What the deal AMP

[Hackman]

Which of you gave up pay in 2001?

Which of you gave up pay in 1995?

I've said before that the "giving" in 2003 looks different when looking at it alone vs. looking at it in the context of the 1996 and 2001 contract gains for the union.


No single drop of water wants to believe it is responsible for the flood, but if you want to look at it honestly, look a little further back than just the last contract negotiations.

Further back you say eole? Sure.

The 6 year TWu sellout of 1995 was the worst in TWu sellout history...until 2003 Mother of all Concessions. 6.5% for 6 years that was essentially a pay cut, this while the compAAny went on to make hundreds of millions in the late 1990's. I forget what year exactly, 1997 I think, 'ol Buffalo Bob Baker was hosting a Town Hall meeting and was asked by an AMT when the company was going share it's huge profits with the employees. Since the TWu International again peddled the company's line of "pour mouth" mantra in 1995 to it's membership.

Buffalo Bob's answer? You have a 6 year contract negotiated by the TWu, we will see at the end of it what we can do. Essentially GFY, too bad for you...I got mine.....sucka's.

Like Mr. Owens said, the short lived 2001 TWu contract negotiated by AMFA at NWA was a restoration for the 1995 TWu 6 year abortion.

The 2003 MOC was a loan to keep AA out of bankruptcy, and NOT permanent concessions like you have stated before. I know we're just supposed to just forget about it, (fat chance) but since mAAnagement has rewarded themselves with bonu$e$ every year for losing billions, let alone 500 million in just one quarter....

IT'S PAYBACK TIME!!!! shAAred sAAcrifice or Die!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The NMB hasn't released us because the NMB is biased towards the company. The mediator has no teeth except for "putting us on ice". There is absolutely no incentive for AA to negotiate a contract. Each day they can drag out this process is a day they make millions. So you are wrong.

Has the work-to-rule option been considered? From my limited experience this is a tactic that can motivate an employer to get a deal done. Fast.

 

[Hopeful]

Has the work-to-rule option been considered? From my limited experience this is a tactic that can motivate an employer to get a deal done. Fast.

As soon as we do that, the pro company pundits start criticizing like saying "Shouldn't you guys ALWAYS work to the rule?" and "Why are you taking out your labor woes on the poor passenger?"
The only thing the understand is DELAYS.....


"TIS THE SEASON"......FOR DELAYS NOW, FA LA LA LA LA, LA LA LA LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

As soon as we do that, the pro company pundits start criticizing like saying "Shouldn't you guys ALWAYS work to the rule?" and "Why are you taking out your labor woes on the poor passenger?"
The only thing the understand is DELAYS.....

Actually, the anti-unionistas will be saying stuff like "Shouldn't you guys always work above-and-beyond what is required?"
But seriously, a work-to-rule campaign resulting in massive delays/cancellations, for example, could probably be the most efficient way in getting a contract settled, especially if it is AA that is dragging their feet in negotiations. The customers may not realize exactly what is going on (mechanic job action), but the resulting "negativity" from delays/cancellations etc., could certainly get AA's attention.

 

[Hopeful]

Actually, the anti-unionistas will be saying stuff like "Shouldn't you guys always work above-and-beyond what is required?"
But seriously, a work-to-rule campaign resulting in massive delays/cancellations, for example, could probably be the most efficient way in getting a contract settled, especially if it is AA that is dragging their feet in negotiations. The customers may not realize exactly what is going on (mechanic job action), but the resulting "negativity" from delays/cancellations etc., could certainly get AA's attention.

Yes it woud have an effect. But mechanics need to take that initiative themselves. Can't actually call for a job action!

 

[odie01]

Actually, the anti-unionistas will be saying stuff like "Shouldn't you guys always work above-and-beyond what is required?"
But seriously, a work-to-rule campaign resulting in massive delays/cancellations, for example, could probably be the most efficient way in getting a contract settled, especially if it is AA that is dragging their feet in negotiations. The customers may not realize exactly what is going on (mechanic job action), but the resulting "negativity" from delays/cancellations etc., could certainly get AA's attention.

Yep, MM procedures and IPC ref. for every job. Standard practice, like we do now. Right?

 

[The Janitor]

Fact of the matter is Paul, we can use your help, and the help of any other Tltle 1 and 2 maintenance professional that would like to preserve what we have and get back what we gave away. This is not snake oil, its Democracy, we should not fear Democracy. Please go to http://www.ampnational.org/ and click on contacts and email or call your station amp organizer. You can also email questions through the website and a AMP stearing committee member will get back to you.
Thanks

while I think booting out the TWU should have already come to pass, I don't like the idea of the AMP consitution requiring outside professionals doing the negotiations. I imagine that clause of the constitution was crafted in there by the law firm doing business with the AMP. Such language empowers these 'experts'. Just not needed. Professionals should only be used as consulting people. The mechanics know full well what is fair and what is deserved and don't need any experts telling them.

