2014 maintenance talks

[MetalMover]

 
Now that they seem to heading in that direction, some "leaders" are advocating UPS rates which would mean a 40% jump. That's the type of rhetoric that creates a long drawn out negotiations and that has to be concern.

I don't recall any leaders shooting for UPS wages at the cost of thousands of AMT jobs. If I am wrong, please provide proof of statements supporting this claim.
I do recall Bob Owens saying we should get UPS wages because we all do the same work. I do not ever remember him saying we should lose thousands and thousands of mechanics to get there.

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

AA will willingly give you WN's rates as long as you take their whole CBA and not cherry pick.
 
WN has about the same amount of planes as AA and no where near the amount of mechanics.
 
So you if you arent in the top 3,000 say goodbye.

 
Since the majority of us are over 55 looks like it wont be long before the minority get a recall to a job that pays good money. Lets do it I can always go work for another airline, NYC transit, sanitation, car dealership and make what I'm making now. So hand out the WARN letters be back in a few years....

 

[MetalMover]

 
Since the majority of us are over 55 looks like it wont be long before the minority get a recall to a job that pays good money. Lets do it I can always go work for another airline, NYC transit, sanitation, car dealership and make what I'm making now. So hand out the WARN letters be back in a few years....

Remember the TWU slogan..."Half a loaf is better than no loaf"

 

[Vortilon]

AA will willingly give you WN's rates as long as you take their whole CBA and not cherry pick.
 
WN has about the same amount of planes as AA and no where near the amount of mechanics.
 
So you if you arent in the top 3,000 say goodbye.

 
 
3000, now I would like to see them try that.  There isn't enough overhaul capacity to handle AA's needs.  Those third party maintenance vendors are maxed out as it is.  On top of that, those same 3rd party mx vendors are unable to attract new talent. AA can't even attract new talent, and when they do - the talent leaves as fast as they can. That dog ain't gonna hunt.  If AA was gonna lay off 3000, it would have been done by now.  History has also shown us, that when we accept less to "save jobs" - the jobs end up going away anyway.  So using your tactics - is a proven loser.

 

[Bob Owens]

AA will willingly give you WN's rates as long as you take their whole CBA and not cherry pick.
 
WN has about the same amount of planes as AA and no where near the amount of mechanics.
 
So you if you arent in the top 3,000 say goodbye.

 
What are you basing that claim on? Do you have any real knowledge of the Maintenance operation or are you simply shooting from the hip?
 
With the FAA keeping an extra close eye on the operation to ensure they continue to abide by IAW I don't see them laying off too many mechanics, even after joint agreements are made. UAL , WN and DL didn't lay off any mechanics with their mergers. 
 
We have over 3000 mechanics at AA on just the line alone. How many does US have? Our contracts don't drive headcount, our operations do. Our contracts aren't restricting the outsourcing, capacity is. 

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't recall any leaders shooting for UPS wages at the cost of thousands of AMT jobs. If I am wrong, please provide proof of statements supporting this claim.
I do recall Bob Owens saying we should get UPS wages because we all do the same work. I do not ever remember him saying we should lose thousands and thousands of mechanics to get there.

He has to make things up because the facts do not support his arguments. 
 
He and NYer keep using the fact that UPS outsources most of their OH and doesn't have a big maintenance operation, they ignore the fact that UPS was always that way. They never had a big maintenance operation even when we all made the same. UPS doesn't fly people, they have no interiors to maintain, that means there is much less work to do on those planes. Same with WN, they never did much OH in house. They came into this industry after the legacies already had huge maintenance operations and due to their singular fleet type were able to get great rates from MRO's , rates the MROs would not give to competitors like AA, Delta and United. AA being last to engage in large scale outsourcing would be paying more than anyone, they admitted this in negotiations. As they said it, they "expected to pay a premium " especially on Narrow Body OH due to the limited capacity. 
 
So I supose if we got UPS payrates, AND AA were to dump all their narrow body aircraft then there may only be 3000 of us left, but all those narrow bodies would end up flying for some other carrier and there would be plenty of jobs to keep our guys busy till they get recalled. 

 

[MetalMover]

He has to make things up because the facts do not support his arguments. 
 
He and NYer keep using the fact that UPS outsources most of their OH and doesn't have a big maintenance operation, they ignore the fact that UPS was always that way. They never had a big maintenance operation even when we all made the same. UPS doesn't fly people, they have no interiors to maintain, that means there is much less work to do on those planes. Same with WN, they never did much OH in house. They came into this industry after the legacies already had huge maintenance operations and due to their singular fleet type were able to get great rates from MRO's , rates the MROs would not give to competitors like AA, Delta and United. AA being last to engage in large scale outsourcing would be paying more than anyone, they admitted this in negotiations. As they said it, they "expected to pay a premium " especially on Narrow Body OH due to the limited capacity. 
 
