WHO DESTROYED OUR CAREERS?

[jerseyfinn]

I'm a Merle Haggard fan myself. In 1982 he writes "Are the Good Times Really Over".

I wish a buck was still silver it was back when the country was strong,
Back before Elvis and before the Vietnam War came along.
Before the Beatles and “Yesterdayâ€￾ when a man could still work and still would;
The best of the free life’s behind us now and are the good times really over for good?

And are we rolling down hill like a snowball headed for hell?
With no kind of chance for the flag or the Liberty Bell.
I wish a Ford and a Chevy would still last ten years like they should.
Is the best of the free life behind us now and are the good times really over for good



I've got a bunch of old silver dollars in a safe deposit box. I miss Elvis and the Beatles and I detest rap. I stop driving American cars decades ago when the Japanese made better vehicles. Of course now, I need bifocals to read and joints ache at days end.

As to who's to blame at US.

You can all talk about what should or could be, or you can live life right now. Truth be told, one could substitute Walmart for US Air if you want to talk about folks in a tough employment situation. Then again, those folks are too busy going to work and just trying to get by.

Life is about choices. Some of them we make ourselves, others are imposed by the world around us.

Life goes on. Jump on that bandwagon.

Barry

 

[qwerty]

And, 22,000 of my collegues did lose their jobs. The demand for flying has only increased; not decreased, as evidenced by most of the majors earning profits. I can assure you as I sit here today, that if the company would have shut down, 100% of those working would either be working for another airline or another industry!!! With regard to the majority of labor's current wage, it sucks with no prospects of increase until 2012, if ever. Many of my collegues who have kept their jobs at U have declared personal BK.

So if I understand you correctly - rather than presented with a choice of sticking it out or moving on to another profession, you advocate a relaxation of the bankruptcy laws, effectively leaving US in 2004/05 no choice but to liquidate, putting every last employee involuntarily out of work, out of healthcare and without a pension?

If I worked for a company that cut my salary to the point of personal bankruptcy, I'd find another line of work.

I do agree with the push to raise the minimum wage AND limiting executive compensation. But I'll ask again, why does a pilot, working in a position that many would do for nearly nothing, deserve a $2 million retirement? Kudos to their negotiating team - although they didn't have the foresight to recognize the consequences.

 

[PITbull]

So if I understand you correctly - rather than presented with a choice of sticking it out or moving on to another profession, you advocate a relaxation of the bankruptcy laws, effectively leaving US in 2004/05 no choice but to liquidate, putting every last employee involuntarily out of work, out of healthcare and without a pension?

If I worked for a company that cut my salary to the point of personal bankruptcy, I'd find another line of work.

I do agree with the push to raise the minimum wage AND limiting executive compensation. But I'll ask again, why does a pilot, working in a position that many would do for nearly nothing, deserve a $2 million retirement? Kudos to their negotiating team - although they didn't have the foresight to recognize the consequences.

You're addressing the wrong person on this issue.

Rule #1, you need to know who your dealing with across the table. They were con-artists, disingenuious, untrustworthy and were out for their own personal gain. Labor's support of these concessions lined the execs pockets and future execs who came on board. They played the psychological game with the leadership and convinced the majority that they need to move to do the good for the "whole"; not just the group. Much blah, blah, blah,..and stripping the employee of any self worth. In the end, many were convinced they had no worth and needed to stay with the job they have. Mind games to the 10th power.

I advocated no support in all 3 concessions. The rippling negative effect on the "whole industry" was worth any risk or consequence in not keeping this job, my friend. Health care you can get from just about any employer for a price. Even U's employee health care costs are unaffordable for the wage earned. With regard to pensions, those were dumped by a judge who supports and protects the creditors, investors according to what the law allows. 401ks that are self funded with the only advantage being a tax deferrment can be had with just about any company as long as you have enough of a wage to contribute. Many at U froze their contributions because of the drastic decrease in wages.

Labor was not part of the equation. I knew who and what I was dealing with. I suport an "even playing field" and balance. There is none in bankruptcy. I expect the laws to change as time progresses.

With regard to pilot retirement and compensation; your comment is pretty lame pulling a 20/20. If I were a pilot at U or any industry, knowing what I know today, I would still push and opt for a defined pesnion plan. That is part of longevity employment and makes the field a profession.

 

[gabby]

You're addressing the wrong person on this issue.

Rule #1, you need to know who your dealing with across the table. They were con-artists, disingenuious, untrustworthy and were out for their own gain. Labor's support of these concessions lined their pockets. They played the psychological game with the leadership and convinced the majority that they need to move to do the good for the "whole"; not just the group. Much blah, blah, blah,..and stripping the employee of any self worth. In the end, many were convinced they had no worth and needed to stay with the job they have. Mind games to the 10th power.

