Yea or nay

[DFWFSC]

Im sure fleet service is going to get the same retirement medical on our contract proposal shortly. Im voting NO....We have guys at my station who were hired in their late 40's or early 50's but only have 10 or 11 years seniority, so they get to retire with everything! Us guys that retire with 30-40yrs seniority wont get anything. Im only 45yrs old but have 24yrs sen.....a few guys i work with are 55 or older but only have 10yrs sen and yet their going to make out great........thats not right at all. Something needs to change with that formula or logic.

 

[The Goose]

Im sure fleet service is going to get the same retirement medical on our contract proposal shortly. Im voting NO....We have guys at my station who were hired in their late 40's or early 50's but only have 10 or 11 years seniority, so they get to retire with everything! Us guys that retire with 30-40yrs seniority wont get anything. Im only 45yrs old but have 24yrs sen.....a few guys i work with are 55 or older but only have 10yrs sen and yet their going to make out great........thats not right at all. Something needs to change with that formula or logic.

Don't forget this "retirement medical" is only bridge insurance 'til one reaches 65 and Medicare takes over. It's only value is if you retire early (before 65), like we all want to do but probably won't be able to.

 

[Bob Owens]

It's been said that this contract is the internationals and the vote of the membership is just for show. Does anyone have a link or insight of the "without further ratification" lawsuit in question?

Legally a union can impose an agreement, but I dont think that will happen this time. I see you have a lead on getting the minutes.
Basically since the International and the company wanted the deal, and none of the locals are party to the agreement the Locals have no say, legally. The contract was ratified by the membership and the court ruled that the subsequent changes were improvements so they didnt require consent from the membership or their elected reps. If you look at the contract it clearly lists all the local reps who were at negotiations as "witnesses". A witness has no legal rights to challenge anything in the agreement or the agreemnt itself. Our structure is defective, we are unique within the TWU, the SWA workers, the NYC Transit workers and other Locals within the TWU actually own their contracts because they dont share contracts with other locals.But thats a discussion for another day.

VOTE NO, this is a concessionary deal. The Company got everything they wanted, a two year extension with no pay increase, expanded use of OSMs, revocation of our retiree health, no pension for the new hires, permanent probation for Crew Chiefs, doubling of the ASM cap(which would probably wipe out Title I at Class II stations and Title II at class III) , "automatically on" for Holidays, the ability to schedule MRT out of existance and more. We didnt get anything fully restored and the monetary compensation adjustments lag inflation. At the end of this deal we will be much worse off than we are now.

 

[The Goose]

Legally a union can impose an agreement, but I dont think that will happen this time. I see you have a lead on getting the minutes.
Basically since the International and the company wanted the deal, and none of the locals are party to the agreement the Locals have no say, legally. The contract was ratified by the membership and the court ruled that the subsequent changes were improvements so they didnt require consent from the membership or their elected reps. If you look at the contract it clearly lists all the local reps who were at negotiations as "witnesses". A witness has no legal rights to challenge anything in the agreement or the agreemnt itself. Our structure is defective, we are unique within the TWU, the SWA workers, the NYC Transit workers and other Locals within the TWU actually own their contracts because they dont share contracts with other locals.But thats a discussion for another day.

VOTE NO, this is a concessionary deal. The Company got everything they wanted, a two year extension with no pay increase, expanded use of OSMs, revocation of our retiree health, no pension for the new hires, permanent probation for Crew Chiefs, doubling of the ASM cap(which would probably wipe out Title I at Class II stations and Title II at class III) , "automatically on" for Holidays, the ability to schedule MRT out of existance and more. We didnt get anything fully restored and the monetary compensation adjustments lag inflation. At the end of this deal we will be much worse off than we are now.

Bob:

What is surprising me is that people I work with who I never dreamed would stand and say"enough is too much" are doing so, and rather emphatically - it is truly amazing and heartening to see a group of what I believed were sheeple growing a set of 'nads and sharpening their teeth!

Like you, I believe if the International chooses to impose its will on the membership again, they will have paved the way for their own demise. We can only hope.

