who gives a sh*t anymore?

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Well in that case......
 
Bob you blaming Tulsa for the woes of the line mechanics only goes so far. The line mechanics have never had Geo Pay and they never had a realistic expectation of getting it. You can't put up with the same crap for 20 years (or longer) then blame someone else for your predicament. In the end it is an individual decision to stay employed by American Airlines.
 
I do see where your coming from on the issue of Geo Pay but honestly...... when does it get to the point when you stop blaming others and ask yourself if maybe you could have made better decisions about your employment opportunities over your career.
 
The fact is you traded in your career opportunities or did not seek them for UNION seniority. You had the ability but not the want to relocate to a location with a better income to cost of living ratio. That was your choice.
 
The downward spiral of pay and benefits for AMT's began long ago. You knew 20 years ago (almost half of most peoples careers) you were losing ground on benefits and pay.

 

[Flying low]

If my faded memory serves me correct, Bob and others tried to get GEO pay for the line, but once again the "majority" in Tulsa said no.

 

[Zom JFK]

If my faded memory serves me correct, Bob and others tried to get GEO pay for the line, but once again the "majority" in Tulsa said no.

Of course they did. Typical AA employee thinking. It dont affect me. Who the hell are they?!?! Why should they get that?!?!

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

If my faded memory serves me correct, Bob and others tried to get GEO pay for the line, but once again the "majority" in Tulsa said no.

You are missing the point.
 
I am sure Bob tried very hard to get Geo Pay. I am not attacking Bob. In fact I totally agree with Bob's position on the issue of Geo Pay.
 
We are not talking about good intentions.
 
We are talking about reasonable expectations.
 
Let's face it; you have a sellout UNION and a buyout company. This is not new information. Unless you have had your head in the sand for the last 20 years you knew the chances of getting Geo Pay were practically nil.
 
Why blame Tulsa for something you knew was probably not going to happen 20 years ago?
 
Are you going to blame Tulsa 20 years from now (if they are still there and you are still employed by AA) if you still don't have Geo Pay?
 
 
 
I knew for a fact I was going to get laid off in 2012 with no chance of recall.  I could have put in a transfer to a new title position (many did transfer with a lot less time than I had). I could have tried to bump another Fleet Service Clerk (I know at least one made it to DFW that had similar seniority), instead I made a decision that it was no longer worth my investment of time to work for American Airlines. I took a look at the trend of past losses and the future forecast and decided it was no longer worth the investment.
 
I am simply asking you, why did you not make the same decision earlier in your career if you are an older person, or now if you are young enough to move on.
 
I think that is a fair question.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well in that case......
 
Bob you blaming Tulsa for the woes of the line mechanics only goes so far. The line mechanics have never had Geo Pay and they never had a realistic expectation of getting it. You can't put up with the same crap for 20 years (or longer) then blame someone else for your predicament. In the end it is an individual decision to stay employed by American Airlines.
 
I do see where your coming from on the issue of Geo Pay but honestly...... when does it get to the point when you stop blaming others and ask yourself if maybe you could have made better decisions about your employment opportunities over your career.
 
The fact is you traded in your career opportunities or did not seek them for UNION seniority. You had the ability but not the want to relocate to a location with a better income to cost of living ratio. That was your choice.
 
The downward spiral of pay and benefits for AMT's began long ago. You knew 20 years ago (almost half of most peoples careers) you were losing ground on benefits and pay.

Ok, That's one way of looking at it, but the fact is most other carriers have some sort of GEO pay in their contracts, even though most of those contracts are far superior than ours. (If you have a better deal then there is less need for GEO).  No other industry that I know of pays people in places like Tulsa the same as they pay them in places like LA or NY, it simply doesn't happen. In nearly every other field outside of Commercial Aviation, even the Federal Government and Walmart,  pay is different based on location. The fact is that for many years AA was paying Tulsa above market rates, just as many other carriers did, in order to get contracts passed. Over the years Tulsa became ruled by fear of losing their good deal and started using their majority status to cannibalize the line as much as the company would allow, now the company has nothing else they can go after except Tulsa itself. Should the line defend Tulsa from the terms Tulsa put in place after Tulsa preyed upon the line for many years? 
 
