall
state your peace tonight
Stand or fall
Let's state it tonight"
Europe faces a similar dilemma as do we..you need to look out for an enemy not a scapegoat.
http://touch.dailymotion.com/video/x186qm6_the-fixx-stand-or-fall_music
EastUS1 said:
P.S. I didn't mean to be overtly rude, but I can only pretend to be at all "respectful" to a reasonably limited degree....We all have our personal limitations....MACH
85 ain't mine, and I'd love to hear just how and why "MACH85" should "impress" anyone...? Seems to me that that punk's nonsense epitomizes the whole "sky nazi" thing...while evidencing not the slightest semblance of "substance" himself. 🙂
Have at it mighty "MACH"...Explain your sad self...? 😉
snapthis said:
"look out for an enemy" snap? Thanks for the laughs. Assume we all have at least 2 seconds to spare, so you can tell us all about just what you know about ever personally encountering any "enemy"...? 😉
Yeah, yeah, I know: "This is sparta!", and "you'se" are all mighty "knights", "spartans" and "dire wolves"....Pardon me while I laugh myself to hopeful sleep. 🙂
In fairness?...I truly wish I had "you'se" mighty "spartans" naive innocence. You must sleep well, given that the only "enemies" "you'se" have ever encountered are merely creatures of Fantasyland...Your notions of "All out war" only amount to this sorry little seniority squabble, and you've neither received nor done direct harm to anyone. Enjoy your "soldier" T-shirts.....and all of your childish "spartan" fantasies...."you'se" are just lucky that all such can forever remain fantasies....your best "battle"tested-"knights" want NO part of the real world in actual war...trust me on at least that much....
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