 

[odie01]

while I think booting out the TWU should have already come to pass, I don't like the idea of the AMP consitution requiring outside professionals doing the negotiations. I imagine that clause of the constitution was crafted in there by the law firm doing business with the AMP. Such language empowers these 'experts'. Just not needed. Professionals should only be used as consulting people. The mechanics know full well what is fair and what is deserved and don't need any experts telling them.

Janitor, did you read ARTICLE XII NEGOTIATIONS AND AGREEMENTS in the AMP constitution? It states, " that a professional negotiator will assist and not assume duties of the chairmen. " Having a professional negotiator assisting our negotiating committee only makes sense, whould you go to court without a lawyer? We have NOT negotiated with a professional negotiator in the past, and look where we are today.

 

[The Janitor]

Janitor, did you read ARTICLE XII NEGOTIATIONS AND AGREEMENTS in the AMP constitution? It states, " that a professional negotiator will assist and not assume duties of the chairmen. " Having a professional negotiator assisting our negotiating committee only makes sense, whould you go to court without a lawyer? We have NOT negotiated with a professional negotiator in the past, and look where we are today.

What it means is that you will either have Kevin McCormick or someone like him. These guys don't know d*ck and all they do is bring in their laptops and plug in their money projections, then they tell you how much is on the table. It's a waste of money. The reason why you're in bad shape is because the TWU doesn't negotiate the old fashioned way. Leave the laptop boys and professionals at home, take your union officials away from the company bosses underpants, and let the voices of the masses speak out like they used to years ago. It wouldn't hurt to have a few elected officials with more than a high school education also so you can know and understand language and you can wrestle some of the power and control away from the attorneys.

Also, the recall language in the constitution creates a mess since any officer can be recalled by 30%. That's horrible because it can be triggered by something less than the majority. Therefore, cliques can potentially be big enough to stir division. Just puts more control with the attorneys if this is similar to how amfa works. If someone isn't doing their job, vote them out. Makes no sense to recall 'during a term' as it circumvents the normal democratic election process. Just my opinion, I think a 30% recall forces a balless officer with no authority otherwise he would be at risk of pissing off a remnant of workers who, being the minority, can still stir up a recall.

Whatever the case, the AMP allows incredible empowerments that you would never get with the TWU. And I have always been perplexed as to why so many American Airline workers would let a bus driver/subway union keep them hostage and continually sign such horrible contracts. How many horrible contracts does a union have to sign before the workers finally realize they are getting screwed?

 

[odie01]

Also, the recall language in the constitution creates a mess since any officer can be recalled by 30%. That's horrible because it can be triggered by something less than the majority. Therefore, cliques can potentially be big enough to stir division. Just puts more control with the attorneys if this is similar to how amfa works. If someone isn't doing their job, vote them out. Makes no sense to recall 'during a term' as it circumvents the normal democratic election process. Just my opinion, I think a 30% recall forces a balless officer with no authority otherwise he would be at risk of pissing off a remnant of workers who, being the minority, can still stir up a recall.

Whatever the case, the AMP allows incredible empowerments that you would never get with the TWU. And I have always been perplexed as to why so many American Airline workers would let a bus driver/subway union keep them hostage and continually sign such horrible contracts. How many horrible contracts does a union have to sign before the workers finally realize they are getting screwed?

Janitor, I think you may have misread the part about officer recall. The language in the AMP constitution states, "30% of the active membership may petition, THEN ,their is a simple majority vote of 50% plus 1 of the membership." Very Democratic !

 

[FWAAA]

Janitor, I think you may have misread the part about officer recall. The language in the AMP constitution states, "30% of the active membership may petition, THEN ,their is a simple majority vote of 50% plus 1 of the membership." Very Democratic !

Anybody else see the irony in The Janitor's posts? He's having trouble understanding the meaning of the text of a new proposed union's constitution and yet is complaining about using professionals in labor negotiations with a multi-billion dollar company staffed with highly educated professionals.

 

[767 mechanic]

What it means is that you will either have Kevin McCormick or someone like him. These guys don't know d*ck and all they do is bring in their laptops and plug in their money projections, then they tell you how much is on the table. It's a waste of money. The reason why you're in bad shape is because the TWU doesn't negotiate the old fashioned way. Leave the laptop boys and professionals at home, take your union officials away from the company bosses underpants, and let the voices of the masses speak out like they used to years ago. It wouldn't hurt to have a few elected officials with more than a high school education also so you can know and understand language and you can wrestle some of the power and control away from the attorneys.

Also, the recall language in the constitution creates a mess since any officer can be recalled by 30%. That's horrible because it can be triggered by something less than the majority. Therefore, cliques can potentially be big enough to stir division. Just puts more control with the attorneys if this is similar to how amfa works. If someone isn't doing their job, vote them out. Makes no sense to recall 'during a term' as it circumvents the normal democratic election process. Just my opinion, I think a 30% recall forces a balless officer with no authority otherwise he would be at risk of pissing off a remnant of workers who, being the minority, can still stir up a recall.

