which will it be? the ta or term sheet?

[dfw gen]

with that train of thought why have the pilots and flight attendants put anything up for a vote? surely the company offered something in negotiatations? is something better than nothing? or are we again subsidizing everyone else?

 

[Overspeed]

So what will it be? the update from the twu states that if we vote down the TA (we are not allowed to see yet) the term sheet gets imposed. I was under the impression that regardless if we vote it down its aa "last best offer" that gets imposed. the ta would be aa "last best offer". so voting is more symbolic to say yes we accept it or no we reject it OVERWHELMINGLY to show we have no choice. but in a service industry you should think twice about employee morale.

The judge rules on whether or not to abrogate the CBAs that's it. He doesn't write a new contract or change the existing one or pick the last best offer. If we vote it down, the judge rules on the motion to abrogate, and we get stuck with the term sheet and the ability to continue collective bargaining. After AA outsources I expect it will be hard to get that work back.

 

[CMH_GSE]

From what I read the TWU made the most progress with AA.

 

[Hopeful]

with that train of thought why have the pilots and flight attendants put anything up for a vote? surely the company offered something in negotiatations? is something better than nothing? or are we again subsidizing everyone else?

From what I heard that when the hearing started on Monday, each union attorney addressed the court and only the TWU announced a consensual agreement had been reached. We agree first, then others might get a slightly better agreement than ours. Has happened in the past.

 

[Kellerguy]

The judge rules on whether or not to abrogate the CBAs that's it. He doesn't write a new contract or change the existing one or pick the last best offer. If we vote it down, the judge rules on the motion to abrogate, and we get stuck with the term sheet and the ability to continue collective bargaining. After AA outsources I expect it will be hard to get that work back.

That makes for a very difficult decision for you folks, and from many of the comments I read on here it doesn't seem like everyone realizes this (if this interrelation is true).

 

[DallasConehead]

If it's 6 years with 1.5 raises ,, screw that, abrogate away Judge. I can't understand why you people would even entertain the thought of voting in something like that. You all come on here and talk a big talk but when it comes down to it, your sheeple.

Keep the work, my arse.... Even the negotiated term is going to have huge advantages for the company contracting out and getting rid of jobs. Lets face it, we're like the welfare airline with 20 guys per plane while the other legacys are running much fewer.

I predict you people will vote in the POS, and pilots and FAs will come out smelling like a rose.

 

[BigMac]

dfw gen, could you edit this topic to include a poll please?

 

[Rogallo]

That makes for a very difficult decision for you folks, and from many of the comments I read on here it doesn't seem like everyone realizes this (if this interrelation is true).

Please folks, find out the truth anywhere but on this forum...!!

 

[aapitbull]

If it's 6 years with 1.5 raises ,, screw that, abrogate away Judge. I can't understand why you people would even entertain the thought of voting in something like that.

That is correct, if it's six's more years it's not no but Hell NO!! do not fall for the fear the company is going to farm out what they want and keep in what they can do better or cheaper or both just like DL and UA

 

[TWU informer]

The judge rules on whether or not to abrogate the CBAs that's it. He doesn't write a new contract or change the existing one or pick the last best offer. If we vote it down, the judge rules on the motion to abrogate, and we get stuck with the term sheet and the ability to continue collective bargaining. After AA outsources I expect it will be hard to get that work back.

So we keep some of the work. We keep some heads, until via attrition more leave and more not replaced.

Management still cannot effectively manage the work.
Union still will not advocate accountability.

So all we have gained is a few more years of failure.

At what point do we actually demand real change instead of more of the same failures?

It does not make a damn difference what you claim about keeping work and heads using concessions.

If all involved refuses to calculate the human factor involved it is all bean counter non-sense.

Example: What happned when AA gained the unpaid 30 minute lunch?
The bean counter showed a tremendous savings, in reality the union member just started taking a 1 hour lunch.
Now we get paid our 30 minutes, and then the bean counter gets his unpaid 30 minutes.

In real life terms, did the 30 minute unpaid lunch generate the savings argued at the table? NO

So back to the real question.
Why does the TWU continue the same action expecting different results?

When is real change that will mean a real future come to town? I am tired of the watching the smoke and mirrors circus.
Only to have to give more later to fund its new arrival.

This time the grand idea is force those that would be laid-off to take a pay cut to keep their jobs.

Many Title 2 and Title 1 employees don't or wont do their jobs now.
What do you think will happen when they get to stay around but take a pay cut to do so?
I can see it now. That will not fix a damn thing, it will make the problem worse!!!!!

 

[Dilligas]

Keep the work, my arse.... Even the negotiated term is going to have huge advantages for the company contracting out and getting rid of jobs. Lets face it, we're like the welfare airline with 20 guys per plane while the other legacys are running much fewer.

