Why I Voted Yes

[TWU informer]

Under U.S.C. Section 1113 there is no requirement to establish a new status quo (your new contract) after abrogation. The only requirement is for the parties to meet but no timeline to create a new contract. So what I envision is after what I hope is not a no vote to create this unhappy event but if it does then the union will go to meet with the company as required by both parties through the Railway Labor Act and then I would expect the company to say (you have your imposed terms of employment, live with it, we will see you in 2018).....Just my spiel B)

Oh,yeah.....VOTE YES

Do you deny that those imposed terms upon abbrogation could be this T/A? And that we would be in the same place contractually as a yes vote would result in, except that we have an open window to negotiate further? The Judge does not impose the terms, AA will do that and they can impose this T/A and move along with the process and continue to work towards consenual agreements.

Politically, Public Opinion, NMB Policy, and even Legally to have a tentative agreement on the table that would be the terms for 6 years that AA says they could live with and then to revert back to 3/22 would be a mistake. AA wants and needs labor peace more than you seem to be able to imagine. There is no strike, there is no replacement workers, there is no alternative but to have reasonably happy AMT's with the potential and understanding for more negotiations to continue.

Imposing 3/22 would create a war that AA would have on it's hands with the Maintenance Department and thus would not be productive to their desires and NEEDS at this time. They want an agreement, but their hands have been tied by the UCC, BK rules, the Judge, and the "me too" clauses as to what they can even offer us now.

And it doesn't take 6 years to get away from those obstacles. Unless you vote yes and make it that long.

I agree with you that the 2010 T/A is still far better than anything we will see while AA is in Bankruptcy and beyond now, but once the company gets an approved plan of reorganization, the "me too" clauses of the other work groups expire, at that time, given that the Mechanic and Related group is the only group that was already last in the industry going in, I think have a very high chance of getting a better agreement. In other words, once we are away from the eyes of the UCC and the Judge, and AA has emerged, we stand a better chance of something worth voting on. Could be that pressure mounts to have that agreement before any plan to emerge is approved. Nobody knows that aspect. But it doesn't change the fact that Labor Peace is key to success.

In contrast, if this passes, we are stuck for 6 long years, or at least until early open becomes an option but that was of no value on our current agreement, it was there, and never used. Is there risk in my opinion of the situation? Yes, but given the extensive cost of the current T/A, and the fact that Job Security is gone completely, I think the risk is worth a look at moving towards the next step without giving them this version of consensual agreement or force another round of ermegency negotiations. But that requires one to eliminate the FEAR, and view this from logical thinking about what the next steps going forward would look like.

You look at this from the worst possible outcome, and that is just not the most likely outcome, possible yes, likely no.

I am willing to move forward in the process, and to reach the point that the UCC and the Judge is no longer an obstacle to us getting our fair share. If the company is as evil as you claim they would be upon abbrogation, then management would be offering this T/A to appease the courts, but you and I sure as hell would not see them making vote yes videos, and traveling the system peddling the crap. And allowing Union Meetings on company time while screaming labor cost problems would be unthinkable and never allowed. Think about it. Your opinion of abbrogation is worse for us, which must be better for them, but for some reason the company doesn't want to experience that either. What is your logical explanation for that?

You have the Line AMT's trying to help you get a better agreement, but you keep picking up the 20 lbs sledge hammer and driving the division wedge in deeper. The real strength of your union is asking you to help them, and you are doing all in your power to destroy that strength because you are afraid. And you are only afraid because your Local Leaders and AA Management are using fear to control your emotions. Just start looking at this mess from a less emotional view and try the logical view. While keeping in mind the fact that you have been lied to before by not only Local 514 Leaders but also AA Management.

The Line AMT is not your enemy here! Your enemy is FEAR!

 

[Mr Red]

Under U.S.C. Section 1113 there is no requirement to establish a new status quo (your new contract) after abrogation. The only requirement is for the parties to meet but no timeline to create a new contract. So what I envision is after what I hope is not a no vote to create this unhappy event but if it does then the union will go to meet with the company as required by both parties through the Railway Labor Act and then I would expect the company to say (you have your imposed terms of employment, live with it, we will see you in 2018).....Just my spiel B)

Oh,yeah.....VOTE YES

You don't get it!It was OVER 10 years ago!!We are trying to make sure the TWU doesn't F the rest
of the Airline A/Ps anymore!!You have no relevance here.Go talk to the bus drivers or Zebco fishing rod workers.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Do you deny that those imposed terms upon abbrogation could be this T/A? And that we would be in the same place as a yes vote would result in, except that we have an open window to negotiate further?