Support your local sheeple - they are holding the keys this time.

 

[Birdman]

Don't forget this "retirement medical" is only bridge insurance 'til one reaches 65 and Medicare takes over. It's only value is if you retire early (before 65), like we all want to do but probably won't be able to.

I've read in the benefits section of jetnet that the prefunded retiree medical becomes your secondary insurance after Medicare age is reached.

 

[The Goose]

I've read in the benefits section of jetnet that the prefunded retiree medical becomes your secondary insurance after Medicare age is reached.

There is much better available out there at this time for much less than this mess will cost us eventually when all is said and swung - hard to say what will be available after 2014 when O'BummerCare kicks in.

Presently, my wife and I care for an aging parent in our home. We have her enrolled (Tulsa area) in the CommunityCare Senior Health Plan which presently cost her $150 or so per month in addition to the assignment of the Medicare Part B benefit to CommunityCare as well. They have never failed her re: her medical needs (hip replacement 6 years ago with $0.00 outlay) and another surgery with no copay either. Prescriptions do get pricey after a while because of the "donut hole phenomena" but that's to be expected.

I can't believe the company would provide anything of real value to its employees and I view any of their "offerings" with great skepticism - so much so that their crap isn't even considered when making any plans for the future, at least in my home.

 

[TWU informer]

I can't believe the company would provide anything of real value to its employees and I view any of their "offerings" with great skepticism - so much so that their crap isn't even considered when making any plans for the future, at least in my home.

Not to worry.

Just as in the past, the TWU will soon be selling you insurance for all benefits negotiated away.

Been that way since 1989 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

As soon as the Line out numbers the overhaul you will really feel it. Best just get what you can before the other sellouts get theirs.
Just read the postings here and tell me how this can be called a "union"?

I got mine brother, see you in the soup line.

 

[Bob Owens]

Legally a union can impose an agreement, but I dont think that will happen this time. I see you have a lead on getting the minutes.
Basically since the International and the company wanted the deal, and none of the locals are party to the agreement the Locals have no say, legally. The contract was ratified by the membership and the court ruled that the subsequent changes were improvements so they didnt require consent from the membership or their elected reps. If you look at the contract it clearly lists all the local reps who were at negotiations as "witnesses". A witness has no legal rights to challenge anything in the agreement or the agreemnt itself. Our structure is defective, we are unique within the TWU, the SWA workers, the NYC Transit workers and other Locals within the TWU actually own their contracts because they dont share contracts with other locals.But thats a discussion for another day.

VOTE NO, this is a concessionary deal. The Company got everything they wanted, a two year extension with no pay increase, expanded use of OSMs, revocation of our retiree health, no pension for the new hires, permanent probation for Crew Chiefs, doubling of the ASM cap(which would probably wipe out Title I at Class II stations and Title II at class III) , "automatically on" for Holidays, the ability to schedule MRT out of existance and more. We didnt get anything fully restored and the monetary compensation adjustments lag inflation. At the end of this deal we will be much worse off than we are now.

I stand corrected, the SWA agreement is with the International but the elected SWA reps control the negotiations.

 

[Bob Owens]

Not to worry.

.

As soon as the Line out numbers the overhaul you will really feel it. Best just get what you can before the other sellouts get theirs.
Just read the postings here and tell me how this can be called a "union"?

Sellouts? When was the last time we voted yes for a deal where Tulsa voted NO?

I dont think that the line has it in for Tulsa, we just pray that one day very soon Tulsa may learn to say "NO, enough is enough" and TWU Aircraft Maintenance wont be the laughing stock of the industry. The Flight Attendants have proven time and time again that they as a group have biggers cajones than we do.

Where did you read where the line wants to sell you outt?

 

[TWU informer]

Sellouts? When was the last time we voted yes for a deal where Tulsa voted NO?

I dont think that the line has it in for Tulsa, we just pray that one day very soon Tulsa may learn to say "NO, enough is enough" and TWU Aircraft Maintenance wont be the laughing stock of the industry. The Flight Attendants have proven time and time again that they as a group have biggers cajones than we do.