The fact is you are behind the BK eight ball right now. I've been there, it sucks, and you do have some tough choices to make.

Yes your negotiated terms concessionary BK contract will suck. It will make you feel like you have lost so many of the things your group earned over the years and the bitterness is harsh. You and your group will lose much. When your airline is in BK, you as an employee are totally vulnerable, as the relative security of a contract and seniority can be wiped out by a judges gavel.

I would hope the TWU is communicating the facts and consequences clearly of either a yes or no vote and responding to your concerns.

The whole US Airways merger question is a separate issue from the decision you must make soon.

 

[TWU informer]

I would hope the TWU is communicating the facts and consequences clearly of either a yes or no vote and responding to your concerns.

Yes, the communcation will take place.

But as I said above, just because you place a lower paid worker into a spot and save his butt, does not mean you gain the dollar value placed on the table for that.

This whole idea reminds me of the bean counter who thinks "If a job takes one man, 4 hours to complete" then I can "put 8 men on the job and get it done in 30 minutes".

When in fact you cannot even get more than two men around or close enough to the job to allow then to all work to begin with. But on bean counter paper, using simple math, it all adds up to savings. No reality invovled just math and numbers.

The bean numbers are being used by the TWU to save jobs.
In the end, we fail to compete and be more efficient.
This is what happens everytime a company allows the Union to dicate the management policies.

Your own damn Union is going to destroy ALL of our jobs, by using bean counter numbers and mentality to save the union dues payer.

Do you get it yet?
How many times do you believe AA can drink this poison idea solution before everyone goes home without a paycheck?
It is INSANE thinking, but yet based on Business Admintistration Teachings it all adds up.

Also remember,

When AA Calculates the Cost Per Available Seat Mile,

That is a global calculation and never takes into consideration how many "8 Men Can Do the Job in 30 Miuntes" ideas are leaving workers stranded without work. Nor does it include how many 30 minute unpaid lunches are really 1 hour lunches. All that is considered is AA's global cost per ASM compared to the competitions cost per ASM.
This is why AA is failing....period.

The Union using the failed bean counters numbers against AA might very well protect some jobs short term, but it will also destroy ALL jobs long term.

Hence the Finance Department will never be able to over come piss poor management and union lack of accountability.
And I MEAN NEVER!!!!!!!

 

[1AA]

That's right Chuck!!
"They" the International will fight like hell to keep as many dues payers on the payroll. Even if it is at slave labor rates!!!
This is only to protect their outrageous 6 figure salaries, supplied vehicles and personal A6 travel for them and their families.

Correction: It is A5 travel not A6.

 

[Frank Szabo]

The judge rules on whether or not to abrogate the CBAs that's it. He doesn't write a new contract or change the existing one or pick the last best offer. If we vote it down, the judge rules on the motion to abrogate, and we get stuck with the term sheet and the ability to continue collective bargaining. After AA outsources I expect it will be hard to get that work back.

The "last and best" offer will be imposed if this is voted down. Everyone needs to block out a few hours and read a legal interpretation of the Chapter 11 USC (not from the TWU) and quit listening to company/company-union shills.

The difference between what would be imposed and what we'd end up with if this contract is bought is supposedly (per the company) if bought we'd get raises starting a year out and AMR would continue to administer the pensions even though they were frozen - not sure they could sell that to the judge anyway as it's part of their "last, best offer".

Don't forget the issue of the lowest holiday count in the industry - that's not conducive to attracting anything but those who want a foot in the door and will leave as soon as a decent job is available to them. Hard to imagine a judge would impose a contract placing compensation for the workers at a level most will run from at the first opportunity - that's how you strengthen/build a business - right?

I've been wrong many times before but it's the job of the judge to set up a company that's entered bankruptcy for a fighting chance of survival, not set up a "revolving door" type of company few (other than over-compensated stuffed suits) are willing to remain at or hire into. Imposing the term sheet would accomplish just that and this so-called TA isn't much better, still leaving the pay and benefits for AA's workers bottom-of-the-barrel. Others (not connected to AA, AMR, or the unions) in the courtroom are reporting the company's brass are having trouble justifying the severity of their "wants" to the judge.

Even though the judge will not rewrite any contract, he can deny the motion to impose, telling the company why. Many have opined for quite some time that AMR will not get all it wants from its employees. They obviously overstepped in their "wants". While an attempt to keep jobs is, on the surface honorable, the TWU only seems to be acting to ensure the dues payers kept around to pay for the international's lifestyle, hence being the only union that has come to an "agreement" with the company.

 

[CMH_GSE]

Frank, the only problem is, if the judge refuses to reject our contracts , it will be the FIRST time in 34 court cases that has happened.