Politically, Public Opinion, NMB Policy, and even Legally to have a tentative agreement on the table that would be the terms for 6 years that AA says they could live with and then to revert back to 3/22 would be a mistake. AA wants and needs labor peace more than you seem to be able to imagine.

Imposing 3/22 would create a war that AA would have on it's hands with the Maintenance Department and thus would not be productive to their desires and NEEDS at this time. They want an agreement, but their hands have been tied by the UCC, BK rules, the Judge, and the "me too" clauses as to what they can even offer us now.

And it doesn't take 6 years to get away from those obstacles. Unless you vote yes and make it that long.

I agree with you that the 2010 T/A is still far better than anything we will see while AA is in Bankruptcy, but once the company gets an approved plan of reorganization, the "me too" clauses of the other work groups expire, at that time, given that the Mechanic and Related group is the only group that was already last in the industry going in, I think have a very high chance of getting a better agreement. In other words, once we are away from the eyes of the UCC and the Judge, and AA has emerged, we stand a better chance of something worth voting on.

In contrast, if this passes, we are stuck for 6 long years, or at least until early open becomes an option but that was of no value on our current agreement, it was there, and never used.

You look at this from the worst possible outcome, and that is just not the most likely outcome, possible yes, likely no.

I am willing to move forward in the process, and to reach the point that the UCC and the Judge is no longer an obstacle to us getting our fair share. If the company is as evil as you claim they would be upon abbrogation, then management would be offering this T/A to appease the courts, but you and I sure as hell would not see them making vote yes videos, and traveling the system peddling the crap. Think about it. Your opinion of abbrogation is worse for us, which must be better for them, but for some reason the company doesn't want to experience that either. What is your logical explanation for that?

You have the Line AMT's trying to help you get a better agreement, but you keep picking up the 20 lbs sledge hammer and driving the division wedge in deeper. The real strength of your union is asking you to help them, and you are doing all in your power to destroy that strength because you are afraid. And you are only afraid because your Local Leaders and AA Management are using fear to control your emotions. Just start looking at from a less emotional view and try the logical view based on the fact that you have been lied to before by not only Local 514 but also AA Management. The Line AMT is not yor enemy here! Your enemy is FEAR!

Believing your own bullshet again I see. You say the company is just gonna impose this TA on us with a no vote because they will feel sorry for us. I dissagree Informer. I have not heard or seen anything from the company that would suggest they would do that short of a consensual deal with the TWU M&R or Stores groups. Your dreaming and hoping don't quite line up with the reality of the written facts we have before us. I say with a vote no you better hold onto your arse..... :huh:

 

[High Speed Steel]

You don't get it!It was OVER 10 years ago!!We are trying to make sure the TWU doesn't F the rest
of the Airline A/Ps anymore!!You have no relevance here.Go talk to the bus drivers or Zebco fishing rod workers.

You fella's don't like me much. I only try to show you the truth of what I know and don't try to mislead you in any way, but you don't like me and keep giving me minus marks on my popularity and it makes me really sad....

Besides Its too hot outside so I may as well come in where its cool and visit with you fella's....

 

[Realityck]

Do you deny that those imposed terms upon abbrogation could be this T/A? And that we would be in the same place contractually as a yes vote would result in, except that we have an open window to negotiate further?


You're kidding right? First it was the "we want everything back that we gave up in 2003" chant, then the vote NO contingent with Owens, Peterson, and their AMFA fan club, now you're suggesting the company may force us to accept the T/A and we'd just go on negotiating? What the heck are you drinking, that must be some powerful stuff!

 

[TWU informer]

Believing your own bullshet again I see. You say the company is just gonna impose this TA on us with a no vote because they will feel sorry for us. I dissagree Informer. I have not heard or seen anything from the company that would suggest they would do that short of a consensual deal with the TWU M&R or Stores groups. Your dreaming and hoping don't quite line up with the reality of the written facts we have before us. I say with a vote no you better hold onto your arse..... :huh:

Of course you will not see the company say that fool. They want the 6 year deal approved and stop the negotiations.

Are you really that thick headed?

There are NO FACTS, until we see what happens.

You have no FACTS before you, you have manipulation and FEAR before you in writing and that is all.

 

[TWU informer]

You're kidding right? First it was the "we want everything back that we gave up in 2003" chant, then the vote NO contingent with Owens, Peterson, and their AMFA fan club, now you're suggesting the company may force us to accept the T/A and we'd just go on negotiating? What the heck are you drinking, that must be some powerful stuff!