I advocated no support in all 3 concessions. The rippling negative effect on the "whole industry" was worth any risk or consequence in not keeping this job, my friend. Health care you can get from just about any employer for a price. Even U's employee health care costs are unaffordable for the wage earned. With regard to pensions, those were dumped by a judge who supports and protects the creditors, investors according to what the law allows. 401ks that are self funded with the only advantage being a tax deferrment can be had with just about any company as long as you have enough of a wage to contribute. Many at U froze their contributions because of the drastic decrease in wages.

Labor was not part of the equation. I knew who and what I was dealing with. I suport an "even playing field" and balance. There is none in bankruptcy. I expect the laws to change as time progresses.

With regard to pilot retirement and compensation; your comment is pretty lame pulling a 20/20. If I were a pilot at U or any industry, knowing what I know today, I would still push and opt for a defined pesnion plan. That is part of longevity employment and makes the field a profession.

Greed and selfishness.

We all must be willing to lose our jobs for the better cause. Not sell eachother out. Lets hope the new generation of pilots have enough integrity to stand up to management and congress. And the New Alpa is as strong as their words. When we vote we need to think about the whole pilot group, not just the good of the top 20%.

 

[qwerty]

Mind games to the 10th power.

You're a much better debater when you avoid the pitiful victim statements. Mind games kept 20,000 employees from making something better of themselves? You voted no, good for you, but you got outvoted and the company was saved.

Concessions went the way of the majority, or do you not believe the majority rules argument? The bankruptcy laws and the politicians that implemented came on majority votes too. We do not live in in socialism. Management did their JOB, saving the company, and with that came rewards (excessive? probably.) Union employees show up and work - that is your JOB. If the pay and the benefits aren't what you expect, move on or fight to change them. I applaud you for doing so. The self destructive whining is getting old.

 

[hp_fa]

I expect the laws to change as time progresses.

They already have. That is why NW and DL rushed to file their BK's in September. The laws changed for cases filed on or after Oct 1, 2005.

 

[PITbull]

You're a much better debater when you avoid the pitiful victim statements. Mind games kept 20,000 employees from making something better of themselves? You voted no, good for you, but you got outvoted and the company was saved.

Concessions went the way of the majority, or do you not believe the majority rules argument? The bankruptcy laws and the politicians that implemented came on majority votes too. We do not live in in socialism. Management did their JOB, saving the company, and with that came rewards (excessive? probably.) Union employees show up and work - that is your JOB. If the pay and the benefits aren't what you expect, move on or fight to change them. I applaud you for doing so. The self destructive whining is getting old.

Yes. Mind games effected the employees in way that the "stockholm syndrome" does on victims, as evidenced by your spew...I suspect you were on the otherside of someone's table. My view is is quite the opposite of yours. Employees come to work to be a part of something they make great. They come to work to be respected, show respect and be part of a team to achieve collective success. The synergy occurs when their is mutual job satisfaction and sharing in a company's success makes for a solid, sustaining, profitable company for all.

If you think that the laborer's job in a company is to just show up, you have been part of the problem.

I beg to differ with the lame retorhic that managment did their jobs... saved the company. They were saving themselves for the massive payout on the bet of labor acquiescing. It is labor that saved this company, not the execs.

You never forget it; I won't!

 

[RedOne]

Deleted by me because I wanted to. I'm gone. No need to continue to fight the fight. Good luck to all.

(There are some I would LOVE to see at my new job. Come see me!)

 

[qwerty]

Yes. Mind games effected the employees in way that the "stockholm syndrome" does on victims, as evidenced by your spew...I suspect you were on the otherside of someone's table. My view is is quite the opposite of yours. Employees come to work to be a part of something they make great. They come to work to be respected, show respect and be part of a team to achieve collective success. The synergy occurs when their is mutual job satisfaction and sharing in a company's success makes for a solid, sustaining, profitable company for all.

If you think that the laborer's job in a company is to just show up, you have been part of the problem.

I beg to differ with the lame retorhic that managment did their jobs... saved the company. They were saving themselves for the massive payout on the bet of labor acquiescing. It is labor that saved this company, not the execs.

You never forget it; I won't!

People come to work for pay and benefits. Sure its nice when someone feels a strong affinity to the company and its interests - but if they really feel that way, then they know deep down the company that they love so much is doing what it needs to do to survive. I notice you left, was it the cut in pay or the loss of the warm fuzzies?

I agree the company needs to create a better partnership with labor (and I'm on neither side of the table by the way), but diviying up a couple of million in executive bonuses may help you fill the tank up a couple of times - but you risk losing the folks that took bold steps to save you.

How many managers, good and bad, are now long gone with little to show for it? Only a few lefr with big money and in the grand scheme of things - it would hardly fix the dent in your paycheck.

 

[PITbull]

Managers don't make the rules...they follow the orders.