Sure I chose to stay, foolish enough to think things would get better, but that's really a management response, not a Union response, no different than, "if you don't like it quit" , or "move to Tulsa", when I realized that things just kept getting worse I started speaking out about it, then ran for office to try and change things, still trying.  Things are changing, just not fast enough. The amount of damage is far outpacing the amount of change. 
 
Some Tulsa reps claim that any sort of GEO pay was anti-union, when in fact those people are the most anti-union union members that exist. Their mantra is "whats best for Tulsa is all that matters" and "we are the majority so you have to support whatever we say". They were so concerned with screwing the line instead of protecting the profession that they went ahead and screwed themselves and are only now starting to realize what they did. Some are saying we should be willing to fight to undo what they did, and of course, as usual, expect nothing in return (musn't forget our minority status "now sit down and shut up") . I see as much value in that as they did in addressing our issues. How would placing Tulsa back in control, back as a majority help us? Sure they tell us how reductions in Tulsa will lead to people bumping the line, sure there may be a little of that in the beginning with the most Junior guys, but anyone over 55 with enough years to get a pension and Travel isnt going anywhere, even if they closed Tulsa somebody else would pick up the facility and the same people would be working there, just for a little less money, once their AA pension got added in they would be making the same. MCI didn't stay vacant, neither will AFW, neither would Tulsa if their "worst case scenario" actually did occur. 
 
Supporting people who are in favor of giving the company whatever they want is anti-union, it goes against everything a Union stands for. If you give the company whatever they want then what is the purpose of a Union? May as well save the dues and be Non-union. Without a doubt our association has been detrimental to our careers and our lives and if I was 25 years old and knew what I know now I would not be working for American Airlines.  Such are the hard, expensive lessons of life. 

 

[AANOTOK]

Of course they did. Typical AA employee thinking. It dont affect me. Who the hell are they?!?! Why should they get that?!?!

Do you carry that broad brush every where you go Zom? I for one only think it's fair that some areas get Geo pay. I'm also quite sure there are many others who feel that way...

 

[iluvaa]

If my faded memory serves me correct, Bob and others tried to get GEO pay for the line, but once again the "majority" in Tulsa said no.

If my memory serves me correctly it was the line stations fighting amongst themselves about who would get how much

 

[Realityck]

Ok, That's one way of looking at it, but the fact is most other carriers have some sort of GEO pay in their contracts, even though most of those contracts are far superior than ours. (If you have a better deal then there is less need for GEO).  No other industry that I know of pays people in places like Tulsa the same as they pay them in places like LA or NY, it simply doesn't happen. In nearly every other field outside of Commercial Aviation, even the Federal Government and Walmart,  pay is different based on location. The fact is that for many years AA was paying Tulsa above market rates, just as many other carriers did, in order to get contracts passed. Over the years Tulsa became ruled by fear of losing their good deal and started using their majority status to cannibalize the line as much as the company would allow, now the company has nothing else they can go after except Tulsa itself. Should the line defend Tulsa from the terms Tulsa put in place after Tulsa preyed upon the line for many years? 
 
Sure I chose to stay, foolish enough to think things would get better, but that's really a management response, not a Union response, no different than, "if you don't like it quit" , or "move to Tulsa", when I realized that things just kept getting worse I started speaking out about it, then ran for office to try and change things, still trying.  Things are changing, just not fast enough. The amount of damage is far outpacing the amount of change. 
 