Can you prove that will not happen and instead the sky will fall, the sun will not rise, and we will all be sucked in the black hole you believe in?

My prediction is more valid and plausible than yours! You are too thick to see the potential and that is why you always lead this industry backwards everytime we enter negotations.

 

[TWU informer]

You fella's don't like me much. I only try to show you the truth of what I know and don't try to mislead you in any way, but you don't like me and keep giving me minus marks on my popularity and it makes me really sad....

Besides Its too hot outside so I may as well come in where its cool and visit with you fella's....

You have no more TRUTH and no more FACTS about what will happen than anyone else here.
All you have is FEAR. And you predict the worst, which is possible but not likely.
Remember, you also said if we turned the last one down we would already be abbrogated and working under 3/22. That did not happen. So your TRUTH Manual is flawed.

 

[Tex-Mech]

You're kidding right? First it was the "we want everything back that we gave up in 2003" chant, then the vote NO contingent with Owens, Peterson, and their AMFA fan club, now you're suggesting the company may force us to accept the T/A and we'd just go on negotiating? What the heck are you drinking, that must be some powerful stuff!

Yeah, I know the its better for us to just bend over and take it, when guys like you dont have to work under it.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Of course you will not see the company say that fool. They want the 6 year deal approved and stop the negotiations.

Are you really that thick headed?

There are NO FACTS, until we see what happens.

You have no FACTS before you, you have manipulation and FEAR before you in writing and that is all.

I have come to the conclusion that I can't help you Informer, your unawareness of our current situation and your assumed fantasy's of what you think to be reality are over the top..... :huh:

 

[High Speed Steel]

Over 10,500 hits

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

I can already say it is worse now than it would have been, even Informer agrees with me on this one. I told you people in 2010 to vote for that TA because it was the best you were gonna get, but of course you listend to people who claimed there was more to get and that Bankruptcy was just a threat. Well look at us now. I guess for some folks total abrogation is what its gonna take to fix stupid...

There you go using the word stupid as if you do not possess a chocolate box full of stupid yourself.

The 2010 POS was the other half of the company's "Vermont Plan". Had we voted yes to that it would have been game over. Yet people unlike yourself who possess a spine decided to live on their feet and not their knees. The twu's pandering of voting yes on more concessions after the sacrifices we made in 2003 is sickening.

"Total abrogation" you state? Do you shriek like a scared school girl when you watch a scary movie? Why do you accept the union/company's fear tactics? Why is it so hard for you to fight for what our craft deserves? Try defending your craft for a change.

 

[TWU informer]

I have come to the conclusion that I can't help you Informer, your unawareness of our current situation and your assumed fantasy's of what you think to be reality are over the top..... :huh:

I am not asking for your help. I don't need you to help me.

If we were to accept your version of the truth, then since you claimed that if the last vote went NO, we would already be abbrogated, have no contract, and the end of the world would be near.

WE voted NO, and your TRUTH never came to pass.

If you have proof that what you call "my fantasy" cannot legally happen, then by all means share with us. Otherwise your version of TRUTH has already been proven flawed.

 

[High Speed Steel]

There you go using the word stupid as if you do not possess a chocolate box full of stupid yourself.

The 2010 POS was the other half of the company's "Vermont Plan". Had we voted yes to that it would have been game over. Yet people unlike yourself who possess a spine decided to live on their feet and not their knees. The twu's pandering of voting yes on more concessions after the sacrifices we made in 2003 is sickening.

"Total abrogation" you state? Do you shriek like a scared school girl when you watch a scary movie? Why do you accept the union/company's fear tactics? Why is it so hard for you to fight for what our craft deserves? Try defending your craft for a change.

Ken, go sit in the truck.... B)

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Don't try and blow sunshine up my but Ken. If you believe that, then you are more gullable than I origionally thought....lmao

You say as well you have less senior mechanics looking for work. Well they too should vote yes and take the money and go while they job search.....

hss tool,

I couldn't blow sunshine up your butt even if I wanted to because that orifice is blocked by your cranium.

Unlike you I work with the people here in SAN. You asked a question and I responded with a answer. You feel you understand what the "less senior" people here think about this t/a? That's funny because no one here hides behind an alias while supporting a craft killer of a t/a.

The "less senior" guys here are only junior in the amount of time they have been employed by AA. This has nothing to do with their capacity for having principles nor their tolerance for being lied to repeatedly by both the union and company. These "less senior" guys understand that even if by some orchestrated manipulation of fear and more fear this t/a actually passes NOTHING in the contract will protect them in the coming RIF. You see hss tool not everyone is a Judas to their craft like you are.

Vote NO!