767 AND 777 GONE

[chris perry]

Maintenance standards at all airlines have been lowered at all airlines,it's a race to the bottom...It's gambling pure and simple.

 

[Buck]

Seems to me they've been doing that, Jim. For the 10 years I've been on this forum, there's been a constant drum beating about how planes are going to be falling out of the sky whenever someone outsources maintenance.

In all that time, there's been lots of cries of smoke, but so far, not a single fire....

Remember all the AFW, TUL, and line guys pissing & moaning about MCI's first couple of overhauls on the AA certificate? You'd have thought that Missouri was in Guatemala....

I even remember people complaining about the lack of quality when the 757 moving from AFW to TUL...

My fear is that with so much "Chicken Little" syndrome going on, should something credible actually be discovered, it's not going to be taken seriously by anyone at the FAA...

E. I see your point, however there is documented 757 MRO maintenance, that has been somewhat lacking especially in contractual turn times.

 

[JAFI]

The way our union mechanics call the FAA on their fellow union brothers, I don't see how this will make much difference. I have talked with the FAA on several occasions about how AA mechanics use them as a whipping tool more than any other airline, and they weren't happy about it. It is a strain on their work force.

In my humble opinion, ratting on someone should be your last resource and not your first. There are times when the offense is so aggregious or serious that you may need to use the FAA, but most times people use them just to assuage their egos.

 

[Mach85ER]

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/story/11196015/1/us-airways-captain-escorted-from-airport.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA
US Airways Captain Escorted From Airport
On June 16, captain XXXXXXXXX, a 30-year-pilot, was scheduled to fly an Airbus A330, which can carry nearly 300 passengers, on a flight from Philadelphia to Rome. But she declined to fly because of failures of both the auxiliary power unit, a backup source of electrical power, and the "hot battery bus," a primary source of electrical power.

Well aware of that incident.

We don't work for that POS outfit yet.

 

[Buck]

The way our union mechanics call the FAA on their fellow union brothers, I don't see how this will make much difference. I have talked with the FAA on several occasions about how AA mechanics use them as a whipping tool more than any other airline, and they weren't happy about it. It is a strain on their work force.

In my humble opinion, ratting on someone should be your last resource and not your first. There are times when the offense is so aggregious or serious that you may need to use the FAA, but most times people use them just to assuage their egos.

So if your fellow mechanic believes there is a violation of the regulations what do you suggest he do?

 

[Flying low]

So if your fellow mechanic believes there is a violation of the regulations what do you suggest he do?

Maybe bring it to management first, then if they don't do the right thing call the authorities.

 

[robbedagain]

Why do you say US is aPOS?? yes things arent as good as they should be but US has been making money compared to AA

 

[FWAAA]

Why do you say US is aPOS?? yes things arent as good as they should be but US has been making money compared to AA

Making money should come pretty easy to an airline with lower labor costs than AA will have even if management is able to impose its concession "ask." Had the US pilots not cut their noses off to spite their faces (their multi-year seniority battle), US profits would be much smaller if not completely wiped out.

 

[Hackman]

I place a lot of faith and trust in airplane mechanics but I also place a lot of faith and trust in airplane pilots. If outsourced maintenance represented a real and substantial risk to safety, then wouldn't the professional pilots at UA, DL, US and WN (among others) refuse to fly airplanes on the basis that they were not airworthy? Each of those airlines employs licensed mechanics who presumably inspect and sign off on the airworthiness of airplanes. Even assuming that the A&P mechanics at those airlines pencil whip problems, wouldn't the pilots' self-preservation instincts serve as a backstop?

So what's the response? More name-calling and "you're not an A&P mechanic so your logic is irrelevant to the discussion." The tell-tale signs that your arguments aren't the winners.

Sure, Timco appears to have struggled. That's more an indictment of that one company than it is an indictment of outsourced maintenance. That should be clear to anyone capable of undertanding simple logic.

I'm sorry for the delay FWAAA, life other than a BB. I'm glad you trust the AMT and the pilots, that's very nice, gives a warm fuzzy to us. I'm sure from time to time, the AirTransat pilots that dead-sticked that zero fuel Scarebus A330 at 200k into the Azore Islands runway, with over 300 people onboard in 2001, wonder sometimes if the correct hyd line is installed this time so the engine fuel line on the FOHE isn't chaffed in half at FL 35. Trust is about all they got. The Professional Pilots can't see those fuel/hyd lines with the engine cowls closed, along with 99% of all the systems that could cause problems. I guess that's why modern aircraft today have so many back up systems, including this A330. These 300+ souls on flt 236 were among some of the luckiest to remain alive in resent years in my estimation.