Some Tulsa reps claim that any sort of GEO pay was anti-union, when in fact those people are the most anti-union union members that exist. Their mantra is "whats best for Tulsa is all that matters" and "we are the majority so you have to support whatever we say". They were so concerned with screwing the line instead of protecting the profession that they went ahead and screwed themselves and are only now starting to realize what they did. Some are saying we should be willing to fight to undo what they did, and of course, as usual, expect nothing in return (musn't forget our minority status "now sit down and shut up") . I see as much value in that as they did in addressing our issues. How would placing Tulsa back in control, back as a majority help us? Sure they tell us how reductions in Tulsa will lead to people bumping the line, sure there may be a little of that in the beginning with the most Junior guys, but anyone over 55 with enough years to get a pension and Travel isnt going anywhere, even if they closed Tulsa somebody else would pick up the facility and the same people would be working there, just for a little less money, once their AA pension got added in they would be making the same. MCI didn't stay vacant, neither will AFW, neither would Tulsa if their "worst case scenario" actually did occur. 
 
Supporting people who are in favor of giving the company whatever they want is anti-union, it goes against everything a Union stands for. If you give the company whatever they want then what is the purpose of a Union? May as well save the dues and be Non-union. Without a doubt our association has been detrimental to our careers and our lives and if I was 25 years old and knew what I know now I would not be working for American Airlines.  Such are the hard, expensive lessons of life. 

 
 
 
Why don't you stop beating up on the Tulsa AMT's. You claim most other carriers have some sort of GEO pay in their contracts. Can you tell us which Airlines pay a GEO adjustment for working in New York or Los Angeles?

 

[700UW]

Never had it at US, I believe the only mechanics and even rampers that got GEO pay was at UA, I think LGA, DCA, JFK, LAX, and HNL had it
 
And I think at LGA and DCA, Piedmont had it for maintenance back ion the day, not 100% sure.

 

[Rogallo]

 
 
 
You claim most other carriers have some sort of GEO pay in their contracts. Can you tell us which Airlines pay a GEO adjustment for working in New York or Los Angeles?

 
So, your saying since they don't have it that we shouldn't have it?
 
With an attitude like that no wonder the TWU does a piss poor job at negotiating a contract.
 
TWU GOTTA GO!  YOU STINK AT YOUR JOB!

 

[OgieJFK]

Do you carry that broad brush every where you go Zom? I for one only think it's fair that some areas get Geo pay. I'm also quite sure there are many others who feel that way...

Did he say anything that wasn't true about most of the TWU members? Not IMHO cause most TWU members have anti-union thinking "beat" into them by their management, crew chiefs ( especially CCs), union officials, and fellow coworkers. You might think it a "broad brush" but from my experiences at AA it was dead on at the station I was based. As for geo pay...I was all for it.

 

[OgieJFK]

 
 
 
Why don't you stop beating up on the Tulsa AMT's. You claim most other carriers have some sort of GEO pay in their contracts. Can you tell us which Airlines pay a GEO adjustment for working in New York or Los Angeles?

And there is that fighting TWU union spirit I so loved. Cause really guys why try to get the most for our members...you know like a REAL union should do.

 

[Rogallo]

And there is that fighting TWU union spirit I so loved. Cause really guys why try to get the most for our members...you know like a REAL union should do.

 
Exactly!

 

[Bob Owens]

If my memory serves me correctly it was the line stations fighting amongst themselves about who would get how much

Well it was really Dons puppets on the line, who were all subsequently removed. Todd Woodward tried to use the excuse that he was against it because MIA wasn't getting as much as NY, that argument didn't fly in MIA and they removed him. As part of  the "white spaces farce"  Don told Todd to make the motion because he didn't want it coming from Tulsa. 

 

[Zom JFK]

Do you carry that broad brush every where you go Zom? I for one only think it's fair that some areas get Geo pay. I'm also quite sure there are many others who feel that way...

Yes Notok you have no problem with geo pay for AA mechs (neither do I). As long as those "greedy" retirees dont get thier hands on any equity. Separate issues but when I read your posts about the retirees equity lawsuit you show the mentality I speak of.