So I supose if we got UPS payrates, AND AA were to dump all their narrow body aircraft then there may only be 3000 of us left, but all those narrow bodies would end up flying for some other carrier and there would be plenty of jobs to keep our guys busy till they get recalled. 

They like selective comparisons when it suits there arguments.

 

[Bob Owens]

They like selective comparisons when it suits there arguments.

But then cry about it when anyone leaves anything the company thinks is important out. 

 

[MetalMover]

But then cry about it when anyone leaves anything the company thinks is important out. 

hmmm. typical TWU supporter types.

 

[700UW]

He has to make things up because the facts do not support his arguments. 
 

The only one lying is you Bob:
 

Average In House Maintenance Employees per Aircraft: 2013

AA 18.2
US AIR 11.9
Delta 11.2
United 9.6

Southwest and Jetblue 3.4 (Lowest in the entire industry)

http://web.mit.edu/a...er Aircraft.htm

Data Source:  US DOT Form 41 via BTS, Schedule P10 & T2.
 

 
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/57325-twu-and-iam-representation-alliance-vote/page-120#entry1124035
 
You do realize that WN has almost 700 planes and only does four lines of check?
 
From WN's Annual Report:
 

At December 31, 2013, the Company had 44,831 active fulltime equivalent Employees, consisting of 19,003 flight, 2,689 maintenance, 15,464 ground, Customer, and fleet service, and 7,675 management, finance, marketing, and clerical personnel (associated with non-operational departments). Approximately 83 percent of these Employees were represented by labor unions.
 

 
From the AA/US 10K:
 

As of December 31, 2012, US Airways employed approximately 31,200 active full-time equivalent employees, including approximately 4,000 pilots, 7,000 flight attendants, 3,200 maintenance personnel, 5,400 fleet service personnel, 6,100 passenger service personnel and 5,500 personnel in administrative and various other job categories. In addition, our express subsidiaries, Piedmont and PSA, employed approximately 5,300 active full-time equivalent employees, including approximately 800 pilots, 400 flight attendants, 400 maintenance personnel, 2,500 passenger service personnel and 1,200 personnel in administrative and various other job categories.
 

 
 
PMUS has about the fleet size of about half of WN and has more maintenance personnel.
 
PMAA has about what 11,000 Maintenance personnel for around 630 planes.
 
So the combined AA and US has over 13,000 maintenance personnel for around 1000 planes.
 
WN has about 2,700 maintenance personnel for about 680 planes.
 
Do the math, if you took WN's CBA if you arent in the top say 4,000 you wont have a job.
 
So you will see about 10,000 jobs lost.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.

 

[MetalMover]

The only one lying is you Bob:
 
 
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/57325-twu-and-iam-representation-alliance-vote/page-120#entry1124035
 
You do realize that WN has almost 700 planes and only does four lines of check?
 
From WN's Annual Report:
 
 
From the AA/US 10K:
 
 
 
PMUS has about the fleet size of about half of WN and has more maintenance personnel.
 
PMAA has about what 11,000 Maintenance personnel for around 630 planes.
 
So the combined AA and US has over 13,000 maintenance personnel for around 1000 planes.
 
WN has about 2,700 maintenance personnel for about 680 planes.
 
Do the math, if you took WN's CBA if you arent in the top say 4,000 you wont have a job.
 
So you will see about 10,000 jobs lost.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.

One thing you are forgetting...The numbers you just posted are for airlines who have been out of bankruptcy for years, with the exception of WN.. There were huge cuts as a result of their respective bankruptcies and merger/SOC. Remember DL vacating their maintenance operation in DFW? Their tech ops took in the shorts the worst.
What makes you think AA is going to stay status quo upon SOC?

 

[700UW]

Because the RLA makes them.
 
They cant change anything in the CBA until its negotiated and ratified.
 
They can use only the existing language.
 
The numbers dont lie, you would end up with about 4,000 mechanics and see 10,000 of your brothers and sisters shown the door, but the top 4,000 will get theirs.
 
Refute the numbers.

 

[MetalMover]

Because the RLA makes them.
 
They cant change anything in the CBA until its negotiated and ratified.
 
They can use only the existing language.
 
The numbers dont lie, you would end up with about 4,000 mechanics and see 10,000 of your brothers and sisters shown the door, but the top 4,000 will get theirs.
 
Refute the numbers.

Do you realize that the current TWU contract allows for way more outsourcing that has never been met yet? There are quite a few items that allows the company to shift to outside vendors but chose not to take advantage of.  The new management is aware of what out contract allows . And the coming year is going to see more changes regardless of the SOC, But mainly because of current TWU language.
You know, get it into place before SOC and before any JCBA with the ground workers. 

 

[700UW]

The current CBA on PMAA side does, PMUS is more restrictive.

 

[MetalMover]

The current CBA on PMAA side does, PMUS is more restrictive.

Nothing 4% can't cure.