The MRO's have a few licensed mechanics, that sign off everybody else's work I guess. Something you never do and has been drilled in your head since day one as a AMT. You think short handed MRO's are watching all tasks performed? Kinda doubt it to say the least.

That 777 is due out at 5am, so hurry up and get it out right now!!! At an MRO in China or El Salvador, that would be a no questions asked affair from the slaves that toil on $100 million dollar aircraft for next to nothing. Just go ahead and sign it off. It flew in, it will fly out....hurry up.


My response is your not an AMT, correct, very lucky for you. I'm sure your an expert at everything in your world...but not in mine. Your management, you see the cost of everything, and the value of nothing. You have no idea FWAAA, only what your told from your handlers and what your read in the press. There is a reason why Aeroman in EL SAL and other MRO's in China don't allow the press tours with cameras, and employees are forbidden to do any interviews. We at AA had tours and all kinds of kids coming through, no problem. What are the MRO's hiding?

You think the FAA is guarding the MRO programs in China, El Salvador, an Mexico? I think not, but that's my opinion along with many others in the field. They don't have the manpower or the resources overseas. Instead, they are camped out here in the states to watch the easy pickins'. Like MD80 wire tie spacing.

The pilots "self-preservation instincts" statement is laughable at best, when your aircraft is out of fuel..... :huh: To say the least...

Thank god for the RAT to steer the plane do some 360 turns to scrub off speed...

 

[cf6mech]

I'm sorry for the delay FWAAA, life other than a BB. I'm glad you trust the AMT and the pilots, that's very nice, gives a warm fuzzy to us. I'm sure from time to time, the AirTransat pilots that dead-sticked that zero fuel Scarebus A330 at 200k into the Azore Islands runway, with over 300 people onboard in 2001, wonder sometimes if the correct hyd line is installed this time so the engine fuel line on the FOHE isn't chaffed in half at FL 35. Trust is about all they got. The Professional Pilots can't see those fuel/hyd lines with the engine cowls closed, along with 99% of all the systems that could cause problems. I guess that's why modern aircraft today have so many back up systems, including this A330. These 300+ souls on flt 236 were among some of the luckiest to remain alive in resent years in my estimation.

The MRO's have a few licensed mechanics, that sign off everybody else's work I guess. Something you never do and has been drilled in your head since day one as a AMT. You think short handed MRO's are watching all tasks performed? Kinda doubt it to say the least.

That 777 is due out at 5am, so hurry up and get it out right now!!! At an MRO in China or El Salvador, that would be a no questions asked affair from the slaves that toil on $100 million dollar aircraft for next to nothing. Just go ahead and sign it off. It flew in, it will fly out....hurry up.


My response is your not an AMT, correct, very lucky for you. I'm sure your an expert at everything in your world...but not in mine. Your management, you see the cost of everything, and the value of nothing. You have no idea FWAAA, only what your told from your handlers and what your read in the press. There is a reason why Aeroman in EL SAL and other MRO's in China don't allow the press tours with cameras, and employees are forbidden to do any interviews. We at AA had tours and all kinds of kids coming through, no problem. What are the MRO's hiding?

You think the FAA is guarding the MRO programs in China, El Salvador, an Mexico? I think not, but that's my opinion along with many others in the field. They don't have the manpower or the resources overseas. Instead, they are camped out here in the states to watch the easy pickins'. Like MD80 wire tie spacing.

The pilots "self-preservation instincts" statement is laughable at best, when your aircraft is out of fuel..... :huh: To say the least...

Thank god for the RAT to steer the plane do some 360 turns to scrub off speed...

Well put, there is a hell of a lot of ignorance about what we do out there,.....funny thing is even most of the pilots dont know what we do.....they think they do. The day will come when outsourced cheap labor maintenance will show its ugly head,......its a credit to the manufacturers and their redundances nothing serious has happened yet.....but it will, and it will be a increasing trend.

 

[CactUS4Ever]

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/story/11196015/1/us-airways-captain-escorted-from-airport.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA
US Airways Captain Escorted From Airport
On June 16, captain XXXXXXXXX, a 30-year-pilot, was scheduled to fly an Airbus A330, which can carry nearly 300 passengers, on a flight from Philadelphia to Rome. But she declined to fly because of failures of both the auxiliary power unit, a backup source of electrical power, and the "hot battery bus," a primary source of electrical power.

The Company and the FAA got involved and after a thorough investigation She turned off the aircraft batteries deliberately as the APU spooling up. It was a job action and she got fired. Had nothing to do with maintenance.