Whatever the case, the AMP allows incredible empowerments that you would never get with the TWU. And I have always been perplexed as to why so many American Airline workers would let a bus driver/subway union keep them hostage and continually sign such horrible contracts. How many horrible contracts does a union have to sign before the workers finally realize they are getting screwed?

By not having professionals in neg the company would be able to hood wink the neg team. Me personally I would prefer having the professionals in neg do to the fact they do that daily and would be a lot sharper at it than I or anybodyelse woulld be that does somthing every few years. As far as their laptops and Kevin McCormick goes I don't think that the NWA mechanics and related would have gotten the raise that they did in 2001 if not for having professsionals in neg and therefor we would not have recieved the raise that we had gotten in 2001. The company has professionals in neg and that is why they kick our asses all the time along with the fact that the twu sells us out so that they can put the 30 pieces of silver in their pockets. Neg the old fshion way as you put it is exactly what AMP is all about,allowing the membership to be in control. Having prof neg in the discussions with the company along with your elected officials doees not mean that the membership is not in control. It means that we have guidance unlike we have now. You answered your own question about why we should be having prof in neg by making the statement that it would not hurt to have some people in neg with more than a high school education. If we were noligable about the econemy,negotiations and had a education higher than high school we would not be mechanics and need their assistance, we would be professional negotiators. I think odie just answered your question about recall. I agree with you that AMP allows the membership to have more of the power than the twu. Oh and if we as membership decide not to have professionals in neg that will be our decision as a membership by having a vote and not having the elected officers make that decision for us. I hope this helps you understand why we have prof in neg. If you have any other questions please ask.

 

[The Janitor]

Anybody else see the irony in The Janitor's posts? He's having trouble understanding the meaning of the text of a new proposed union's constitution and yet is complaining about using professionals in labor negotiations with a multi-billion dollar company staffed with highly educated professionals.

I'm not having the slightest problem understanding the AMP constitution. Odie is the one who misquoted me.
I simply do not like the fact that a minority can trigger a recall. I believe that once the majority speaks in officer elections, it should naturally follow that the elected officer should have the full authority for the entire term. Giving the minority a trigger makes no sense at all. For instance, officer B loses his election but has 30% of the vote. Therefore, for political gain, Officer B, gets his minority to trigger a recall. OTOH, if a union insists on recalls, then I would appeal for a 50% trigger, not a 30%.

Regarding negotiations, I think we have already seen how a bunch of professionals can continually F*ck up negotiations. They just don't get it and many of them never had a blister on their hand.

Not until Labor learns to take the laptop boys out of negotiations and allow the true voice of the masses to be heard will Labor regain some of its footing. Mechanics don't need laptops and graphs to tell them how much they are worth, each of them already knows they are worth a whole heluva lot more than what management or the TWU wants them to think.

 

[odie01]

I'm not having the slightest problem understanding the AMP constitution. Odie is the one who misquoted me.
I simply do not like the fact that a minority can trigger a recall. I believe that once the majority speaks in officer elections, it should naturally follow that the elected officer should have the full authority for the entire term. Giving the minority a trigger makes no sense at all. For instance, officer B loses his election but has 30% of the vote. Therefore, for political gain, Officer B, gets his minority to trigger a recall. OTOH, if a union insists on recalls, then I would appeal for a 50% trigger, not a 30%.

.

I see what you mean now Janitor, you left out the 50% plus 1 part, and I thought you meant 30% plus 1 majority of the membership vote. Anyway, this is something that we can amend, if and when, AMP gets on the property, that's what a Democratic union is all about.

 

[aapitbull]

I'm not having the slightest problem understanding the AMP constitution. Odie is the one who misquoted me.
I simply do not like the fact that a minority can trigger a recall. I believe that once the majority speaks in officer elections, it should naturally follow that the elected officer should have the full authority for the entire term. Giving the minority a trigger makes no sense at all. For instance, officer B loses his election but has 30% of the vote. Therefore, for political gain, Officer B, gets his minority to trigger a recall. OTOH, if a union insists on recalls, then I would appeal for a 50% trigger, not a 30%.

Regarding negotiations, I think we have already seen how a bunch of professionals can continually F*ck up negotiations. They just don't get it and many of them never had a blister on their hand.

Not until Labor learns to take the laptop boys out of negotiations and allow the true voice of the masses to be heard will Labor regain some of its footing. Mechanics don't need laptops and graphs to tell them how much they are worth, each of them already knows they are worth a whole heluva lot more than what management or the TWU wants them to think.

Typical, Start pointing out what you think the flaws are with the AMP constitution and completely ignore the fact that the constitution is based directly off the pilots constitution and they have had no probltms with minority rights or using professionals in the past then throw in Kevin Mcormack {AMFA} and try to tye us to him. Lets all try to remember that this constitution as flawed as you may think it is stands as the only allternative we have right now to the TWU and compared to them its gold.We could have wriitten one from scratch and folks would have found problems with it to we decide to go with tried and trued winner and still the questions remain ok, keep the TWU see how that works for you!