Where did you read where the line wants to sell you outt?

I just look at it this way.

#1 Majority rules in ANY Union.

#2. When the AMFA Drive was in full swing, you joined me in blaming the TWU Consitution, the undemocratic leaders removing you from Office, and the appointments to higher cash flow for the SELLOUTS.

#3. When you are a TWU Officer, you hold the negotiating secrets on demand, and return to "blame Tulsa" agenda.

I said "WHEN" the LINE is the majority TUL will be dooomed. You dispute that? I doubt it.

I don't dispute that TWU has reported in the past that Tulsa passes POS labor agreements, but I don't have as much confidence as you that their reported results are real. You seem to believe everything they say when it frames your current arguement. I know you are shackeled by your TWU Officer position but I never thought they would conquer your pride that way again. Thus I lost trust in you also.

I asked on more than one forum what the "Line AMT thought was fair" when it comes to wage seperation. All I got was how you work midnights, weekends, live aircraft, and in the weather. I want specifics about how much division wihtin the union you and others are seeking.

This so-called union has allowed so many divisions and us against them fighting, and it appears the line has been a willing participant this time in negotiations. The problem is the TWU doesn't demand a bigger pie, they just accept the companies offered pie and begin cutting it up for membership distribution. So in the end, your demand for higher Line Pay is not just a simple increase, iit is a smaller piece of pie for your union brothers,

Well consider me from here on as another , "OUT FOR MYSELF" too, as this is the only survival method with the TWU representing us. Unless someone shows me specifically what the negotiating committee plan to ask for in the event of a rejecting vote outcome. I am accepting this as the best the TWU can do for me, and will not risk some other greedy group taking away the small peice of pie I have coming in this T/A and putting on their plate.

No arguements with you, I surrender, you are right about everything, and the best there ever was.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I dont know about everyone but your question of seperation is simple. The federal government has COLA guidlines from state to state, add in shift differential and i dont think it is to much to ask. You make it sound like the line wants to feed the base to the wolves. You would have to be just plain ignorant to assume that all things cost the same no matter where you live. And NO I dont want to live in Tulsa and I assume you dont want to live in NY that is not the argument. After the many contracts of negotiated concessions both the base and the line have lost buying power. But most of the line guys tend to feel it more because our cost of living is higher. Is there anomosity between us? of course there is because everytime there is a concessionary contract it gets pushed through by the majority and guess where the majority lives. the piece of the pie we want pits us against each other but our exspenses on the line tend to be more according to the COLA. We dont want the whole pie just our fare share.

As far as Bob goes if it were not for him I would have to get my info from Todd Woodward need i say more...

We have been fighting this fight for a long time and I dont have the answer but I do know the answer is not YES

 

[whoop whoop]

Did you guys know the-amt.com is back up and running for the last month. maybee we can carry this conversation there just between mechanics?

 

[Birdman]

I dont know about everyone but your question of seperation is simple. The federal government has COLA guidlines from state to state, add in shift differential and i dont think it is to much to ask. You make it sound like the line wants to feed the base to the wolves. You would have to be just plain ignorant to assume that all things cost the same no matter where you live. And NO I dont want to live in Tulsa and I assume you dont want to live in NY that is not the argument. After the many contracts of negotiated concessions both the base and the line have lost buying power. But most of the line guys tend to feel it more because our cost of living is higher. Is there anomosity between us? of course there is because everytime there is a concessionary contract it gets pushed through by the majority and guess where the majority lives. the piece of the pie we want pits us against each other but our exspenses on the line tend to be more according to the COLA. We dont want the whole pie just our fare share.

As far as Bob goes if it were not for him I would have to get my info from Todd Woodward need i say more...

We have been fighting this fight for a long time and I dont have the answer but I do know the answer is not YES

Don't take the comments or attitudes of some on this blog too seriously. I assure you the vast majority of the title 1 in Tulsa neither discuss nor hold the least bit of animosity toward the line. We have our own problems to worry about including major sellouts and corruption. Nobody trusts any of the past election results or ratification votes. We'll see if the impending election, which will be handled by an independent election handler, will be any different.