Those 10 execs who were hired by the BOD in 2002, concocted the scheme to restructure the company, go into BK, bust contracts, and ALL leave with major payouts. After all, they made the rules, used a nations tragedy for their excuse, and left the company with more millions than they came in with, evidenced by... NONE of those execs are a part of the new company except the ring-leader-union-buster Jerry G, kept on as a consultant for more future mergers with labor and labor agreements. They all received exit packages with huge compensation as promised by the BOD.

The presence of Jerry G still remianing at U reveals to me that management is not quite finished with labor.

Those who have stayed on have to clearly understand the element that is at U and what they are dealing with. That's rule #1. Otherwise, history just keeps repeating.

 

[Ardenian]

After only two different ALPA work rules--PIA and U S Air in my 22.5 yrs ---I have to say the work rules destroyed my career----I used to be extrememly hard on Uncle Ed---but have done a 180 ref him---work rules and pay right after 9/11 only changed at one place that I can think of---American's Allied Pilots group---we just kept making the big bucks bleeding down the rwy center line---not to mention the 60K+ the RC4 dudes cost each pilot here my .02$ Two

Huh? I don't get what you're sayin'...

57% of us wanted "a deal, any deal," just please let me keep on wearing a uniform! And we were "prepared to go to the Company's ask!" All we wanted is for someone to "Let my Daddy Vote!"

Gag, gag, gag...

There are some so blind, that they cannot see the employees used to be well paid, but now only the management is well paid. Where are the "big bucks bleeding down the rwy center line" now?

It's time to admit it, us CLT boys were scared, scared to death. We reached our point of fear, pure fear. Now that the confrontation is over, we need someone else to blame. It sure is a lot easier to buy into USA320's crap than look in a mirror.

But at least I still get to wear my uniform to Lake Norman cocktail parties.

Here we have the perfect example of the GAG. This is the mentality of defeatism and truly not realizing what it is he does for a living. Or where the true problems in the industry lie. He cant' figure out that a Southwest pilot makes 40% more than he does because the Southwest management know how to run an airline...And this cretin blames his fellow pilots for the problems.

He is worth the .02 cents he espouses and that is precisely what management will pay him. Because he will accept it without a whimper, blame the pilots for the airline ills and walk happily into the sunset thrilled he can just fly the airplanes. Because "that's all I know how to do."

And this attitude is a prime reason our careers have turned into jobs. This guy will give until the cows come home.

Just so he can fly his airplane.

Wow!

Pure genius! You can't be a CLT boy, can you?

I apologize, there are some good CLT boys that see the big picture.

Like BoeingBoy.

US Airways needs more like him, but I fear that particular gene pool is dwindling, evidenced by what I see on the MEC these days.

Come back, BoeingBoy! Save us from USA320 and his mind-numbed robots!

The presence of Jerry G reveals to me that U is not quite finished with labor.

I can tell you actually got to sit across the table from him, am I right?

He has a field day with labor, especially the pilots.

Where is USA 320 when you need some comic relief?

Probably going to dinner with Parker or Glass...

 

[qwerty]

Managers don't make the rules...they follow the orders.

Those 10 execs who were hired by the BOD in 2002, concocted the scheme to restructure the company, go into BK, bust contracts, and ALL leave with major payouts. After all, they made the rules, used a nations tragedy for their excuse, and left the company with more millions than they came in with, evidenced by... NONE of those execs are a part of the new company except the ring-leader-union-buster Jerry G, kept on as a consultant for more future mergers with labor and labor agreements. They all received exit packages with huge compensation as promised by the BOD.

The presence of Jerry G still remianing at U reveals to me that management is not quite finished with labor.

Those who have stayed on have to clearly understand the element that is at U and what they are dealing with. That's rule #1. Otherwise, history just keeps repeating.

So these 10 were hired to do a job - did it - and got paid for it. How is that different from unionized labor? You agree to a contract - do the work - and are paid for it.

Huge compensation? That's just class envy. You want the big paycheck? Find another line of work. People that don't realize that it's not getting better anytime soon would be better off. How about a government job?

And nice 9/11 reference, is that your version of the race card? I am sure if the industry just left well enough alone everything would have turned out juuuuust fine.

 

[PITbull]

qwerty effect,

No. Labor had contracts that were NOT open. Bankruptcy forced that. The only contracts that remained "untouched" during this process. Now I'll ask the questions... WHY???

Why did these execs contracts remained intact inclduing their pensions????

Sorry, boy wonder, you must have walked away with a chunk.

I don't care what Management gets paid... I care that Labor took the wack in wages and benefits, while managment saw their compensation soar. I resent that labor negotiations were not fairly conducted and not on an even playing field...AND I RESENT THE FACT THAT MY PROMISED PENSION AFTER 25 YEARS OF SERVICE GOT TERMINATED!!!!