 

[czerny]

We already have enough "placarding" going on in-house to cover Centreport in duct tape.
[/quote]

should I be concerned since I'm working in those 777s going to China? There's not a whole lot of places you can land on once you clear Canada. I once had a medical over Siberia and the captain specifically told me he didn't want to land there or anywhere in Russia. Imagine a serious mechanical or engine failure, where could we land? the last time I had an engine go out was on the way to LHR and we landed in YYZ in the middle of the night and we had to stay on board for 5 hrs while the passengers waited in a "sterile" area.

 

[787nightmare]

Well put, there is a hell of a lot of ignorance about what we do out there,.....funny thing is even most of the pilots dont know what we do.....they think they do. The day will come when outsourced cheap labor maintenance will show its ugly head,......its a credit to the manufacturers and their redundances nothing serious has happened yet.....but it will, and it will be a increasing trend.

Agreed. Somebody said some pilots toured a TULE hangar(might've been H5 don't know), but they were just amazed at how "deep" we went on the aircraft in OH.
They had no idea we took so much off/apart.

 

[FWAAA]

My response is your not an AMT, correct, very lucky for you. I'm sure your an expert at everything in your world...but not in mine. Your management, you see the cost of everything, and the value of nothing. You have no idea FWAAA, only what your told from your handlers and what your read in the press. There is a reason why Aeroman in EL SAL and other MRO's in China don't allow the press tours with cameras, and employees are forbidden to do any interviews. We at AA had tours and all kinds of kids coming through, no problem. What are the MRO's hiding?

More tired ad hominem attacks. You're better than that. Logic, Hackman. Logic. AA is the only airline based in the USA that, until late last year, performed 100% of its heavy airframe overhauls inhouse yet UA, DL, US, WN and B6 planes are not plagued with "airplanes falling out of the sky" syndrome despite the fact that the vast majority (nearly all) of their heavy checks (heavy C or D, as the terminology is not standardized) are outsourced.

I don't blame private companies in foreign countries, especially those located at airports, from banning the American media from having unfettered access to their business and their employees. If, on the other hand, inspectors from WN and B6 (both of which send planes to Aeroman, IIRC) are not permitted access, then those companies are obviously compromising safety if they let the chop shop disassemble, inspect and reassemble the airplane without any customer oversight permitted. Do those airline customers have any access or are they shut out of the process?

You think the FAA is guarding the MRO programs in China, El Salvador, an Mexico? I think not, but that's my opinion along with many others in the field. They don't have the manpower or the resources overseas. Instead, they are camped out here in the states to watch the easy pickins'. Like MD80 wire tie spacing.

Despite your continued ad hominem attacks, I completely agree. The absence of the letters "FAA" in my prior posts was no oversight on my part - I have no delusions that the FAA presence stateside improves the quality of maintenance at all. And the AA MD-80 wire tie spacing would be my key example. Government bureaucrats are fixated on non-safety of flight issues like one inch v 1.1 inch or whether the proper forms were completed and filed in the correct office. I couldn't care less whether an FAA bureaucrat deems something safe and airworthy here in the USA or in a foreign country - what matters to me is whether holders of A&P licenses employed by the airline-customer have overseen and approved the work. And if airlines are willing to hand over a hundred million dollar plane and not get to participate in overseeing the process - then that would be a mistake.

Should we be concerned about every return flight from PEK, PVG, NRT and every other foreign city because TWU-represented mechanics did not perform the overnight checks or the ETOPS checks before the return flight? Should passengers and crew be scared when flying home from these foreign cities because half a dozen mechanics from NYC or Tulsa or Fort Worth didn't come along for the ride to perform the inspections and routine maintenance prior to the return flight?

The President of the USA carries Air Force mechanics with him on every trip so that AF 1 is not seen or touched by anyone outside the organization. Should every flight by an AA plane (or by any USA-based airline) get similar insourced maintenance everywhere they fly?

There's legitimate concern and there's xenophobic fear-mongering hysteria. Keep banging the drum too often and loudly railing about all outsourced maintenance and you risk the audience concluding that your "concern" is really poorly disguised xenophobia.

 

[AANOTOK]

FWAAA,

Despite the argument about safety, or the lack thereof, how do you feel about the outsourcing of American jobs (USA) to other countries.
Are you of the Corporate mentality that if I can outsource it to a foreign country for half (if not more) of my current labor cost, that is the right thing to do. And, if you think it is, is it because it is better for the consumer or because it benefits both our shareholders and Corporate heads much much more. Love to here your take and any other who defends the outsourcing of jobs to other countries, including communist China...