 

[Bob Owens]

I just look at it this way.

#1 Majority rules in ANY Union.

#2. When the AMFA Drive was in full swing, you joined me in blaming the TWU Consitution, the undemocratic leaders removing you from Office, and the appointments to higher cash flow for the SELLOUTS.

#3. When you are a TWU Officer, you hold the negotiating secrets on demand, and return to "blame Tulsa" agenda.

Well majority rules, and for many years Tulsa was the majority and for many years Tulsa as a whole accepted the concessionary contracts that have dragged us down to where we are. I'm sure you guys feel it by now, we are at our wits end, many have simply given up, they have given up hope and they show up to work defeated-now its the company's problem because our performance reflects that. Conley and the company seem to think that the few crumbs in exchange for another limb will motivate us in looking out for "whats best for AMR". Well they are wrong, this is an offer that inspires no hope for the future, in fact the loss of retiree health makes the future even dimmer. Now thats over simplifying it because just as there were Yes votes out of JFK there were No votes out of Tulsa. Its not black and white but different shades of gray. Many of these contracts passed by slim majorities, IIRC in 1995 if those who failed to vote in NY had voted NO the result would have been different, assuming the vote was honest and not manipulated.

I said "WHEN" the LINE is the majority TUL will be dooomed. You dispute that? I doubt it.

No you said "when the line outnumbers OH you will really feel it". AFW, MCI-soon to be replaced by DFWH are overhaul as well. As the Delta/NWA & UAL/CAL mergers move forward their shear size will drive them to bring more work back in house. I think the outsourcing trend will start to subside because the bigger you are the more cost effective it is to control more of the production process.What may doom Tulsa is the same as what doomed MCI, its remoteness, not the line, but the avaialbility of an overhaul facility that they can Taxi to or a five minute hop where the crew can take a cab and fly another trip. With the surge in fuel prices that little jaunt up to Tulsa becomes more of a factor. I think that Tulsa will continue to shrink whether you vote Yes or NO. The question is will you guys chase your tails trying to maximize headcount or maximize your income.

I don't dispute that TWU has reported in the past that Tulsa passes POS labor agreements, but I don't have as much confidence as you that their reported results are real. You seem to believe everything they say when it frames your current arguement. I know you are shackeled by your TWU Officer position but I never thought they would conquer your pride that way again. Thus I lost trust in you also.

Not sure what you are basing that on but thats your perogootive to feel that way.

I asked on more than one forum what the "Line AMT thought was fair" when it comes to wage seperation. All I got was how you work midnights, weekends, live aircraft, and in the weather. I want specifics about how much division wihtin the union you and others are seeking.

You call it wage separation yet you have no problem with a welder making more than a parts washer. The wage should reflect the demands of the job. You get more than the parts washer because of the high skill level that your job requires. I dont see that as a negative thing. If the parts washer wants to or has the capacity to become a welder that option should be vavailable to him/her. Why do you deny that the unusual hours and harsh conditions of working the line warrant monetary recognition and call it seperation?

I think 10% is about right for line pay, I've already stated what I would like to see for shifts, 5% and 10% and it should be the same for all Title Groups.

This so-called union has allowed so many divisions and us against them fighting, and it appears the line has been a willing participant this time in negotiations.

How so? New York, LAX, DCA and AFW voted against this. So base and line stood against it and base and line are in favor if it. Now its up to you.

The problem is the TWU doesn't demand a bigger pie, they just accept the companies offered pie and begin cutting it up for membership distribution.

I agree 100%, so vote NO and demand a bigger pie.

We need to say No to further concessions. We need to get all our sick, vacation and holidays back, increases from amenable date with retro and knock it down to three years so we can go back next year and see where we stand.

 

[Hopeful]

OOHHHHHHH...We better jurry up and vote YES!...oooohhhhh

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/amr-labor-costs-exceed-industry-standards-by-600m-2010-05-19-84460?siteid=yhoof2